How is it possible for Land seller to provide FAKE Red Book?

Hi,
Even Vietnamese citizens can't OWN land.  They have the LUR , land use rights of it. The state actually owns the land.  They can own whatever's constructed on the land, which is what the red book mainly refers to.

If your a foreigner you can only LEASE land , same with houses and apartments.  The lease is  50 years. At expiration of the lease the property reverts back to the original owner or his family.   Currently they say you have the option to renew the lease for a further 50 years, and PAY again.

So given that.  What is the value of this leasehold arrangement.??  If Yogi a foreigner and a Vietnamese citizen go to buy the same property,.....the Vietnamese guy gets to keep it forever and Yogi only gets 50 years.   Obviously the price should be WAY LESS than full market value for Yogi. 

Just look at the same deal in your home country in the USA.   If the seller said  he wanted the property returned to him FREE at a future date would you pay full market value.    Obviously not, you would want it to stay in YOUR family forever . 

Already here, the foreign buyers are sceptical about the Lease deal.   YOU ARE ONLY BUYING A LEASE.   You can already do that for peanuts and pay by the month.

Another thing to consider,  they say you can sell the "property".  That true.
BUT you can only sell the balance of the lease.  If you've held it for 10 years, you can only sell the remaining 40 of the lease.   Your " investment" will depreciate by the day.

But there is an upside........it's highly unlikely you'll ever have to pay capital gains tax.  Ha ha ha ha
Could you imagine what it would be worth if you or your heirs tried to sell it after 49 years.  Virtually Zero.

So as for the Red Book/ LUR, you will only be recorded as a Lease holder on it anyway.   The actual Lease agreement is all you have. 
Anyway, the main players in this new deal are foreign Multi Nationals who are leasing property's for their long term staff.   And those Lease payments will be TAX deductible.....😉

Hi

I have been keeping an eye on this cautiously. I have a (might be a stupid) question and need some experience folks to comment.

Let say, I bought a property for USD100k with a 50 years lease. Near the end of the lease, I sell it to a Vietnamese friend at the same value. Questions 1 - I was told he or she will then own it forever, right ?

Then we agreed that I buy the same property back at the same value + commission. Question 2 - Do I get to own it for another 50 years ?

At the end of the day, the concerns are the restrictions rather than the rights.

Please advise.

Thanks

Myker

Hi,
The VN , I've been told , can only buy the balance of the lease. He will still be a lessee.

The renegotiation for another 50 years will go back with the original LUR/Red book holder.

Look at it this way.

Let's assume we all live forever.   The VN guy sells the foreign guy a 50 year lease on his house.  If the lease isn't  renegotiated the VN guy gets his house back .       Correct...?

What do you think would happen if at the last minute YOU the foreigner sell the house to another VN and he gets to keep it forever.....

That original VN guy would be seriously pissed off.     Yup...there he was only days from getting his house back to keep, and you sell it , keep the money OR do a deal with someone else.

somehow Yogi can't see that happening.

Remember, you only EVER have the time remaining on a lease to sell.
Whoever buys it only gets the time remaining regardless of their nationality.

thuy4tien wrote:

ALL....... this is puzzling to me when I browsed thru the Forum containing information on Expats who want to buy land or property in Vietnam.  Let's say you want to buy land.  You talked to the Seller and agreed on the price. You pay for the land (or property) and he/she gave you the Red Book.  You find out that this is FAKE and you lost ALL of your money.

In the US, the part where the Seller and Buyer sit down to do the purchase is called CLOSING.  This is done at a neutral third party company who checks EVERYTHING to see if the land and owner is correct and that the buyer has all the money in hand.  The CLOSING company handles the transfer of title. 

I guess in Vietnam, things are done differently..... So how can a buyer protects himself???  If this is such a hassle and FILL with corruptions and bribes.... why bother? 

I read a posting from an avatar of Yogi Bear who said that the Vietnam housing market is going thru a MAJOR BUBBLE and (just like China's Ghost Cities) will soon collapse.  With the new law that was just passed on July 1, 2015 that allows foreigners to buy properties under their own names, this will cause a false sense of trusts from foreigners as they jump head on into a propped up housing market (namely in the District 7...Phu My Hung).

