EU, UK citizen, residence permit card necessary?

Hello,

Firstly... there is no such thing as 'UK citizenship'. The correct terms are 'UK subject' or 'British National'. 'Citizenship' refers to republics, like Hungary, and to the EU. This is an important difference, as passports are awarded by HM Government. Nationality (Allámpolgárság) has to be registered and a card issued by the Hungarian Immigration and Nationality Office (each town has one). Then the 'immigrant' needs to acquire a 'Lakcimét Igazoló Hatósági Igazolvány', a Residency permanent linked to a 'permanent' residence. The third requirement is the 'adóigazolvány' (tax declaration card) which confirms tax and national insurance payments and benefits (including health service entitlement). Any EU citizen living and working in Hungary requires all three, even if they receive payment in Euro or GBP, or in kind (company cars included). The only EU citizens not expected to acquire these are 'tourists' or 'guests' who can support themselves and simply have to register their presence in the country. They are not allowed to be salaried employees.
   
Andrew

P.S. To gain the right to residence, an EU citizen must have proof of salary or 'independent' means through marriage to a Hungarian citizen.

HungaryDragon wrote:

Firstly... there is no such thing as 'UK citizenship'. The correct terms are 'UK subject' or 'British National'. 'Citizenship' refers to republics, like Hungary, and to the EU. This is an important difference, as passports are awarded by HM Government.

Have a look at a British Passport.  Mine says clearly "British Citizen". 

The UK has some odd classifications of nationality. These include British Citizens (Overseas) and British Subjects.  Only British citizens have right of abode (right to live/work) in the UK unless the other classes are endorsed with permission. Eventually these anomalous citizenship types should disappear as time marches on (one would hope).  British Subject has disappeared already I believe and is now replaced with British Citizens (Overseas).

British passports are also issued by other colonies or territories with the British connection but these are not issued by HMG, they are issued by the government of the territory for the head of state (The Queen).  For example, an Isle of Man passport does not say United Kingdom on it. It says "British Islands" on the picture/data page and the front is different as well although of a similar design.  Others are also differentiated, like St Helena, Falklands, Jersey, Bermuda, Monserrat, Pitcairn and so on.  I believe only some of these passport holders have right of abode in the UK - Falklands etc.

kodaki wrote:

I have an enquiry regarding the residence permit and address card I understand to be necessary to reside in Hungary as a UK citizen.

When in doubt, go to the official EU rules:

http://europa.eu/youreurope/advice/docs/faq_en.pdf

Formalities
60.
I have been told that, as an EU citizen, I no longer need to apply for a residence card. Is this correct?

Yes. To reinforce the idea that EU citizens have a right of residence in another EU country independently from the holding of a residence card, this formality has been abolished for them and replaced (if so provided by the legislation of the host country) by an obligation to register with the local authorities.

(my personal note: In Hungary the legislation does require you to register with local authorities)

61.
How do I prove that I am legally resident, then, if I don't receive a residence card?

Your registration certificate is evidence of legal residence. Please note that it is not, however, a condition of legal residence; in other words, until you receive a registration certificate, you can prove your right of residence by any other mean available to the nationals of the host country.

62.
When should I register exactly: within my first 3 months of residence or when I exceed this period? I read contradictory information about this.

EU rules require registration (if applicable) only if you stay in the host country for more than 3 months. Therefore, you should not be asked to register before the expiry of the 3-month period

....

65.
What documents can I be asked to produce to obtain the registration certificate?

A valid identity card or passport and proof that you comply with the conditions for the right of residence, depending on your situation: a confirmation of engagement or certificate of employment, or proof of self-employment, if you are a worker; proof of enrollment at an accredited educational establishment and of comprehensive sickness insurance cover, plus a declaration or proof that you have sufficient resources, if you are a student; otherwise, proof of comprehensive sickness insurance cover and of sufficient resources.

.... (some conceptual examples)

70.
I am now well into my first year of residence in Slovenia and I realise I forgot to register withthe local authorities and I would like to put my situation in order. Do I risk being expelled?

No. However, depending on the country, you can be fined for failure to register. The fine must be proportionate with fines paid by the nationals of the host country for failure to comply with similar administrative obligations.

71.
I am on a 7-month posting in Belgium and I am staying at a friend's house. Do I still need to register with the local authorities?

Yes, since it is compulsory in Belgium for all citizens staying longer than 3 months in the country, as contemplated by EU rules. There is no exception for posted workers, persons without their own address or any other special circumstances.

