VietNam: A popular US retirement destination?

Jaitch, in re:  "Many end up retreating into an “expat bubble.”

That's my observation of expats worldwide. People tend to look for and congregate with others who share the same language and culture, even in countries where the national language is far easier to learn.

My local pub in Seoul was owned by a Kiwi married to a Korean with a varied Commonwealth and U.S. clientele. Non-English speakers were rare, and seldom returned. But even English speakers had their national subclans. Gaelic football and hurling nights would be crowded with Irish. Rugby (Footie) nights would be dominated by Aussies and Kiwis with a few mixed commonwealthers such as South Africans mixed in. Cricket nights generally cleaned out the U.S. and Canadian crowd, but they returned en masse for U.S. Football. Soccer would see a fairly mixed crowd with Subcontinentals and even some Koreas. If the "Reds" were playing, the streets outside would be mobbed with Koreans gathered around the neighborhood 'telly' watching the same game as the expats inside.

The majority of clientele were English teachers during sports nights, with a mix of local GIs on off nights. The only expats who really interfaced with the locals were those who either spoke the national language like natives, or had civilian positions in local businesses which put them into certain local social circles.

I sure hope it never becomes a popular destination for US retirees, and I doubt it will be anytime soon.  For the most part, it's a country that is way out of the comfort zone of a typical American.  There's a reason (many of them, actually) US retirees go to Florida -- it's neat and safe for them there.   No hassles.  That's not nearly the case in Vietnam.

DanFromSF wrote:

I sure hope it never becomes a popular destination for US retirees, and I doubt it will be anytime soon.  For the most part, it's a country that is way out of the comfort zone of a typical American.  There's a reason (many of them, actually) US retirees go to Florida -- it's neat and safe for them there.   No hassles.  That's not nearly the case in Vietnam.

I think some of what you've said is true (US retirees go to Florida). By the way, my husband and I love living in MIAMI, FLORIDA. For us it's paradise.    Now paradise is relative....and the bottom line is money. The US retirees that I've seen that want to live in Vietnam are ones that are married to VNmese nationals that are living in the U.S. and want to return home, single and divorced MEN, MEN that work or are co-owners of businesses in Vietnam, ones that have married VNmese women, or have children with them already in VN,and MEN that have limited assets and income. I am sure that there are some more that I didn't cover, but my point is that I don't think VN is a US retiree destination just yet either, and for many years to come. A truly wealthy U.S. retiree would most likely not elect to live in VN when he or she could live just about anywhere else in the world. Given some of the scenarios mentioned above would be motivators for some.
My motivation for going to VN is simple....I have family ties. I'm trying to make yearly visits to get acquainted with relatives that I've never met or seen in a very long time. I want to know my roots, learn about my mother's culture and her language and hopefully visit all of VN if I can.  "A country that is way out of the comfort zone of a typical American". That would be describing me of course!    While in VN I could never get used the the humidity coupled with the lack of central a/c, not having my own car, the pollution everywhere, lack of sufficient sanitation, having to watch my purse all the time, getting sick, getting into an accident and possibly going to a VN hospital  , price haggling, lack of clean public w/c, etc. Don't get me wrong, for the most part I did enjoyed being in VN for a few months, but I was cared for by my relatives. Living or experiencing VN in that capacity is not the same as wanting to retiree there.

I think the attraction to Vietnam for *some* people is the type of life you can have if you're on fixed income is better than you can have in the US.  Some people would disagree and would rather just live in a cheap place in the US (they do exist) but the problem others (like me) have with places like that is they're so damn boring.  To live somewhere interesting, you need $50,000 per year minimum (i.e., over a million dollars in the bank generating a decent return, plus social security), and if you don't have that -- let's say you only have $25,000 per year -- then you could live somewhere interesting in Vietnam. 

But, like I said, that's way out of most Americans' comfort zones.  First off, they'd need to get passports, which amazingly, most people go through their entire lives without.  Then, what do they do with all their stuff (that they never use)?  And can they watch Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy?  And living in Vietnam???  That's just crazy talk to most people.

Let's hope it stays that way. 

Mexico, as of 1996, had a million resident North Americans, mostly U.S. citizens. Costa Rica and Panama are also popular American expat locations, though the numbers won't be anything like Mexico's. Since most retirees have families, travel time and costs factor in to where they want to live. Asia remains a long way off for the majority of U.S. retirees.

