Getting married, but have doubts...

Why is it that a guy comes here a all of a sudden he thinks he's a handsome prince? I mean, if young pretty girls in your home country don't think you're handsome, they don't here either. Do they think because they traveled to the other side of the world now everything is opposite? If you're old, fat and/or ugly and a beautiful Asian girl want's to marry you, it's about money, period. Maybe she'll take you for everything you have or maybe she'll appreciate what you can give her and learn to love you, who knows. The bottom line is, if you're going to live in your own fantasy land, you're going to wake up in a nightmare.

Adhome01 wrote:

Why is it that a guy comes here a all of a sudden he thinks he's a handsome prince? I mean, if young pretty girls in your home country don't think you're handsome, they don't here either.

Errr... not quite.  Humans are subconsciously programmed to seek biological diversity.  When faced with no real diversity (ie., all the men look the same), women tend to favor security, or access to resources, or status.  In other words, if you're just "another guy" in your home country, simply the fact that you're pysiologically different can make you more attractive.  Add to that the perception that Westerners are "rich" and there's greater chance of you being perceived as attractive by a younger foreign woman, than in your home country.

zanchun wrote:

Hi fredgo, it's a longest post I've ever read on this blog. Anyway, thanks for your sharing.

Here is my thinking :

1. Firstly, in Dec, you chatted with her so much. I think it's just because she wanted to share things with a stranger guy; she felt relax when doing so . And things shared to strange foreigner are much easier than to share with a Vietnamese guy. ( I know because i did take a long time to chat with a stranger girl outside VN )

2. Secondly, she has 3 children already, 2-broken in marriage, so she has a reason to worry about the 3rd marriage with you ( If happened ). I think what  she want now is large amount of money to support her family life, to grow up her 3 children. She won't care about love anymore.

OR she doesn't believe in your love. How come a stranger us guy can love her and her children as well as her big family.

3. If you want to come with her, I think you should spend more time to go to meet her face to face, not Viber, not facebook. Try all your best to let her believe in your love ( Not by using your money to buy things for her family ). When you spending more time with her, you will know clearly about her. All you have told is just what she chatting with you, may not 100% true.

4. If the result is not as your wish, do'nt be sad ! Because there're still lots of lovely-not-married women in Vietnam. Just because your luck hasn't come jet.

5. Finally, we're just out-standers, our comments are just our thinking, the decision is yours !

So good to get your comment especially!

1. No, I misled  you then.   I did not mean idle chat.  It was slow at first but became strong and romantic.  She always wanted to be slow.  Anyway, that is past.  I just miss that time.

2.  I agree with that.  She really wants best for children.  Just as any mother. 

3. I think you misunderstand.  I have met her.  I met in January.  I met her for 3 months from March to June (5 weeks, rest was in sgn.  Traveled to Nam Dinh 5 times.).

4. You are correct about this!  Today, I had a friend that has been bugging me for years to go and live in vn and set up a restaurant.  So, I said yes finally.  I will actually live in vn now, and have her with me and see how it goes.

5. Appreciate all comments.  Really.  I do not have an ego.

DanFromSF wrote:

Adhome01 wrote:

Why is it that a guy comes here a all of a sudden he thinks he's a handsome prince? I mean, if young pretty girls in your home country don't think you're handsome, they don't here either.

Errr... not quite.  Humans are subconsciously programmed to seek biological diversity.  When faced with no real diversity (ie., all the men look the same), women tend to favor security, or access to resources, or status.  In other words, if you're just "another guy" in your home country, simply the fact that you're pysiologically different can make you more attractive.  Add to that the perception that Westerners are "rich" and there's greater chance of you being perceived as attractive by a younger foreign woman, than in your home country.

A Viet girl would much rather marry with a young Viet man, that's what most of them do. I understand some people are attracted to people of different races but these same people will date someone around their own age and attractiveness. No matter how diverse biologically, old is old, fat is fat, and ugly is still ugly.

WillyBaldy wrote:

fredgo wrote:

Thanks to everyone's advice here and privately also.  I will confront her about this in the next few days and see the reaction.  Will also stop the money flow too to see what happens as has been suggested.

That's very smart. You certainly don't want to end up like this guy ;-)

Yikes!  No I don't!

Adhome01 wrote:

No matter how diverse biologically, old is old, fat is fat, and ugly is still ugly.