Are you Vietnamese? If you were, you should know that everything in VN belonged to the government. This is even when you paid for it with your own money. The government can always take it from you at any moment. You don't get the same protection as you would if you bought land in the U.S. I wouldn't waste my money on buying land here.

To All. It's a pink book not a red book. They have changed it more then 6 years ago to Pink. When you have a red book, you have to change it into a pink book.

Caveat emptor!
Not only in purchasing property but in all valuable purchases should consider it.
Why should you being cheated?
When you buy with your money, no need secret. Just verify everything, negotiate then make contract and sign in front of an authorized officer before you get your property registration document from the UBND. People who don't want to further hassles, just hire a local lawyer.
Still I am the same stand as I quoted before in many threads - buying land or apartment for the purpose of investment in Vietnam is stupidity. If you have some wedlock then I agree.
About the reformed land law. Government mainly consider non resident Vietnamese to return their fatherland and 'invest' and being part of national development. Together they draft some definition for Foreigners, that's all.
You shouldn't believe anyone but you! What you achieved in your lifetime is your sweat. Don't let others enjoy that!

Cloud9 wrote:

I wouldn't waste my money on buying land here.

Myker Zhen wrote:

Hi
Let say, I bought a property for USD100k with a 50 years lease. Near the end of the lease, I sell it to a Vietnamese friend at the same value. Questions 1 - I was told he or she will then own it forever, right ?
Yeah, as a Vietnamese citizen he/she can have more rights than foreigner and sell or transfer the same to anyone.
Then we agreed that I buy the same property back at the same value + commission. Question 2 - Do I get to own it for another 50 years ?
Do you think that 'agreement' whether it is oral or written has legal validity after these years? Yes, you can posses the land 'if' he return to you  I don't think he will be a good Samaritan then!
Myker

THANK YOU ALL....it is disheartening to read about the "jungle laws" that governs Vietnam...between this and what I read about the lawlessness and death wishes of Vietnamese drivers...I am not thrill to go there in the coming months.

I am Viet Kieu...I have been living in Texas all my life. I am trying to get as much information as possible before going there......THANK YOU Yogi Bear

charmavietnam wrote:

Myker Zhen wrote:

Hi
Let say, I bought a property for USD100k with a 50 years lease. Near the end of the lease, I sell it to a Vietnamese friend at the same value. Questions 1 - I was told he or she will then own it forever, right ?
Yeah, as a Vietnamese citizen he/she can have more rights than foreigner and sell or transfer the same to anyone.
Then we agreed that I buy the same property back at the same value + commission. Question 2 - Do I get to own it for another 50 years ?
Do you think that 'agreement' whether it is oral or written has legal validity after these years? Yes, you can posses the land 'if' he return to you  I don't think he will be a good Samaritan then!
Myker

Thank You Charma for your clarification!!

The confusing situation regarding foreigners buying property is going to get worse quickly - a friend in Hong Kong just told me that a plane load of potential buyers including her boss are on the way here - another friend said agents are doing the same in Korea, Singapore, China, Japan, Taiwan etc. So we have these "agents" spreading the word globally that "VN is open for business".....and come quickly with your money......many will be disappointed I suspect.

I was at HSBC HQ in HCMC yesterday and happened to ask one of the managers for the latest on property as I have a foreign company I am advising who may want to buy land and build a factory - his response was very clear......DON'T BUY PROPERTY OR LAND IN VIETNAM NOW OR IN THE NEAR FUTURE. He also said that HSBC has hundreds of requests from foreigners asking for information on loans, mortgages, money transfers etc. He commented that the notoriously poor communication from government after such a decree comes out remains a concern. As of yesterday he noted that the VN banks have not received any guidance from the government on how to deal with property for foreigners.

I guess the other issue is foreigners selling their properties (eventually) and not being able to take the money out of the country.....thats another issue. Was with a visa lawyer yesterday who has 10+ VN business people with 3-5 million USD each and are ready to move to Australia (entrepreneurs visa?) but need to get the money out of VN first...

That's very sobering .    If people only knew how murky things here are.
I have friends in the Investment Banking game in Hong Kong,  I've worked in that field myself and still dabble as an "online nomad"

Those guys in HK said exactly the same as your guy at HSBC.    Word for word actually😄

If I were to suggest to a client to go to Vietnam and buy property I would have been shown the door.