You can find American expats living in any country in the Americas. But how many are long term expats is anyone's guess. One cable television channel (AWE) had a program on an American couple looking to settle in the Bocas del Toro region of Panama the other night. They were buying an 'island paradise' of their own. Having spent some time there, I noted the search and post-purchase sequences were both filmed in the dry season, supposedly six months later. (very unlikely) I'd be willing to bet they were out of there after the first month of the rainy season.

Still, Panama's a fairly quick flight and most expats can be in the U.S. by the next day when family emergencies arise. Ditto for Mexico, most of Central America, the Caribbean, and Colombia and Venezuela. Living in Asia requires more planning and travel time.

How can Vietnam be a destination for retirees anyway? How would they get such a visa?

In the so-called popular destinations of the world, they are places which allow and welcome foreigners AS TO VISAS.

In Malaysia, the government has a retirement visa but the price is hefty--$200,000USD parked in a bank for five years. Then of course you have to have enough to buy the rest of your life, like house, car, food, medical, monthly income, etc.

But Vietnam? How..............

cvco wrote:

In Malaysia, the government has a retirement visa but the price is hefty--$200,000USD parked in a bank for five years.

Cheaper in Singapore and you get to use the money.

cvco wrote:

In Malaysia, the government has a retirement visa but the price is hefty--$200,000USD parked in a bank for five years. Then of course you have to have enough to buy the rest of your life, like house, car, food, medical, monthly income, etc.

What program are you talking about?

MM2H Applicants aged 50 years and above:

-- Must place a Fixed Deposit in a bank account in Malaysia of RM150,000 (US$47,000)
-- Can withdraw up to RM50,000 (US$15,500) of the fixed deposit after one year to purchase of house, medical insurance or children's education expenses.
-- Applicants can use their car purchase grant to withdraw part of their Fixed Deposit after two years.
-- Must maintain a minimum balance of RM100,000 (US$31,000) throughout their stay in Malaysia under this programme.

DanFromSF wrote:

What program are you talking about?

You forgot the worst part - VietNam is a social paradise compared to Malaysia and Malaysia looks good against Singapore - the island of highrises. And that old codger LEE, Kuan-Yew.

Jaitch wrote:

DanFromSF wrote:

What program are you talking about?

You forgot the worst part - VietNam is a social paradise compared to Malaysia and Malaysia looks good against Singapore - the island of highrises. And that old codger LEE, Kuan-Yew.

Agreed.  You couldn't pay me to live in either of those places.

Nobody has answered yet, how does a retiree (not student, businessman, etc) get a visa to retire in Vietnam? When its said Vietnam is a haven for retirees, what retirees are they talking about?

cvco wrote:

Nobody has answered yet, how does a retiree (not student, businessman, etc) get a visa to retire in Vietnam? When its said Vietnam is a haven for retirees, what retirees are they talking about?

There is no retiree visa in Vietnam.  For a single person, they will have to renew/extend their tourist Visa every 90 days, and leave the country after two extensions (i.e., 9 months).

This is what I was referring to when I said living in Vietnam is a hassle for retirees.

DanfromSF, i think that info about MM2H is outdated. Last I heard its RM500,000 for an account, minimum RM500,000 house purchase, one tax-free car. And about once a year they change the policy--CAN also work, CANNOT work, CAN work, CANNOT own a company, CAN, CANNOT, etc etcccccccccccccc

I have forgotten the website but a tourist from the UK took up the project and has become the defacto spokesman and travels the world promoting it. I heard even government people go to him for consultation about MM2H. What a laugh.

POINT IS, does Vietnam have such a program? I dont think so (?) Philippines does.

Maybe eventually all ASEAN will have such programs. At the beginning of MM2H it was very liberal and attractive. As people took up the offer, they tightened the regs. When people stopped taking the offer, they relaxed the regs. Its always changing, to grab what the government can from the richest people they can find.

DanFromSF wrote:

cvco wrote:

Nobody has answered yet, how does a retiree (not student, businessman, etc) get a visa to retire in Vietnam? When its said Vietnam is a haven for retirees, what retirees are they talking about?

There is no retiree visa in Vietnam.  For a single person, they will have to renew/extend their tourist Visa every 90 days, and leave the country after two extensions (i.e., 9 months).

This is what I was referring to when I said living in Vietnam is a hassle for retirees.

Right! And thats what I mean, that people out there promoting Vietnam shouldnt be doing so because retirees are the last people on the planet who want to dance the visa dance. They should drop Vietnam until there is a retirement program in place.

Malaysia was another country heavily promoted at a time there was no program. The program came in response to the heavy interest--and only when the government could first work out a financial advantage for itself.

