LAWYERS ????WOW.....can I avoid them ?

Couple of tips:

- Lawyers are NOT necessary for any normal transaction (banking, real estate, etc.) but market these areas as services provided to expats because they have nothing else to do are usually the ones leading expats into believing they need a "trusted" lawyer involved.  In fact, most business can be conducted without one IF YOU ARE FLUENT in Spanish and have decent sophistication in the particular matter.  Panamanians do not as a rule seek to inform you of what you need to know.  If you walk into a bank to open an account, you're more likely to see long lines and blank stares.

- Lawyers in Panama are not bound by any code of ethics and face no material repercussions from how they conduct themselves and the judicial system in Panama is so inadequate that threats of civil action are ignored.  Lawyers might do as you ask, but might chose NOT to do so.  Conflicts of interest exist all the time.  For all the criticisms, lawyers in the U.S. are far more trustworthy because ethical boards and courts impose serious risks for dishonest or unethical behavior.

- Never trust a stranger, including an expat, in Panama.  Sorry, but too many people prey on people like you for their own gain.  If you do not speak Spanish, you may well find out your bank account was set up in the name of your "friend" or lawyer.

- Banks in Panama are not marketing much to expats because there's no money in maintaining thousands of low balance checking accounts while trying to comply with FATCA and KYC requirements.  In other words, expats (including Canadians) are less and less desirable as clients.

In summary, the value of lawyers is their fluency in Spanish and being accustomed to dealing with other Panamanians not wanting to do their job.

SawMan wrote:

In summary, the value of lawyers is their fluency in Spanish and being accustomed to dealing with other Panamanians not wanting to do their job.

I totally agree with this based on my experience so far. You don't need a lawyer to open a bank account, but be ready to walk into many banks before succeeding. You do need a lawyer to handle immigration matters, such as a permanent residency application and related paperwork.

"Lawyers" in Panama is spelled "LIARS" !!! You will search long and hard to find one you can trust. Most only have a basic knowledge of the law. Basically bcoz most don't have a real law degree and don't need to pass rigorous exams.

The number one rule in dealing with lawyers here is NEVER PAY THEM UP FRONT!!! You will grow an arm out of your ass before they do what you need done the way it's suppose to be done. I've been here over 10 years and am on my 6th lawyer. Everything from immigration screw ups to RE tax problems bcoz the idiot never filed the forms for my exemptions on and on.

Now problems with the labor board with a worker who quit and now wants over $5000.oo in compensation. Now he's in for a big surprise next week. But it took 3 lawyers to pull it off !!!! We finally got one who knows the law and how it works due to their experience working at the labor board.

Here's some free advise.....never put your money in a bank here. Open a FOUNDATION and have everything you own gifted to the Foundation. That includes RE, cars, boats, guns, jewelery, metals, furniture etc.. Anyone can get your stuff here through unscrupulous means. So if it's in a Foundation and you are the BENEFICIARY and DIRECTOR  with signature power, no one can change the Foundation and it can't be encumbered by any entity including the IRS. Put yor cash bank account in the name of your Foundation with only your signature. No FACTA BS to put up with. Also, you can block your RE properties for 2 years by putting a block on it. It takes 5 minutes and no one but you can remove it, even the gov't. is stopped. The lawyers won't tell you this and other tidbits bcoz it makes their jobs null and void.

This is a backwards Country and almost every day the laws change and NEVER for the benefit of the gringos. Their systems here are both based on redundancy and incompetence. Everything you do will need a Notary stamp for the stupidest things. Ponderous man, just ponderous!!!

In closing, when you think you have the hang of it...wait till you have to get your drivers license!!!! If your NOT fluent in Spanish...forget about it!!! Most Latin American countries provide most gov't forms in English if needed. NOT PANAMA!!   Good Luck with your new nightmare!!!

I concur with SawMan, adriano72, and username609.  Ask yourself if you really need to open a bank account in Panama.  I lived there for 10 months and never needed to open a local bank account.  Unless you plan to mortgage the purchase of property, you may not need to open a bank account.  I relied on credit cards for rent, bills, food, supplies, entertainment, pharmacy, and even restaurants.  Dependable ATMs are available.  Use the ones in hotels for safety and supply of cash.

We had a dependable lawyer who handled our Visa.  She was fluent in English and only asked for a deposit of $500 to start the process.  This was not for her fee, but to pay for the fees at immigration.  Everything went perfectly.  She was also available for notarizing papers.  As usernam609 stated, almost everything requires notarization in Panama.  A Panamanian told us where to go in the city to have papers notarized for $10.  There are notary offices all over PC and it is cheaper than having a lawyer do it.  SawMan is correct, though, our lawyer's assistant offered to help with other things, like getting a driver's license or opening a bank account.  It seemed to be a way for the assistant to make some money but it also gave the impression that we needed assistance to do these things. 

SawMan's comments on expats preying on fellow expats is so true.  Some expats are living on a tight budget and try to earn extra money by selling things to other expats, especially newbies.  Expats sell makeup, jewelry, private tours, rides to and from places, and even real estate.  Some push rentals and some will say, "I have a nice little casita for rent".  Some expats will work for a free lunch, others charge a fee.  On one of the Ecuador Forums, someone said that, "The most dangerous thing in Ecuador was an expat with a business card."  (Sorry, I do not remember who it was)  I think the statement is true for Panama as well as Ecuador.