Side note: In Hungary everyone is suppose to carry with them some type of photo ID. For easy of carry, and to avoid possible loss of the more important passport, getting a national ID card really makes sense.

It's worth pointing out some inconsistencies I've discovered in how these person registrations work in other countries and practically speaking what goes on:

In the UK, there is no central or decentralised registration system and no obligation to register with anyone. There may be a need to register for a local  tax at the local government but this is nothing to do with immigration at all.

In Romania, addresses are apparently shown in passports but not as far as I am aware in other country passports. Makes it strange for foreigners. Working there requires you to register as a person in a profession/job type which is a very odd requirement for unregulated workers (regulated = doctors, dentists, lawyers etc).

In Austria, you can get an EU foreigners registration card as there is no entitlement to a national ID card but as far as I know, actually applying for one is quite difficult as most local government people never see foreigners who need or even want one. People use their passports instead.  One of my colleagues told me the card was meant to prove you don't need...wait for it...a residence card. 

Registering in HU is in the law but actually there are some EU people around I've met who just don't bother if they are just visiting for extended periods over the summer, coming and going,  not working, retired and are covered by the EHIC (European Health Insurance Card) from their home countries.

fluffy2560 wrote:

some EU people around I've met who just don't bother if they are just visiting for extended periods over the summer, coming and going,  not working, retired and are covered by the EHIC (European Health Insurance Card) from their home countries.

If they are here for less than 3-months, especially if they are coming and going, they do not have to register in Hungary.

And I doubt anyone would get "caught" overstaying a continual short time over 3-months. Quite frankly, the human resources (and government costs) required to make everyone stick that exactly to the letter of the law would be enormous and not worth the cost to enforce except for opportunistically catching an "offender".

But the original poster said the residency would be for 4 years. For that long, failure to comply with local residency registration in Hungary is without excuse.

fluffy2560 wrote:

In the UK, there is no central or decentralised registration system and no obligation to register with anyone..... Registering in HU is in the law

I think that is the critical issue. UK citizens are not so use to be "registered", so seem to want to avoid it. But it is the law in Hungary, and they should respect Hungarian National law and register as residents in Hungary if they choose to live here as a resident. Even if it is a bitter pill to swallow.

klsallee wrote:

If they are here for less than 3-months, especially if they are coming and going, they do not have to register in Hungary.....And I doubt anyone would get "caught" overstaying a continual short time over 3-months. Quite frankly, the human resources (and government costs) required to make everyone stick that exactly to the letter of the law would be enormous and not worth the cost to enforce except for opportunistically catching an "offender".

I think the thing is that many of British people just don't see what it's for, why it's necessary and why it's anyone's business where one actually is. There's absolutely no culture of that kind of "reporting in" to some kind of authority.  This is one of the reasons why migrants tend to find it so attractive as they can move freely without proving to anyone who they are and where they are.

klsallee wrote:

But the original poster said the residency would be for 4 years. For that long, failure to comply with local residency registration in Hungary is without excuse.

Sure but I think there's another complication for the OP which is quite often unaligned to immigration purposes, Spending more than 90 days in country in any six months would start to make one look like one is resident for taxes. Spending more than 6 months (~183 days) in country would definitely make one resident.  In theory, coming in and out would make it more marginal and then other criteria (EU model is always the OECD model) would kick in (location of family, having a place to live etc).

klsallee wrote:

I think that is the critical issue. UK citizens are not so use to be "registered", so seem to want to avoid it. But it is the law in Hungary, and they should respect Hungarian National law and register as residents in Hungary if they choose to live here as a resident. Even if it is a bitter pill to swallow.

Well yes but actually it's not a criminal offence as far as I know, only a civil offence. I don't think it's really much of a bitter pill in reality.  Most of the Brits I've chatted with consider it just an annoyance and more like unnecessary interference and nosiness by the state.  Like, a who cares, why bother kind of attitude.

But yes, it is indeed the law.  They should respect the law but some people just don't bother and that's not just the British, it's quite a few others too. I met a retired German who lives in HU at least 1/2 the year, owns a house and told me never bothered to register as he goes home regularly - every couple of months - and believes the registration clock to be "reset" each time.  As he drives back, there are no real checks (at least previously) to say if he's in HU or not. 

But in Austria it's even worse. 3 days is the limit for visiting someone without registering.  Many people just ignore all that stuff because it's so stupidly short a time, one would be at the registration office to register and unregister all the time and time would be limited if it was a long weekend.  So they just don't bother with it.