The companies promoting places for expats to go only focus on the happy things, like prices and weather. They seldom if ever get into the legalities from the start. If they did they would find there is in fact very few places for expats to go--the bush in Africa? Antartica? Siberia?

DanFromSF wrote:

I think the attraction to Vietnam for *some* people is the type of life you can have if you're on fixed income is better than you can have in the US.  Some people would disagree and would rather just live in a cheap place in the US (they do exist) but the problem others (like me) have with places like that is they're so damn boring.  To live somewhere interesting, you need $50,000 per year minimum (i.e., over a million dollars in the bank generating a decent return, plus social security), and if you don't have that -- let's say you only have $25,000 per year -- then you could live somewhere interesting in Vietnam. 

But, like I said, that's way out of most Americans' comfort zones.  First off, they'd need to get passports, which amazingly, most people go through their entire lives without.  Then, what do they do with all their stuff (that they never use)?  And can they watch Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy?  And living in Vietnam???  That's just crazy talk to most people.

Let's hope it stays that way. 

I agree very much.

And Mia's post described life in Malaysia perfectly though the topic was Vietnam: "While in VN I could never get used the the humidity coupled with the lack of central a/c, not having my own car, the pollution everywhere, lack of sufficient sanitation, having to watch my purse all the time, getting sick, getting into an accident and possibly going to a VN hospital  , price haggling, lack of clean public w/c, etc."

I can assure Mia that those things are NOT attractions to westerners. Asia holds other interests for them, like Dan said, lack of boredom, so they learn to tolerate the shortcomings and move on. I consider Asia my home, not the US, i just need a legal way to be able to stay. Worst possible thing for me is to be forced back to US where today, after so long in Asia, I would have no job, no friends, no home, no roof, no food, no potentials, no hope.

YEP, and if you read my post correctly, I was relating my experiences with my extended family while in VN. So please don't misconstrue my words. I've visited parts of VN that even many of my relatives have never been to. The bottom line is money. It's not one place is better than the other but can you afford to retire and live comfortably to your standards. We are not talking about surviving which seems to be your case.

MIA2013 wrote:

YEP, and if you read my post correctly, I was relating my experiences with my extended family while in VN. So please don't misconstrue my words. I've visited parts of VN that even many of my relatives have never been to. The bottom line is money. It's not one place is better than the other but can you afford to retire and live comfortably to your standards. We are not talking about surviving which seems to be your case.

As a semi-retired, but non-US, expat, in general I agree with much of what has been written above.  VN is not an easy retirement option for those without a family connection here.  And yes, many of the expats here are ONLY here because it is cheap to survive...but not everyone.  My wife and I are lucky enough to be able to afford to live almost anywhere in the world.  Why are we here?  Because, in conversation with a friend in NYC years ago, he commented:  "The best place in the world to retire?  Hoi An, Vietnam."  Eventually we came to have a look.  We now have a beautiful house virtually on the beach.  This morning at 6:30am we were out on the ocean on our stand-up paddleboards. We grow our own organic vegetables, keep chickens, ducks, and a couple of pigs.   The people are friendly, the food is excellent, the air is clean, there are no traffic jams.  When we are home in VN, the cost of this lifestyle is minimal--a small fraction of what it would be in Australia, Europe or NA. So although we could afford to live most places, we couldn't live like this.  Because of that, when we travel, which we do often, we can stay in better accommodation, eat in the best restaurants, etc.  Da Nang has more and more direct international flights and we meet people from all over the world on our daily beach walks.  A good friend from Sydney, a well-off funds manager, visited us last week with his family.  When I went to say good-bye, he said, "I want to retire in the next few years.  Can you help me find a property? I'd like to spend six months a year here."  Unfortunately I had to explain what most of the other posters have noted--no visa program=too much hassle.  I've lived for long periods in London, Tokyo, Sydney, Hong Kong, Paris, Chicago, but personally, at this moment, I feel very lucky to be here.

cvco wrote:

The companies promoting places for expats to go only focus on the happy things, like prices and weather. They seldom if ever get into the legalities from the start.

It's not 'companies' doing a promotion but rather where people think they could retire and maintain a living standard to which they are accustomed.

As MIA explained: "I could never get used the the humidity coupled with the lack of central a/c, not having my own car, the pollution everywhere, lack of sufficient sanitation, having to watch my purse all the time, getting sick, getting into an accident and possibly going to a VN hospital, price haggling, lack of clean public w/c, etc.".

Not wishing to knock MIA personally, her list is very typical of North Americans. And it is what will turn a lot of people off VietNam.