You're failing to see men as women see men.  Women do this too.  I dated a girl who was physically beautiful, and she would cry that she wasn't good enough for me because she didn't make nearly as much as I do.  I had to tell her I really didn't care how much she made and I found it bizarre that she thought it mattered to me.

Given a financially strapped, physically attractive local man, versus a stable older foreigner, I'll bet a good percentage of Vietnamese women will be genuinely more attracted to the foreigner.  You can frame that as them having nefarious motives because the foreigner isn't as physically handsome, but I'd argue you're basing that on your male definition of what's attractive (which really isn't what matters, BTW).  Women are far more complex about what they find attractive in the opposite sex than we are.

If she is beautiful and nice as you have described then why previous men met her and run off. Think ABOUT THAT. This is a trouble girl. Block you from Facebook just a comment that you two have spent time together.
This kind of Vietnamese girls giving a bad name for all Vietnamese girls in Vietnam.
The problem is, there are so many of them here in Vietnam. What a shame. I feel so embarrassed for these Vietnamese girls.

fredgo wrote:

4. You are correct about this!  Today, I had a friend that has been bugging me for years to go and live in vn and set up a restaurant.  So, I said yes finally.  I will actually live in vn now, and have her with me and see how it goes.

So now you're going to move to Viet Nam and open a restaurant because "your friend" has been bugging you for years to do so? Do you have so sense of self preservation? Like the old saying goes, "A fool and his money are soon parted".

Adhome1
I think the young man probably knows far more about VN than any of us who lives here. Perhaps he has a deep down desire to ruin his life in a very short span.
First marry a girl he himself has serious doubts about. The go into a very risky business that he most likely will lose everything in short order even if he did not marry a girl he question her intentions. I hope his bride does well with the restaurant he built. Indeed, a fool and his money will soon part. Where is Wild1? He surely could provide some good advice on VNese Western business ventures. I hope he post the name of his new place so we can at least make his bides restaurant profitable!

Adhome01 wrote:

fredgo wrote:

4. You are correct about this!  Today, I had a friend that has been bugging me for years to go and live in vn and set up a restaurant.  So, I said yes finally.  I will actually live in vn now, and have her with me and see how it goes.

So now you're going to move to Viet Nam and open a restaurant because "your friend" has been bugging you for years to do so? Do you have so sense of self preservation? Like the old saying goes, "A fool and his money are soon parted".

I have been going to vn for 8 years, about 47 trips.  This is partially to be with her.  But, also because I want to do business there while I do my own business.  Yes, she has tipped the scales.  But, at least if I live there with her and hold off on the marriage I can learn more about us.  Or, split up and I can find another good one very easily.

The best news here is your going to try it out first. Try to handle one bad idea at a time. Fourth- seven trips on a plane does not equate to a great deal of knowledge on life, be it business or romantic life in VN. I wish I had a dollar for every friend who wanted to help me get rid of my money.

Vagabondone wrote:

Adhome1
I think the young man probably knows far more about VN than any of us who lives here. Perhaps he has a deep down desire to ruin his life in a very short span.
First marry a girl he himself has serious doubts about. The go into a very risky business that he most likely will lose everything in short order even if he did not marry a girl he question her intentions. I hope his bride does well with the restaurant he built. Indeed, a fool and his money will soon part. Where is Wild1? He surely could provide some good advice on VNese Western business ventures. I hope he post the name of his new place so we can at least make his bides restaurant profitable!

The more I think about it the better I feel about her getting all his money. I mean, she's obviously smarter than he is and she's more likely to do something productive with it.

fredgo wrote:

Adhome01 wrote:

fredgo wrote:

4. You are correct about this!  Today, I had a friend that has been bugging me for years to go and live in vn and set up a restaurant.  So, I said yes finally.  I will actually live in vn now, and have her with me and see how it goes.

So now you're going to move to Viet Nam and open a restaurant because "your friend" has been bugging you for years to do so? Do you have so sense of self preservation? Like the old saying goes, "A fool and his money are soon parted".

I have been going to vn for 8 years, about 47 trips.

You forgot to add, learned none of the language, little of the culture, and lost all common sense. On the plus side, in a year from now when you're broke, lonely and bitter, you'll have those plane stubs to show your buddies.

Adhome01 wrote:

The more I think about it the better I feel about her getting all his money. I mean, she's obviously smarter than he is and she's more likely to do something productive with it.