I wanted to thank you very much for your valuable input. Best Regard, TDH

I live in Panama City and have worked for two Panama law firms.

The only area where the government requires that you use a Panama lawyer is immigration.  Only Panama lawyers can make the application for a visa.

Steven Rich, MBA

Thanks for all this information as I am about to move there in August and really thought I needed an attorney for everything.  How is a foundation set up?  Where can I find more info on that?  Thanks

Hi Da Sun God > I would invite you to start a new topic with your questions on the Panama forum. Thank you.

Here is a link to an English speaking Panama law firm's website which has 10 articles which I wrote explaining everything you need to know about a Panama Private Interest Foundation which costs $1,400 USD to set up including the first year's government registration fee:
panama-offshore-services.com/offshore_foundations.htm

Steven Rich, MBA

Thank you Steven for your valuable comments here and elsewhere.

Could I possibly clarify a point concerning the requirement to retain a lawyer in Panama to handle immigration matters?  Does legislation in Panama actually require that a lawyer be retained for any immigration application, or is this a requirement imposed by the Immigration department? Or is there just a requirement that all original and translated documents be notarized by a notary/lawyer, for example?

The reason I ask is that in Canada, for example, potential immigrants can actually do immigration applications  themselves if they believe they can (with all relevant documents notarized  by a lawyer/notary), or they can retain a lawyer, or a regulated immigration consultant. I am wondering if the Panama law is similar.

Of course there are very valid reasons why one would choose to retain a Panama lawyer for immigration matters,but is the option open for someone to do it on their own?

Thank you for any information you can provide.

Dear Cold Canada,

Panama law requires that all immigration visa applications be filed by a Panama lawyer.  Unlike Canada and other countries, a foreigner cannot apply for an immigration visa on his or her own.

When it comes to Panama immigration applications, you can't avoid lawyers.

Steven Rich in Panama

As a lawyer I want you to put that frown upside down!

We used **** for our residency and were very happy ****  As others have said, you don't need a lawyer for most other things. A friend introduced us to his friend who worked at Scotiabank and after the usual pile of papers, we had a bank account. You don't have to have a bank account here but it's been useful to do some things on line, like put money on my phone, and I feel better having a local backup credit card.

** helped us with our drivers licenses and cedulas  ****  We could have done it ourselves but since we don't live in Panama City and he is very familiar with the process, it was much easier and cost effective to pay him to run around. We have found it easiest to have Panamanian friends, and they can connect you with trusted people to do business with. I agree with what others have said. Just because someone is a fellow expat doesn't mean they are trustworthy.

My $.02 worth, keep life as simple as possible, especially for the first year. Don't buy property or make any major changes. Keep your US bank accounts and a safety net back home. Find a family member or trusted friend to serve as your US address. The first year is for getting to know your new country, making friends and connections, learning your way around and then you will be in a much better position to make decisions for the future. You don't even need residency if you are OK with making a few border runs to keep your drivers license and visa current. The best things you can do when you are preparing to move (IMO) is to decrease the amount of stuff in your life, and learn Spanish. Don't make it more complicated than it has to be.

Hi all

I have been dealing with Denfablaw...in particular Ricardo. He is quick in answering emails, and has the whole immigration thing down pat. You definately get the idea this ain't his 1st rodeo...or 100th!
One example: he has a staff member that goes to the immigration office at 6.30am to get a number for you as soon as they are issued. Come 8am, you arrive at Denfablaw's office, an associate takes you to the immigration offices, and you're one of the 1st being seen...thanks to the guy that went at 6.30am! No standing in long queues.
The associate explains what you are signing and why (staff there don't speak a lick of English), ensures that the staff have provided ALL the required docs for you to complete, and hands it all over to the staff member.
Ricardo and his staff have immediate online access to all the docs needed to register the visa application, register the company needed to protect your assets, etc.
I suppose that, if you are fluent in Spanish legalese, it would be pretty simple to do this on your own...but I'm not. So I happily pay the lawer and his staff to ensure all is done 100%.

@wannamovetopanama

Everyone can open a bank account in panama. You do not need a lawyer, but u do need references, like from ure current bank. An adress, preferably not a hotel, and a panamanian phone number. Oh and cash too deposit. To be sure(cuz banks dare to change their requirements) bring a proof of income.

Hello Beautiful People! ☀️

I don't know if it's allowed here, but does anyone have a good recommendation on it in immigration attorney? I'm researching on my own now, but it sure would be nice to have a recommendation of someone that you've worked with to get my Pensionado Visa.

Did your attorney's fee also include getting you the Cedula card?  My first quote was $1650 including the cedula card. when I told her that was too high that I have been researching and heard (YouTube) you can spend $1100. She then said she would charge me $1450. 🙄😂    Really… Now She all of a sudden has a discount???😂

Don't get me started on the ex Pat YouTuber that won't give you the referrals of her attorneys that charge the $1100 unless you pay the $595 online guide fee! 😳😂 Everybody needs to make a buck! 😂

I am a researcher, so I will trudge along and try to find a reputable attorney, but any referrals would be greatly appreciated. If you can't put them there, please inbox me.

Thank you kindly for your time. I'm excited for my life in Panama 😊🌟🎉