It is mental 'attitude' that helps migration. You need a fair bit around here.

Another factor is money. Thanks to the pigs on Wall Street many, many, Americans took large hits to their pension plans - many plans simply evaporated. In the decade preceding the crash, the unsmart were inundated with plans to borrow against the equity in their homes. Go on a vacation, buy a new car, etc., all against their home's equity.

Suddenly, all those bills came home to roost, and hundreds of thousands of homes suddenly had zero value as the mortgages (money owed) suddenly were way more than the houses were worth.

Now many middle aged to seniors have no money. They have to find somewhere cheaper to live.

In my decades in VietNam I have had the good fortune to travel all over (my employer occasionally does location 'colour' for books and films). This requires going to a destination and assimilating the smallest details. Back in the time, when we used notebooks and pencils and cameras, it was a hard slog. These days it is much easier.

Of all the places I have been to, I would be happy to live in LAI CHAU, KONTUM or HA TIEN.

Unfortunately Lai Chau is very basic but between the capital and ChaPa (SaPa) along QL40 or QL12 roads you can see Heaven. These vistas equal the Alps, or the Himalayas. I often wonder of the local people understand how lucky they are to live there - for the environment? There are no utilities, although power lines are gradually snaking their way up the valleys. And the air, these days, buzzes with 3G and 4G services.

KonTum is far better served with 'modern' conveniences - living in this very small capital is similar to living in Austria. It's a small town surrounded by a ring of low hills to the West and South with a slow, lazy river wending it's way across the valley and through town.

Ha Tien is a a small seaport, hard against the Cambodian border, and has one of the best fish markets on the south coast. A friend lives in the area in the town of Tri-Ton which is connected by multiple waterways to Ha Tien and the sea. Great area for smuggling! MIA might even like HaTien. Naturally, all services are available.

Fortunately, few Foreigners have discovered these jewels, and life - VNese style - continues unabated. In the slow lane.

cvco wrote:

I can assure Mia that those things are NOT attractions to westerners. Asia holds other interests for them, like Dan said, lack of boredom, so they learn to tolerate the shortcomings and move on. I consider Asia my home, not the US, i just need a legal way to be able to stay. Worst possible thing for me is to be forced back to US where today, after so long in Asia, I would have no job, no friends, no home, no roof, no food, no potentials, no hope.

Dont worry Cvco, you are still young, and if you really want to have a serious relationship, I think it's not too difficult for you to stay in Vietnam .

I saw some foreigners are always high alert to many things here, especially, thieves in Saigon. Even my Viet friend, when she lived abroad, she read news everyday, and she always worry if she stays in Vietnam. But now, she live in HCM city, and she is fine here. With men, some said to me: I dont want to make friends with some young girls, they always are trouble maker. But they still have many friends who are beautiful and young girls . So, do as I say, not as I do (lời nói không đi đôi với việc làm).

Some Vietnamese who has children, they always think for children first, and they like to stay abroad. If they live in Vietnam, their children will be hard with Vietnamese education. And someday, they will try to send them to overseas to study. I have a friend, he wanted to live in Vietnam after his daughter studied many year in oversea. When he stayed here, your daughter can't stand Vietnamese education. She said "why my teacher is so stupid", omg! Finally, he and his family came back to oversea again...

@richiv

I think it's wonderful that you and your wife have found your paradise. I often say, "Home is where you hang your hat at the end of the day". My mother owns 2 vacation homes in Tay Ninh. That is her hometown. Still.....according to her, she does not want to move back to VN to retire. She said to me that when she dies the houses that she owns will be passed on to her surviving siblings or close relatives that do not have houses of their own. She is 66 yrs old and has lived the majority of her life in the U.S. (since 1970) and so have I (I am 46 yrs old now).  She often says VN has really changed so much from the VN that she remembered as a child. Having said that, I think the real reason is that she has become what Dan said about (being outside their comfort zone). We are creatures of our environment. So instead she has elected to visit VN regularly for a couple of months a year to see relatives.  I like the contrast of living and experiencing other countries and cultures from time to time. That's what traveling should be about. After each trip.....it's good to go back home (our paradise) in Miami, Florida. 

Jaitch yes youre right.

Its ironic (maybe wrong use of the word) that while I too lost retirement money, I left US not to save money but because I knew the crash was coming that led to the loss, and therefore the need to save money one day in the future.

Far back as 2000 I was writing to real estate clients (i still have those mails) urging them to sell their property and either not buy again for a very long time or be able to buy their house back at half price sooner than that. I said I had taken it further and left USA altogether and recommended they park some money overseas in land or gold. I wrote all that when prices were still advancing and they thought I was looney (I have those mails too).