Oh, I'm totally resigned to the OP being a complete lost-cause.  I just *love* it when people jump on forums, ask for advice, and then stubbornly refuse to take that advice, because it's uncomfortable to do so.  At this point, I'm just...

When in doubt don't do it. Don't rush into marriage. Check and verify your doubts. I know it is hard but rushing into it won't make things any better. Follow your heart but of course, be logical.

Good luck staying in Vietnam!!!

Its hard to differentiate someone who seeks genuine advice or just seeking confirmation.   So ill wade in.

Fredgo the info youve posted tells me your Vietnamese is at best kindergarten level.   Im a vietkieu who has been to VN once per year since 2008.  My tone is almost perfect but my vocabulary is quite limited.   In a group conversation i can  understand approximately 25% of what is spoken.   My point is after one month and the newness wears off  conversing with you becomes 'boring.'   Vietnamese like to interject jokes, idioms, poems, and clever phrases into their discussions.   If you havent progressed past the basics then youre a bystander at the dinner table.   My advice would be to take a extensive vietnamese class.   Best course of action would be to find a student, offer a language exchange and meet with him/her frequently.   This way you learn the street language not the class language.

The mistake expats make when dating vietnamese women is that we see ourselves as average joes with average salaries.   The annual income of an american is about 25 times or more than the average viet.    You would be a millionaire by US standards and what women wouldnt prefer a millionaire over the average bloke.   Just like most men would prefer beautiful women over the average one.   Youre a target for unscrupulous women.   Youve been here often enough that you should have some trusted friends.   Vietkieus have an advantage in that we have families and relatives that can introduce us to women with reputable families.   Your chances will increase significantly.   I know blind dates are frowned upon in the US but here its essential.  Foreigners should ask trusted coworkers and friends for introductions.   Stay away from  bars, websites and tourists areas.  And be realistic.   If youre dating someone 15 years younger or more than you then youre setting yourself up for a heartache.

In Viet culture family is above all else.   Vietnamese women are practical.   They will marry to help their family.   The bad ones will demand money the good ones will find their own way to assist their families.  If youre not comfortable having an extended family then youre not ready for marriage.  You will be asked to assist her family now and then how much depends on their scruples.   But it shouldnt be no more than any other relatives.   But for crap sake dont be cheap.   Dont give the same amount as the aunt who makes 5$ a day.   For example street/home weddings should be 2-300,000$.   Restaurant wedding is 500,000$.    Funerals are 1-200,000$.   My personal rule is to give double of what is expected.  Do not be the atm.

Ive been down this road and seen so many misconceptions from both sides its frustrating.   If youre intent on marrying this woman then take your your time, learn the culture and the language.   Take that offer from a friend or coworker and visit his house in the countryside.   In my opinion thats where you will find an honest good vietnamese woman.   Good luck to you.

OBB wrote:

Ive been down this road and seen so many misconceptions from both sides its frustrating.   If youre intent on marrying this woman then take your your time, learn the culture and the language.   Take that offer from a friend or coworker and visit his house in the countryside.   In my opinion thats where you will find an honest good vietnamese woman.   Good luck to you.

What advice do you have for someone who simply wants to date or have a girlfriend, and not necessarily get married?

Dejavu.dot wrote:

You have many nice proverbs! Thanks for your sharing. I think you don't know how he is yet. Shouldnt teach him cos I feel he is older than us.I myself also made a big mistake that I always remember.. No one around me can believe that I can make that silly mistake if I tell them. Making mistakes isnt bad at all. You can learn something on it. If you see there is something wrong about his belief, it just means that it is right for his life.. doesnt mean wrong as you imagine.

All of us have our own experiences and lessons.

Sorry dear! My English teacher gave me the link of this forum last week, I joned here to learn English, because I have high Toeic score, but I cant write what I want (I feel shy , hic). Now I must try to imporve my English writing. Maybe, Dr. G is my teacher ! But I dont care ! Really! Even he can be angry with me !

Cast not the first stone! Tiên trách kỷ, hậu trách nhân! I always teach my students like that, and many my friends, when they need a advice.

No matter how old you are and even you had unhappiness life because you saw many bad women, pls dont evalute people so easily, especially when evaluating all Vietnamese women like that. I think many Vietnamese women, they never have free time to argue with anybody (not free like me!). They must spend time to earn money, take care their family, and do many complex things in their life.