For Hungarians,  quite a few of them do not actually live at their registered addresses but live in other properties they own or with their boyfriends/girlfriends/partners/relatives.  Which of course makes the system rather disjointed and potentially disfunctional! 

I have no idea what happens when a HU citizen leaves to work abroad. Mrs Fluffy and I discussed that when we were travelling around the world (we were away for years). She told me there was no mechanism for de-registering in any of these government systems. I mean, if leaving the country, does a HU citizen hand in their ID, tax and health cards?  No idea.

fluffy2560 wrote:

don't see what it's for

Convenience, for one. Carrying a small credit card sized national ID card is easier than carrying a passport. EU nationals with a national ID card can just flash their ID card at "passport" control in the airport. And they are easier to replace. While I have to dig out my bulky passport from its "secure" location.

And when dealing with many issues in Hungary (open a bank account, phone, water, power, etc), it is also just convenient to hand over my address card to the bank, telecom, power company, etc., so they can enter my address and send me my paperwork by mail when necessary.

fluffy2560 wrote:

why it's anyone's business where one actually is.

I honestly state ignorance about UK law. So I ask: if one gets a driving license, does not the government agency there know the address of the person with the license? If one gets a national health card, does not a government agency know your address? I have seen forum topics here about registering cars in the UK, and it seems that there is also an address issue (if not for the person, then for the car -- which a person owns, so is there maybe some link?).

If there is not any address linked to any government supplied services or documents, that I do find very interesting.

But if there is any type of address-document link, does not the UK government then know (or at thinks it knows) where you are anyway in one way or another, even if indirectly?

In any case, trying to avoid registration in Hungary with the argument that the government has no business to know where you are does seem to be a bit of a straw man argument to me. Seems more often an excuse to try to avoid some government mandate or another (e.g. taxes, or the many forum threads here which UK residents with cars in Hungary seem interested in figuring out how to deal with it when it comes to auto registration).

fluffy2560 wrote:

There's absolutely no culture of that kind of "reporting in" to some kind of authority.

IMHO: Oh well. Too bad. Most EU citizens come to Hungary of their own free will. And once here, one must know that different countries have different cultures. Adapt.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Like, a who cares, why bother kind of attitude.

And Hungarians know foreign nationals have this attitude, and some parts of the extreme political spectrum here use it to bolster their political rhetoric. Foreign nationals who have a "who cares" attitude are having an effect they may not be aware of.

fluffy2560 wrote:

For Hungarians,  quite a few of them do not actually live at their registered addresses but live in other properties they own or with their boyfriends/girlfriends/partners/relatives.  Which of course makes the system rather disjointed and potentially disfunctional!

My view is simple, and maybe unique: Some citizens of a country will always play cat and mouse with their government on many issues. That is their national dance. But once one moves abroad, as an expat, knowingly playing the same game as the locals in your adopted country is inappropriate. That dance is the national citizen's "right", not the expats (i.e. if one wants to waltz with a government, one should go home and dance in one's own country).

fluffy2560 wrote:

there was no mechanism for de-registering in any of these government systems. I mean, if leaving the country, does a HU citizen hand in their ID, tax and health cards?  No idea.

The Hungarian national ID card has no address information. No need to return a national ID card. The Hungarian national ID is like an EU/Schengen area passport. Treat is as such. Every Hungarian citizen has a right to a passport and national ID card, even if living abroad. And the national ID card, like most passports, expire after a few years on its own anyway. Anytime a Hungarian citizen can request a new national ID card, or just let the old one expire if they wish, again just like a passport. (side note: I quizzed my wife about this to get this information as she is familiar with this issue)

The tax number is yours for life. Even for expats. Keep the tax card, so you know your number to access retirement payments later, if you have any. My health card shows an expiration date. So if not renewed (if I do not keep making payments and get a new one), it will automatically expire.

Hungarian citizens should inform the tax authority (NAV) they left so the tax man knows not to expect taxes from that citizen. And should also give a contact address (in Hungary or abroad) -- after all Hungarian nationals are still able to draw from the Hungarian social office their retirement payments, even living abroad. And Hungarian nationals are still liable for income taxes on income in Hungary even if living abroad, so staying in contact with NAV is important.

Exapts if leaving the country, simply tell the tax office that you are leaving for good so they can close your file as inactive. Even so, for some expats the social payments an expat accrued in Hungary may still result in payments after retirement, so the file is inactive for "payments in" not necessarily for payments out to you after retirement. So a good idea to keep the tax office informed of your abroad address so you can get any money due you in the future.