All through the entire past decade I urged people to come to ASEAN and buy a little condo so that in their retirement they could live dirt cheap if they lost everything except Social Security. They balked and laughed.

I didnt come to Asia to cut expenses, I came to get out of the way of the coming crash and hoped long before now I would have put down roots ahead of the masses. During the past 15 years I've felt safe and more or less planted. But the changing immigration laws have stripped away all security and now I dont know what to do.

Who can I sit down with in Saigon and have a serious talk about options for staying in Vietnam?

cvco wrote:

Who can I sit down with in Saigon and have a serious talk about options for staying in Vietnam?

Marry a VNese citizen. I have a friend who married a woman who has loose morals and rounded-heels. He pays her USD$500 per year to maintain contact (for documentation purposes) and visa extensions.

P.S. I saw a video last week of brand new, never occupied, monster mansions in Arizona being knocked down - because it's cheaper than maintaining them.

Jaitch you know very well thats easier said than done, especially on short notice. Besides, while the loose morals is fine with me it also can mean loose trust. Things could get worse but anyway I get the point.

I can register a company either new or as a branch of my current company. But how to find a partner? How to actually do this and soon? What specific requirements have to be met? Will a work visa be guaranteed? Do I need a lawyer or agent or who? Im trying to answer all before my trip so i can hit the ground running.

Is there anyone on this blog who has done this, company I mean?

Jaitch's advice about marrying a VN citizen is much easier than you think, and it's mutually beneficial if you are a US citizen.  In fact, if you play your cards right, they will pay you for the arrangement.  Trust me, not long ago I turned down an offer like this.  I wish I could say more, but this forum frowns upon this kind of discussion.

Yes, Covco, Jaich and Dan said right.

My American friend show me a message from a Vietnamese girl, who want to has "true love" with him (she is less 20 years old than him). And he said with me, he always has at least 5 Vietnamse women want to get married with him. But he is considering , because when you have many choices, you dont know what is the best choice .

If you want to have serious relationship, its more difficult because you must spend much time to know about your parner. But if you only want to get married for visa, its quite easy here 

DanFromSF wrote:

Jaitch's advice about marrying a VN citizen is much easier than you think, and it's mutually beneficial if you are a US citizen.  In fact, if you play your cards right, they will pay you for the arrangement.  Trust me, not long ago I turned down an offer like this.  I wish I could say more, but this forum frowns upon this kind of discussion.

Yes i understand but too many variables. Problem is time. What youre saying is true but requires time and being open to opportunities as they may arise. Since I cant make an appointment for this like seeing a doctor i have to stick to a plan thats a bit more firm and duties scheduled. Otherwise good idea.

My friend had to have a VN partner, under law, yet he didn't want a partner that had any interest in the business other than her annual fee.

Not only did he have control of the company but he also got the spousal visa.The morals of the deal might be in the gutter - but this is business.

Don't forget, Foreigners have to have a business address other than their living accommodation. I rent one square centimetre (yes, one square centimetre), at a business address, for VND500,000 per annum.

HCM is the most biz friendly city in VN - later I move them to DakLak.

Jaitch, yes thats what i want, a non-active partner who may help in government matters but wont interfere with my efforts, costs, profits, etc. By the way thats what i have in Malaysia, two non-active directors and it works fine. My plan has been to sell this company and move, OR, open a branch in Saigon which I have previously been told is easier than starting a new Viet company. I dont actually know, just saying.

Malaysia has the same law as Vietnam, you have a separate address for business and living. I use our (mandatory accountants) address at no charge but this is actually not legal. Here, my accountant lists on a giant signboard outside the office the scores of businesses they host. To make you laugh, the governments both in Malaysia and Singapore have been in the news asking, " Hey wait a minute, how can that little office host 14,000 businesses? Where do they put them all in that little office?" The question is humorous but not a joke. In truth, the government has a right to periodically inspect your premises to see if the mission statement in your original company registration matches what you are actually doing in that office. If they appear and there is no activity or different activity (on that square centimeter) youre in a heap of trouble that you may not get out of. There was a time when hoards of officials raided "offices" but its recently died down. Ive escaped so far. I work from home but strangely the country (the people AND the government) dont believe that home-based work is authentic. They demean, belittle, ridicule and scorn it to the point they make laws against it. Yet I have to work this way, i simply cannot see the point of getting up and driving to god knows where to sit and work in 200 sq ft that I could best use the house itself for. I dont get it. Likewise, should cops arrive at my house and see a home-based business, im going to get a whooping. To be clear, i dont post signs outside or have customers, suppliers come here. Half my work is online, half is on work tables, nothing is a retail shop, lets say. Whats the problem?