Adhome01 wrote:

A Viet girl would much rather marry with a young Viet man, that's what most of them do. I understand some people are attracted to people of different races but these same people will date someone around their own age and attractiveness. No matter how diverse biologically, old is old, fat is fat, and ugly is still ugly.

Sorry, I've just joined here so I dont know you are man or woman. But I think you dont know women so much. When I was young, I saw some young men were like children, even they are same age. I always wanted to have a older man, maybe more than 12 years old. But now, when I am older, I think a man always is like a child no matter what his age .

If I CAN love someone, I never care how his look, how tall he is, what his weight is, but still care how old he is (I dont want to have a younger man or the man is older than me more 12 years). I think many Vietnamese women are like me. If someone really loves a man who is fat, she will try to help him lose weight, and never complain his weight, because when you love someone, you love himself/herself. I'm sure about that.

Many Vietnamese women love a foreigner men because they feel safe (but...), they are respected, they are not forced to do this, do that... But many women want to get married with foreigner because of money, I know! If you are a foreigner, pls be smart man, dont let Vietnamese woman lie you.

But love is blind. I am not sure about the future. Try to do right thing as much as posible.

DanFromSF wrote:

What advice do you have for someone who simply wants to date or have a girlfriend, and not necessarily get married?

Single Viet women date to marry.   Theres just no way around it if youre looking for a serious relationship.   But from my experience ive found that women who are divorced, separated and hit the " ế" age(undesirable) of 30 years old are much more willing to enter a sexual relationship without commitments.   Just be upfront about it youd be surprised with the answers esp with Saigonese women.    If you prefer younger then just be some girl's sugardaddy(nui).

I suggest you research foreigners opening a business in Vietnam. Good luck with getting the business registered under your name.

And 47 trips to Vietnam in 8 years???? Who needs a VEC!

khanh44 wrote:

And 47 trips to Vietnam in 8 years???? Who needs a VEC!

Is it possible travel 6 times a year to and from the US?

I've read your 1st post the second time slowly and carefully.

1. The " Like " on facebook : some Vietnamese people may consider "like" button as " seen " button, just want to let the owner of the post know that they've read that.

2. " Me too " : Vietnamese people just think it's simple . Like in HER's post, she just thinks "me too" means " i love the girl too " , not anything else , don't pay too much attention to this situation. Just take it easy !

And I think she will get annoyed when you fell jealous with above things.

3. Can you tell us how is your relation between you and SHE now ? (Aug 5th)

4. I have some questions in your post:

a. DID she accept to marry you ?
b. If she accepted to marry you, when will it happen ? ( Have you and her got a plan for a wedding party jet ? )
c. If she accepted to marry you, why she's blocked you on facebook ? ( Can you ask her directly and tell us later )
d. If you marry she, will she move to US with you or just stay in Vietnam ?

5. I think SHE is kind woman too, but after 2-broken, she gets weak and doesn't believe in marriage anymore. She has to struggle in her life : growing up 3 children, supporting her family. ( I'm pity for her ! and I hate her 2 ex-husbands - coward, irresponsible ).

6. If you cannot marry she but still love her deeply, just let it be, you both take care of her and her 3 children and your 2 children also ( So hard duty huh ? ) - just like Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, they're not married yet, just live together and take care of each other. The married-contract is such a big thing that SHE 's scared of now - I guess.

There're lots things I want to share but my bad English doesn't allow me to do so. Hope you can get my ideas !

7. One more thing, You have just met her since DEC - 2013, now is August 2014 - quite a short time to come to a marriage. In Vietnamese culture or in our opinion, a man and a women should have at least 1 year in love (long time enough to understand each other ) to come to a wedding. 

Wow, this is the 1st time I took time to read till 1/2 these kinds of story. I believe that in any kind of relationship, you need to trust - in the other and in that relationship too, no exception for romantic relationship. So, my advice, as a Vietnamese woman "when you start to wonder whether you can trust someone or not, that is when you already know you don't" - then either (i) you give more time for you and your relationship, or (ii) run. If you really love her, give another chance and more time for your relationship. Other thing, "easy come, easy go" - few months doesnt sound much enough for a relationship. Good luck with your girl!

OBB wrote:

DanFromSF wrote:

What advice do you have for someone who simply wants to date or have a girlfriend, and not necessarily get married?

