The other side of the Dutch postcard

Julien, I would definitely say you are right on the money! I get the "you're so lucky" "grass is greener on the other side" comments all the time.

I think the biggest challenge/difference for me, an American, living in The Netherlands is getting over my entitlement issues and arrogance my country gave me from birth. I have learned, in just a year, you can't always get it your way and there isn't always a supervisor to speak with. I have learned that there are no warnings really and if you slip on a deadline, you will be heavily fined! I have certainly learned how to stand up for my country; as so many want to enter a heated debate about America. I am still having trouble with the idea that no one really works on the weekends and everything closes so incredibly early (by my 24/7 commercialism American working standards). And the taxes, oy, the taxes! I came from 7% taxes and it shot straight up to 21%; that was a huge pill to swallow. I have also been through the ringer with Dutch only speaking government offices such as the tax office, but at the same time, completely understand that the national language is Dutch and I better start learning faster. Being from Florida, I come from the best weather in the world with some of the most beautiful beaches. Here, I definitely have a Vitamin E deficiency, lol, as the once daily sun is no longer in my world. lol

Those are just some of the "other side" of the post card traits I have noticed. I absolutely love this country and that is why I have decided to stay longer but one really must, like you said, look at the good, the bad and the ugly before packing up their bags and living somewhere abroad.

Hope it helps. I also have a travel blog on Facebook if you're interested. /YourTravelBlogger

Nice post CherryBlossomMarketing, thanks !

A postcard, to put into words are picturesque on one side and an empty lined space on the other. As a tourist one experiences mostly the ''good times'' as an expat, reality sets in. You get the ups and downs and in-between moments that really defines who you are. There are times when you regret leaving your home, your security which you've built with blood, sweat and tears. And times when you don't think much about them, until your security in your host country starts to get shaky and crumbling.
When your ideals are contested and jested, your independence is but a tiny string hanging like a pendulum, swaying wildly in a tornado of concerns, the impending fear of not being able to contribute your worth in gold. The hundreds of hours spent on job searching only to amount in rejections, over and over again threatening your career growth and the growth of your relationship with your partner. Your life, in the center of a empty crossroad, no signs to tell you where it heads to. Nothing in the horizon, not even a clue to what or where it may lead you. Your only consolation ? The sun still rises, the clouds still parts, the moon still shines and the stars still sparkle.
You take what you can, when opportunity comes calling... it may be temporary but it's better than nothing. You take up skills, like a Jack of all trades. You put on a Poker face, when faced with indifference. You make the best of what you have and cherish the good times, cos you'll never know when is the next.
Your family and friends back home think you sit on a pedestal even when you repeatedly tell them, your life back home was the epitome of bliss than where you are now. All because of a glossy, picture perfect postcard..

Hi Julian,

If we are to speak only of my Netherlands experience when travelling abroad, I will say that it was most definitively a lovely experience, Holland is a lovely country, with good people, my only draw back was the cost of living there in accordance to what I was earning, which here in Spain would have been a superb salary, but for there under those conditions was a little low.

Maastricht, I felt that is was a very expensive town to live in, rooms,flats and general housing is over rated and to top it off one has to go through estate agents to sign contracts, a fee which in my opinion is by far too high, more than one month's rent, in many circumstances ,goes to the estate agent for printing a contract which has been kept in his pc, the simple press of one button can give the estate agent from anything up of 400 euros, I find that abusive, as is to pay up to 3 months rental deposit for a plain room, which costs as much as a big furnished flat here in Spain depending on the region of course.

I tried in vain to live there and was there for over 16 months but finally had to give up and return, after having tried in vain to make a life there for me and my family.

I would return to the Netherlands any time, it is a lovely country with good people as mentioned before and if one is earning a salary in accordance with the living standards, then you can live very well in the Netherlands indeed.

Hi Julien,

I found this country lovely for the holidays but living here is another matter. The positive side of living here is the fact that there is generally more honesty and efficiency than in Italy. Here (almost) everything works, (almost) everyone respects the rules, the cops are good at making respect them, salaries are higher than in Italy etc… All these things for an Italian are surprising, especially if he/she comes from the southern part of the country…   

Then, I premise that nowadays finding a job is difficult anywhere, but here it's really difficult, if you don't speak Dutch and/or you aren't a high-skilled immigrant.