I've said in other posts.     The only smart money that comes here is in the following form.

Tax payers money......... ............joint govt infrastructure projects
Shareholders money .................the Multi Nationals
Banks Money............                 Developers
Private equity.   ...........              entrepreneurs

Your own money. .............        ??????

Ottvantor wrote:

The confusing situation regarding foreigners buying property is going to get worse quickly - a friend in Hong Kong just told me that a plane load of potential buyers including her boss are on the way here - another friend said agents are doing the same in Korea, Singapore, China, Japan, Taiwan etc. So we have these "agents" spreading the word globally that "VN is open for business".....and come quickly with your money......many will be disappointed I suspect.

I was at HSBC HQ in HCMC yesterday and happened to ask one of the managers for the latest on property as I have a foreign company I am advising who may want to buy land and build a factory - his response was very clear......DON'T BUY PROPERTY OR LAND IN VIETNAM NOW OR IN THE NEAR FUTURE. He also said that HSBC has hundreds of requests from foreigners asking for information on loans, mortgages, money transfers etc. He commented that the notoriously poor communication from government after such a decree comes out remains a concern. As of yesterday he noted that the VN banks have not received any guidance from the government on how to deal with property for foreigners.

I guess the other issue is foreigners selling their properties (eventually) and not being able to take the money out of the country.....thats another issue. Was with a visa lawyer yesterday who has 10+ VN business people with 3-5 million USD each and are ready to move to Australia (entrepreneurs visa?) but need to get the money out of VN first...

Holy CROW!!!  Now that is a frightening thing to hear...I never thought of "transferring your own money" out of VN could pose such a problem.  Communism at it's best... huh?  It's just getting better every time I read this board..... NOT!!    Thanks for this insight @Ottvantor

Oh yes,  very easy to bring it in.  BUT they come up with all sorts of bullshit reasons to prevent you taking it out.   If you want to bring a big chunk of money in I would only deal with the Foreign banks here.    Even then it gets tricky.

I friend here recently transferred USD$250k.  He had it deposited as VND.  The property purchase fell through and now what does he do. ???   He's getting the runaround.

I was advised that prior to bringing funds in you have an agreement in writing ( for what's that worth here) that the funds are Temporary investment and can be transmitted back to the Original bank it came from.

There's a guy in Vung Tau with $200,000 USD that can't get it out.   He was going to buy property but pulled out of the deal and decided to go back to the US.    His mistake was changing banks here.  He broke the chain by taking the money and putting it into another bank .   They will only transfer it as VND back to the other VN bank.  As far as their concerned it's money acquired in Vietnam.  They won't even look at the other banks payment advices.

So....last I heard he was taking it out in USD $7000 lots (airport limit) and flying to places where he can move it easier, and buying gold.

For me, as a foreigner my bank Vietcom won't let me deposit VND cash into my own account.  I can only bring it in Via O/sea TT .   That's why I only transfer enough for 3 mths living costs at a time.

I even had my ATM card stolen.  First thing I did was stop the card and then cleared the account just in case .    Once they supplied a new card I tried to re deposit the withdrawn cash and they wouldn't let me.    All sorts of reasons.. They think it's wages we haven't paid tax on etc etc etc.

So...Yogi dug a hole and buried it. 😄

Hi there,

Foreigner cannot buy land in Vietnam, only the walls.

Somo agency

judicael wrote:

Hi there,

Foreigner cannot buy land in Vietnam, only the walls.

Somo agency

Yes they can. We have the Pink book to prove it. Every time I read a post like this I open my safe, get the book out and just laugh. Was it easy? No. But It can be done. Yes the book includes both the house and the land. It wasn't purchased as an investment, but as our retirement home. That being said I'm currently in the process of purchasing another piece of property for investment in Soc Trang which is another province south of where we live. A small piece of land with a house on it in a peaceful residential section of town. The seller isn't asking much and I've got the time, money and expertise to finish the deal.