Single Viet women date to marry.   Theres just no way around it if youre looking for a serious relationship.   But from my experience ive found that women who are divorced, separated and hit the " ế" age(undesirable) of 30 years old are much more willing to enter a sexual relationship without commitments.   Just be upfront about it youd be surprised with the answers esp with Saigonese women.    If you prefer younger then just be some girl's sugardaddy(nui).

Your post sounds like you have a lot of experience with Vietnamese girls. Unfortunately, it becomes wrong nowadays. Many Vietnamese girls who's strong and get stable financial situation, they dont want to get married just to have a husband even they're hitting 30 or "e^'"

I think you are being hookwinked. You sound like a good guy, but don't be fooled by this woman. Judging from how she has treated you, the future does not look promising with her. Take a good look at what you are saying and trust your gut. If you have doubts, it's a warning sign. There are other great ladies out there who will appreciate you. Good luck.
Marie

fredgo wrote:

I told her what I wanted.  And I cannot accept less.  I want on her facebook and for all to know that I am her fiance.  I do not need to chat with her on facebook and write love notes there.  Hey, I understand some things are meant to be private.

But, put a picture of us together for the world to see, change the status to engaged/married and I can move on happily.  It will answer many here who say she is hiding me in case others are also sending money or she has others.  This is my resolve though.  Maybe later we can dispense with the facebook thing altogether.  But, for now, I want it public.

Pardon me for putting this in your post, but to answer many who are considering her a "tramp" really.  A gold digger.  If that were true, she'd have a man already and be in the US.  Wish I could show your her face.  But truly, for her, it would not be a problem at all and she would have snookered someone already.

I really do not care who she chats with or calls.  That is a world I do not want to enter as it will consume any man with jealousy and a lot of lost time and energy.  I just need it public, then as some have hinted, anyone that has the hots for her, will stop.  I would.  Ant that is where I will stand my ground.

Thanks for you post!

I hope everything is ok with you now. Vietnamese women will keep private if they arent sure about their relationship. But I saw you really want to get married her, why she still want to hide this relationship?

And, like you thought, I am wondering, if she is responsible, she had 2 children already, why she still has unsafe sex with American man, who isnt her husband? And, she is single mom, I think she must be carefully than others. She cant have more child. She cant be a good mother, she only think for herself, not for her children, I think so! All Vietnamese women I know, they can sacrifice all things (even, their husband) for their children.

Whenever you still have doubts, you need time to think deeply. Marriage life is not easy, and women is very complicated to understand . I read somewhere, "woman is to be loved, not to understand" . But at least, you must understand what she want now. I dont like women like her, really. I'm sorry, I'm very straight.

Last night I read this in FB: "Many marriages would be much better if the husband and wife clearly understood they are on the same side."- Zig Ziglar

I always hope, good people will see good ones, to bring happiness to each other. Our life is so tired with many complicated thing we must do, dont want to see bad people at all...

ngattt wrote:

And, like you thought, I am wondering, if she is responsible, she had 2 children already, why she still has unsafe sex with American man, who isnt her husband?

No.  She has THREE children, from two different men.  The OP justifies this as "she made choices that have not worked out" and he wants to marry her. 

All the decent Vietnamese women reading this are shaking their heads and rolling their eyes.




.

ngattt wrote:

Dejavu.dot wrote:

You have many nice proverbs! Thanks for your sharing. I think you don't know how he is yet. Shouldnt teach him cos I feel he is older than us.I myself also made a big mistake that I always remember.. No one around me can believe that I can make that silly mistake if I tell them. Making mistakes isnt bad at all. You can learn something on it. If you see there is something wrong about his belief, it just means that it is right for his life.. doesnt mean wrong as you imagine.

All of us have our own experiences and lessons.

Sorry dear! My English teacher gave me the link of this forum last week, I joned here to learn English, because I have high Toeic score, but I cant write what I want (I feel shy , hic). Now I must try to imporve my English writing. Maybe, Dr. G is my teacher ! But I dont care ! Really! Even he can be angry with me !

Cast not the first stone! Tiên trách kỷ, hậu trách nhân! I always teach my students like that, and many my friends, when they need a advice.

No matter how old you are and even you had unhappiness life because you saw many bad women, pls dont evalute people so easily, especially when evaluating all Vietnamese women like that. I think many Vietnamese women, they never have free time to argue with anybody (not free like me!). They must spend time to earn money, take care their family, and do many complex things in their life.