I went on a bit about that because im very confused. In Saigon am I not allowed to have my workshop in the same building as I live? As you know, millions of businesses in Asia operate as a shop in the front and living in the back or on the floor above. Not legal? Whats wrong?

cvco wrote:

I went on a bit about that because im very confused. In Saigon am I not allowed to have my workshop in the same building as I live? As you know, millions of businesses in Asia operate as a shop in the front and living in the back or on the floor above. Not legal? Whats wrong?

The majority of the people you see with a shop in the front of their homes have never filed any kind of paperwork with the government. They just open a retail business and do what they like. I have two rentals where the tenants (Vietnamese) are selling merchandise in the front. It's just something they decided to do and never even thought about a license or creating a corporation. This is something the Viet people can get away with. If it looks like they're making a lot of money someone may come calling to get a handout but that's it. Now if a foreigner were to open a similar business they wouldn't get away with it for very long.

Adhome01 wrote:

This is something the Viet people can get away with.

This statement doesn't apply for food businesses in TP HCM.

The Health Department is pro-active and look for business (not handouts).

cvco wrote:

My plan has been to sell this company and move, OR, open a branch in Saigon which I have previously been told is easier than starting a new Viet company.

Guaranteed Foreigners, even if from ASEAN, have to register a company and get appropriate company and personal permits.

cvco wrote:

Malaysia has the same law as Vietnam, you have a separate address for business and living. I use our (mandatory accountants) address at no charge but this is actually not legal.

HCM will find out - within one year of registration they make a physical inspection. They also have other resources such as utilities.

cvco wrote:

What's the problem?

It's the law and you would be a guest in the country.

cvco wrote:

In Saigon am I not allowed to have my workshop in the same building as I live? ... Not legal? What's wrong?

Your citizenship - VNese have the privilege. It only says you have to have an office that is not in your home. It doesn't say you can't work there.

Jaitch wrote:

Adhome01 wrote:

This is something the Viet people can get away with.

This statement doesn't apply for food businesses in TP HCM.

The Health Department is pro-active and look for business (not handouts).

I know of over 20 people selling food outside their homes that have no documentation. Maybe they enforce it in D1 and the more touristy districts but no one is coming around in the outside areas.

Adhome01 wrote:

I know of over 20 people selling food outside their homes that have no documentation. Maybe they enforce it in D1 and the more touristy districts but no one is coming around in the outside areas.

Be patient, the department has the whole of 2,095 km2 (809.23 sq miles) to cover.

I have a list of numbers if you want to make the call.

Jaitch wrote:

Adhome01 wrote:

I know of over 20 people selling food outside their homes that have no documentation. Maybe they enforce it in D1 and the more touristy districts but no one is coming around in the outside areas.

Be patient, the department has the whole of 2,095 km2 (809.23 sq miles) to cover.

I have a list of numbers if you want to make the call.

I don't have that much faith in the VN government. Their enforcement in anything that isn't either brought to them or an opportunity to make money is pretty sad.

Adhome01 wrote:

I don't have that much faith in the VN government. Their enforcement in anything that isn't either brought to them or an opportunity to make money is pretty sad.

You didn't say which government.

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with their politics, the HCM Peoples Committee consistently provides it's citizens with the best services in the country.

There are more public swimming pools than anywhere else in VN; there are numerous (around 100) hospitals and  local clinics (near hospitals). Public parks are provided and maintained (although some of the Districts sold them off to raise money), the Transportation Department does a first-class job of maintenance with minimal traffic interference (remember the sewer work? That was NOT transportation), there is a continuing plan for elevating flooded roads (check out Ha Noi); and a thank you to transportation for introducing more traffic lanes for use by two-wheeled vehicles.

Likely you have seen nothing of TP HCM, if you are like the majority of Foreigners - from Cu Chi to Can Gio Districts, An Lac to Binh Thanh Districts.

This is one behemoth of a city regardless of what criterion you use for measurement. Just wait until 2020 when the current plans include the acquisition of several nearby provinces.

And the People's Committee has a heart. When an area is designated for urban renewal, such as the worst parts of Pham Ngu Lao, they don't just send in bulldozers, they ensure housing is available for the dispossessed. When they cleared the illegal squatters in Quan 2 from the Thu Thiem area they rehoused the people, gave them compensatory payments for their illegal homes and flattened individual houses as they were vacated.