You are right about the books except my understanding is the red book is for land pink book for house land & every thing on the land. I've had both. I've got 2 properties in VN.  The purchase of the first property went smothly the second 1 after 15 months things are not fully settelled and still a long way to go but I'm in it for the long hoal.
I will say the properties are in different provences which I beleive may be a factor.
What I've learnt-  you must have your land independently surveyed before you buy. Especially if there is a house on the land 
Your house may not be on your land you paid for. Then you have to buy more land if they let you that is
Always use a lawyer. Check out the lawyer. Ask to speak to his clients for references.
Dont beleive the seller check things out for yoursekf  NEVER beleive an agent. If you use an agent DON'T their contracts or documents as they are NOT licensed like in USA and don't have personal indemnity insurance. They stuff up you pay for their stuff ups. I know of a case where the purchaser has had to pay twice for the same land
If you dont use a lawyer and use an agent at least make sure that the vender's name on the sales contract is the same name as the owners name on the  red book for land pink book for house & land. I know of a case were the names were not the same and when the westerner questioned it with the agent the response was "that's how things are done here"
I'm sure since 1 July 2015 as foreigners  can now buy land in VN it's going to take a bit of time for things to settle down and some protection measures put in place to protect foreign investors and the bad doers face the conciquences of their criminal actions otherwise sadly as many foreigners have already decided to do & invest in other countries where things go smoother

Kingy888 wrote:

You are right about the books except my understanding is the red book is for land pink book for house land & every thing on the land. I've had both. I've got 2 properties in VN.  The purchase of the first property went smothly the second 1 after 15 months things are not fully settelled and still a long way to go but I'm in it for the long hoal.
I will say the properties are in different provences which I beleive may be a factor.
What I've learnt-  you must have your land independently surveyed before you buy. Especially if there is a house on the land 
Your house may not be on your land you paid for. Then you have to buy more land if they let you that is
Always use a lawyer. Check out the lawyer. Ask to speak to his clients for references.
Dont beleive the seller check things out for yoursekf  NEVER beleive an agent. If you use an agent DON'T their contracts or documents as they are NOT licensed like in USA and don't have personal indemnity insurance. They stuff up you pay for their stuff ups. I know of a case where the purchaser has had to pay twice for the same land
If you dont use a lawyer and use an agent at least make sure that the vender's name on the sales contract is the same name as the owners name on the  red book for land pink book for house & land. I know of a case were the names were not the same and when the westerner questioned it with the agent the response was "that's how things are done here"
I'm sure since 1 July 2015 as foreigners  can now buy land in VN it's going to take a bit of time for things to settle down and some protection measures put in place to protect foreign investors and the bad doers face the conciquences of their criminal actions otherwise sadly as many foreigners have already decided to do & invest in other countries where things go smoother

The Red book was replaced  and consolidated into  what is the now called the Pink Book. This was done about 6 years ago. It put the land ownership and house into the same document. The people that still hold onto an old Redbook are those that have a property dispute with either their neighbors or relative's. Where some members have came up with the law that after 50 years if an extension is not approved it reverts back to the original  owner is beyond comprehension  even by Vietnamese standards.

😄😄😄. Beyond comprehension by Vietnamese Standards.   
That in a nut shell says it all.

It's simply a mess , no one seems to know if the new "draft" proposals have actually become law yet.    Too many grey areas.  Lawyers are having difficulty drawing up contracts since there's nothing concrete to base them on.

Sooner or later the "Joe average-punters"  will get their heads around what the word LEASE actually means.    The Japanese and Singaporeans have figured that out and walked away already.


In the last 12 months currency's have fallen against the USD which the VND is tied to, therefore making these properties a lot more expensive. A friend here has put down a deposit on a $400k property in Saigon. Settlement on completion.  Since the deposit , the AUD has fallen 25% against the VND.   If forecasts are anything to go by and the currency drops further ,,that property will really cost close to $600k.   Whoa...
Then again,   It could have gone his way .
That's the risk you take paying in another currency.

Anyone here doing a deal like that would need to be aware of the risk of currency fluctuations

Malaysia has best foreign ownership system in SE Asia, and the Ringitt has devalued recently.  However Foreigners are restricted to a price level to protect the local market.   But the build quality and value for money is way ahead of VN.   Penang and Putra Jaya have some nice housing estates.

Let's be honest, some of the places here look like glorified slums slapped together in shitty backstreets and alleys littered with rotting garbage.

Not what I'd ever want to call home.

this is vietnam...ANYTHING can be faked!!