You didn't understand what I meant

DanFromSF wrote:

No.  She has THREE children, from two different men.  The OP justifies this as "she made choices that have not worked out" and he wants to marry her. 
All the decent Vietnamese women reading this are shaking their heads and rolling their eyes.
.

"Work out"= work at home?
I think it is not bad dan. My aunts chose not to go out to work. They just work at home. The income of one day is equal to 1 month salary of people who works for government.

Dejavu.dot wrote:

"Work out"= work at home?
I think it is not bad dan. My aunts chose not to go out to work. They just work at home. The income of one day is equal to 1 month salary of people who works for government.

No, that's not the meaning.  I was quoting the OP who said this woman  "made choices that have not worked out".  tt means she made a few teeny tiny mistakes and now has three kids from two different men.  No big deal, right?

Interesting confusion between the English language and the Vietnamese when we both consider the meaning of "work".

DanFromSF wrote:

ngattt wrote:

And, like you thought, I am wondering, if she is responsible, she had 2 children already, why she still has unsafe sex with American man, who isnt her husband?

No.  She has THREE children, from two different men.  The OP justifies this as "she made choices that have not worked out" and he wants to marry her. 

All the decent Vietnamese women reading this are shaking their heads and rolling their eyes.

.

I read this passage, he wrote: "Then, there is this second guy that I only know he is from the UK, and she got pregnant.  This has always bothered me because I know Vietnam culture and I know that if you have unprotected sex, you will get pregnant.  The fact she is older, had 2 already and was single and still did this, well, it bothers me to this day."

BTW, when I read "work out", I must use Google to understand what you want to say .
When I read many posts here, I worry so much. Because I cant understand many words you guys wrote. I must use dictionary many times . OMG. My English teacher said, he doesnt understand, why I can get 825 scores of Toeic test, but I cant speak English well  . But he didnt know, even I cant read English paper well, kakaka  .

I only improve my English listening, because if I cant listen, how can I understand what people say ? I cant speak, but I can understand. Its good enough for me .
And I only read IT books, its grammar and vocabularys are very easy to understand, hic.

We English speaking folks could also view the phrase " work out" as meaning to work outside the home. However, we could also go to the Gum and work out using, say, weights. Then too there is the context that Dan used things did not work out as planned. I just found it an interesting difference in the two languages. Not to poke fun at your English writing abilities . Your doing ver very well. I can see why you scored so high

DanFromSF wrote:

No, that's not the meaning.  I was quoting the OP who said this woman  "made choices that have not worked out".  tt means she made a few teeny tiny mistakes and now has three kids from two different men.  No big deal, right?

Thanks. I get it now.

Adhome01 wrote:

DanFromSF wrote:

Adhome01 wrote:

Why is it that a guy comes here a all of a sudden he thinks he's a handsome prince? I mean, if young pretty girls in your home country don't think you're handsome, they don't here either.

Errr... not quite.  Humans are subconsciously programmed to seek biological diversity.  When faced with no real diversity (ie., all the men look the same), women tend to favor security, or access to resources, or status.  In other words, if you're just "another guy" in your home country, simply the fact that you're pysiologically different can make you more attractive.  Add to that the perception that Westerners are "rich" and there's greater chance of you being perceived as attractive by a younger foreign woman, than in your home country.

A Viet girl would much rather marry with a young Viet man, that's what most of them do. I understand some people are attracted to people of different races but these same people will date someone around their own age and attractiveness. No matter how diverse biologically, old is old, fat is fat, and ugly is still ugly.

There was a saying from a famous 70's tattoo artist-
"Marry a fat tattooed woman.
Warmth in winter,shade in summer
and moving pictures all year round."

In the western countries they have the 'cougar'.
The older woman who is attracted to the much younger man.

And finally
'Beauty is only skin deep,but ugly goes right to the bone.'

jimbream wrote:

'Beauty is only skin deep,but ugly goes right to the bone.'

Super Cubs are classic, although that one sure is a mess.

However, if you want to talk ugly, there's no excuse for this:

Boy how far this thread has gotten off topic! Time to unsubscribe.

Vagabondone wrote:

Boy how far this thread has gotten off topic!

There's no sense in beating a dead horse.

Vagabondone wrote:

Boy how far this thread has gotten off topic! Time to unsubscribe.

Three pages of dead horses.
And by the way,that ugly machine in your other post is the new HD 750 watercooled that's made in India.
Is that the same one?