There is an apartment building down on Tran Hung Dao that has been condemned. Still occupied by about 5 families who are demanding more compensation. None of the Ha Noi type call in the Cong An type deals.

The Peoples Committee has even permitted demonstrations outside city hall when the to-be displaced had complaints. Try that in Ha Noi!

Freedom to practice religion is allowed (not mixed Foreigner-citizen), there are hundreds of temples, pagodas and churches filled with practitioners. Compare that to Ha Noi where the main Catholic cathedral stands empty, missing windows and doors.

There are not many cities around the world that is as successful as HCM in providing decent conditions for as many people who live here, officially and unofficially.

Jaitch wrote:

Adhome01 wrote:

I don't have that much faith in the VN government. Their enforcement in anything that isn't either brought to them or an opportunity to make money is pretty sad.

You didn't say which government.

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with their politics, the HCM Peoples Committee consistently provides it's citizens with the best services in the country.

There are more public swimming pools than anywhere else in VN; there are numerous (around 100) hospitals and  local clinics (near hospitals). Public parks are provided and maintained (although some of the Districts sold them off to raise money), the Transportation Department does a first-class job of maintenance with minimal traffic interference (remember the sewer work? That was NOT transportation), there is a continuing plan for elevating flooded roads (check out Ha Noi); and a thank you to transportation for introducing more traffic lanes for use by two-wheeled vehicles.

Likely you have seen nothing of TP HCM, if you are like the majority of Foreigners - from Cu Chi to Can Gio Districts, An Lac to Binh Thanh Districts.

This is one behemoth of a city regardless of what criterion you use for measurement. Just wait until 2020 when the current plans include the acquisition of several nearby provinces.

And the People's Committee has a heart. When an area is designated for urban renewal, such as the worst parts of Pham Ngu Lao, they don't just send in bulldozers, they ensure housing is available for the dispossessed. When they cleared the illegal squatters in Quan 2 from the Thu Thiem area they rehoused the people, gave them compensatory payments for their illegal homes and flattened individual houses as they were vacated.

There is an apartment building down on Tran Hung Dao that has been condemned. Still occupied by about 5 families who are demanding more compensation. None of the Ha Noi type call in the Cong An type deals.

The Peoples Committee has even permitted demonstrations outside city hall when the to-be displaced had complaints. Try that in Ha Noi!

Freedom to practice religion is allowed (not mixed Foreigner-citizen), there are hundreds of temples, pagodas and churches filled with practitioners. Compare that to Ha Noi where the main Catholic cathedral stands empty, missing windows and doors.

There are not many cities around the world that is as successful as HCM in providing decent conditions for as many people who live here, officially and unofficially.

I have been living in Viet Nam for over 12 years and speak Viet fluently. The first few years I traveled the country extensively and visited all the historical landmarks and tourist destinations.

I'm guessing you must work for with the Viet government to paint them in such a positive light. That or you are extremely naïve. In fact the VN government is corrupt in every possible way. Anything can be bought and any rule will be broken for a price. One only need to have contact with a government official once to understand how things work. If that isn't enough just turn on the news and see every other segment reporting about someone conning, scamming or taking bribes. And any government law in place to help the people is quickly corrupted to the benefit of the officials whose job it is to enforce it.

Adhome01 wrote:

... I'm guessing you must work for with the Viet government to paint them in such a positive light. That or you are extremely naïve. In fact the VN government is corrupt in every possible way. Anything can be bought and any rule will be broken for a price. One only need to have contact with a government official once to understand how things work. If that isn't enough ...

I have been here 22 years and have seen the country when cars were a rarity, and motorcycles not much better, when people spent all day doing nothing other than earning money to survive, when electricity failed every day and the overloaded crackling wires kept you awake at night. When TV broadcasting was black and white and one-camera productions were the only way they broadcast live. I also remember when no water flowed from taps on HCM for long periods of time, each day.

I don't work for the government, neither do I have much sympathy for some of their policies or the disparity that exists between the governing classes and the governed.

Your diatribe centred on corruption, I never mentioned corruption - in certain countries it is a given.

You said you had no faith in government. I have seen government in action randomly testing restaurants and street vendors. They are also out in the early hours of the morning catching the illegal transportation of untested foodstuffs into HCM. Who fixes the holes in roads overnight? Traffic light failures in HCM are usually repaired in hours.

Who kept tainted meat impounded at the docks? Who checks fruits for artificial life extenders? Who shots down the fake coffee factories? You got it, the Health Department.