If you give your money before checking with the government authority the deed of the property, you are a fool...!
In any country in the world, not just in Vietnam.
Vietnam is just more relax and you have to be more cautious but...
This is why we are here no.?
More relax..!
Vietnam is a very old country but a completely rebuild very new Republic after colonialism & war..
I reside in Vietnam 13 years, I saw change & improvements..
I understand and allow for mistakes
Some I like and sure, some that I do not like too much
But... When the one that I don't like are too numerous, I will return home without putting my nose where it does not belong.. ..
Today I say... I like Vietnam, the people of Vietnam, the food of Vietnam,
Thank you Vietnam for having me for so long..
I am really enjoying your hospitality ..
We all should try to help without critics, I know..Its not always easy..!
To all Have a great time!
Enjoy your retirement as I do..!
Good bye
John P Buvet

Vietnam, is  a one-party Communist state. The government does what is best for the government. A democracy is about the people and for the people.

Can't expect property rights to be the same. Read up on the different government entities and you will understand property rights as per the government.

A democracy has the right of eminent domain to acquire properties a communist country claims the property as its own.

A property claimed by eminent domain is paid market value A communist party pays nothing.

Also, in most countries title insurance is bought by the buyer and seller tto protect the buyer and seller from any defects on title. A third party  "Escrow," only assures all parties that the contract agreement is enforced.

In a contract, what both parties agree upon, is what will be enforced by escrow.  No changes without mutual agreement.

In the case of fluctuating monies, the parties should agree to value...

I recall about 10 years ago the Mexican govenment retracting leased land to foreigners. Foreigners living on their leased and bought land were vacated . Vietnam is a communist government...!!!

Had an experience several years ago in Vung Tau. Bought a plot of land with the intention of building a house. Had all the paperwork which all had the correct stamps and everything else needed to make it official. Got a surprise when someone else starting building on the land. Turned out the the seller had sold it to two different people. The following court proceedings took 2 years and we eventually got our money back. The sellers were a husband and wife team who were teachers and had done similar stuff before. How the paperwork managed to get all the official stamps was never explained and I'd be surprised if the teacher couple did not do it again. They had our money for over two years. Never again

That's what we says, "Everything is possible in Vietnam" because of ignorant office staffs 

25 posts to this thread and nobody's answered the OPs question. Its virtually impossible to be given a fake pink book here. The process that a person goes through if its done correctly are enough to make sure you have a valid document. When the pick book is issued it will have a lot of information on the front to include your name and nationality. Down on the bottom right hand comer of the first page also has a serial number that's assigned by the issuing authorities for that piece of land. On the last page there is also a special bar code again on the bottom right hand side of the page. Inside are the measurements of the land and also the house on that land. You also have to go to the gov office to sign for it, they don't issue it down at Smokeys Bar & Grill over a beer. To many checks and balances in the system to get a Fake Book.

Rick

Hey Budman1,

You wrote that "25 posts to this thread and nobody's answered the OPs question. Its virtually impossible to be given a fake pink book here."

I understand the question being, "So how can a buyer protects himself???"  Since you mentioned "Checks and Balances,"  are there various agencies signing off on the pink book? And does having a pink book guaranty ownership?

Some have written that they experienced 2 different buyers claiming property ownership, both having pink books to the same property. ???

@tejedaalex

Is this the thread your referring too?
"Had an experience several years ago in Vung Tau. Bought a plot of land with the intention of building a house. Had all the paperwork which all had the correct stamps and everything else needed to make it official. Got a surprise when someone else starting building on the land. Turned out the the seller had sold it to two different people. The following court proceedings took 2 years and we eventually got our money back. The sellers were a husband and wife team who were teachers and had done similar stuff before. How the paperwork managed to get all the official stamps was never explained and I'd be surprised if the teacher couple did not do it again. They had our money for over two years. Never again"

It sounds like they had a lot of stamps and paper work but had never been to the point of having the Pink book issued to them. Scams happen any where you just have to have a good lawyer to sort things out. To answer your other question. Yes, the pink book guaranty's ownership. A simple check if you have any doubts is to have the clerk enter the serial number on the first page or scan the bar code on the back page into the system. The real owners name should pop up with all the relevant information concerning the land and house ( if there is a house on the land).

Rick