And when were you last in An Lac, Cam Gio or Cu Chi? Visiting tourist sites and historical monuments is not the 'real' VietNam and does not reflect daily rural life.

To me, today's VietNam represents one huge construction site with sewers, bridges and roads being built all over. This more than can be said for many parts of the US, in particular places like Appalachia, Colorado, Utah, etc.

Given the state that existed in VietNam after the American War, the country has come a long way, in a short time. Has it made mistakes? Sure, but VN is not too shy to seek external assistance from Foreign experts.

In the wilds of Son La, Dien Bien Phu and Lao Chau there is wide-area InterNet and Cell radio, there is multichannel TV - which is something many parts of the USA can't claim.

In the remote parts of the country EVN provides generators and charges the same rates as elsewhere, giving a subsidy.

If you want to see heavy-handed dysfunctional local government - go live in Ha Noi. One thing Ha Noi does  better than HCM is traffic law enforcement.

VN has a national health scheme, it has mandated annual holidays (the States don't). The maximum and overtime hours are stipulated. Time off for birthing and deaths. Minimum wage, pensions. So many things that aren't all provided for in other countries, including the States, don't have.

And don't call me naive. I live in the VN community; I and my colleagues teach local children each and every weekday evening. I do volunteer in the indigenous areas, I even put two or three days in at a homeless soup kitchen every month - I'm the guy washing dishes.

Again, HCM is the best serviced city in VietNam and the people know it. It's likely the reason you live here, too.

Jaitch wrote:

Adhome01 wrote:

... I'm guessing you must work for with the Viet government to paint them in such a positive light. That or you are extremely naïve. In fact the VN government is corrupt in every possible way. Anything can be bought and any rule will be broken for a price. One only need to have contact with a government official once to understand how things work. If that isn't enough ...

I have been here 22 years and have seen the country when cars were a rarity, and motorcycles not much better, when people spent all day doing nothing other than earning money to survive, when electricity failed every day and the overloaded crackling wires kept you awake at night. When TV broadcasting was black and white and one-camera productions were the only way they broadcast live. I also remember when no water flowed from taps on HCM for long periods of time, each day.

I don't work for the government, neither do I have much sympathy for some of their policies or the disparity that exists between the governing classes and the governed.

Your diatribe centred on corruption, I never mentioned corruption - in certain countries it is a given.

You said you had no faith in government. I have seen government in action randomly testing restaurants and street vendors. They are also out in the early hours of the morning catching the illegal transportation of untested foodstuffs into HCM. Who fixes the holes in roads overnight? Traffic light failures in HCM are usually repaired in hours.

Who kept tainted meat impounded at the docks? Who checks fruits for artificial life extenders? Who shots down the fake coffee factories? You got it, the Health Department.

And when were you last in An Lac, Cam Gio or Cu Chi? Visiting tourist sites and historical monuments is not the 'real' VietNam and does not reflect daily rural life.

To me, today's VietNam represents one huge construction site with sewers, bridges and roads being built all over. This more than can be said for many parts of the US, in particular places like Appalachia, Colorado, Utah, etc.

Given the state that existed in VietNam after the American War, the country has come a long way, in a short time. Has it made mistakes? Sure, but VN is not too shy to seek external assistance from Foreign experts.

In the wilds of Son La, Dien Bien Phu and Lao Chau there is wide-area InterNet and Cell radio, there is multichannel TV - which is something many parts of the USA can't claim.

In the remote parts of the country EVN provides generators and charges the same rates as elsewhere, giving a subsidy.

If you want to see heavy-handed dysfunctional local government - go live in Ha Noi. One thing Ha Noi does  better than HCM is traffic law enforcement.

VN has a national health scheme, it has mandated annual holidays (the States don't). The maximum and overtime hours are stipulated. Time off for birthing and deaths. Minimum wage, pensions. So many things that aren't all provided for in other countries, including the States, don't have.

And don't call me naive. I live in the VN community; I and my colleagues teach local children each and every weekday evening. I do volunteer in the indigenous areas, I even put two or three days in at a homeless soup kitchen every month - I'm the guy washing dishes.

Again, HCM is the best serviced city in VietNam and the people know it. It's likely the reason you live here, too.

Then you should look into working for the government. The Ministry of Propaganda would love to have another old man spewing their bull about how great the Viet people have it. And from the looks of what you've written here you'd be better than Joseph Goebbels (he was a philanthropist too).

I'll let you go now, the dishes are piling up and you need to get back to work.