I can't find any type of job because I'm unskilled and I don't speak Dutch (I'm studying it with the hope that one day I'll find something). But almost all unskilled jobs have been got.
That's why there are a lot of ads where companies offer skilled jobs. But these jobs require a strict staff selection and few people can participate in this selection. They often require a university education and/or many years of work experience.
Many skilled jobs are still vacant also for the fact that they involve more responsibilities and less free time. The salary of an unskilled job is already enough high. So, per example, why have I to get a management job if I can have a good life also with a production job?

But also many restaurants, for example, look for expert waiters/waitresses and (another example) cleaning companies look for expert cleaners. So I'm out. 
I've a high school education and 3 years of experience in administration. I'm 28 but I've a junior CV. My only fault is that I made an experience that I can't exploit here (at the moment). I found a job and I did it.

The experience requirements irritate me a lot: how can I get experience without working? Once, people had the willing to teach you a job. Now nobody wants to do it.
It is also true that once there were less people and there were less rules and requirements.

As for the private experience… No comment! Making friends is really difficult.

Here is my experience in Holland. In the last month I realized that I don't like this place anymore. But I can't go anywhere else. In this moment I'm really confused, so I'm not the right person to give an advice.

Have a nice day,
Licia

The Netherlands is a country inhabited by incredibly rude and uninteresting people. I got lucky enough to meet some nice Dutch persons but most of them have nothing to say and are humorless. That's my impression after hving lived for 4 years there. I now live in Germany and find it a much better country to live in. Cheers.

Hi Licia,

I agree it's incredibly hard to get a job. Let alone continue with  desired career path. It's almost non existence. I self study the language and am currently taking an online diploma course (fashion entrepreneur) in the hopes of securing a job in the field of my interest. I don't know if that helps or not, but I think it's my best bet. Perhaps you can find courses (other than Dutch language) that can assist you in landing a job of your choice?

kind regards,
Kris

Hi Kris,

The idea to make a specific course wouldn't be bad if I had the certainty that it could help me. I made 2 courses in Italy and it didn't work, but Italy is another world... It's true that I'm too generic but, as I'm strong on humanities, I wouldn't be lucky in this world of scientists, technologists and engineers... So, what could I study? There's no solution for me.
Thank you for your interest.

Cheers,
Licia

Hi Licia,

I see where you are coming from, believe me. I came from food & beverage and retail background, had years of experience between both industry  (interchangeable skills) but no on paper qualifications to proof. Am already in my 30's, unmarried so no family commitments. But still don't make the cut. Went to 5 interviews since moving here in March 2012, rejected for second interview in most of them. The only company interested in me, felt I live too far for them to consider me as a candidate. Dutch language proficiency? I've been told by the interviewer that I did pretty good under my circumstances, in their words not a huge issue. What's wrong then? Beats me.

As for courses, I can't suggest what works for you. It should be something you would do and enjoy doing. Or volunteer work, if you can afford to fund for travel costs or other costs involved with volunteer work.

kind regards,
Kris

I enjoy studying languages and one day I'll do something in this sense. But I don't have a job to afford the costs that studying involves. Unfortunately, studying and volunteering are suitable for rich people. It's a vicious circle: I can't study (or be a volunteer) because I don't have money but I can't work because I'm unskilled... I can't find any solution for me!

I feel you Lucia but you have to admit that finding a job at this moment is very difficult, even for the Dutch people.
The economic get better but very slow. You can not expect that you find a job easily while you don't speak Dutch properly.
If I want to move to Italy then I have to learn the Italian language too, as far as I know not many Italians speaks English and they are not intent to do so. While I live now in Jordan I have to at least speak Arabic to find a job.
Here is difficult to find a job, it is not only the lack of language but you need a network who can talk you in.
This is the way how it goes here.

You don't have to be rich to do some volunteer work, even a few hours a week can be more then enough.
This is a great opportunity to improve your Dutch and your skills.
Beside this the employer like to see that you are active for the community.

I don't expect to find a job without the language. The problem is that people require it also to do a dishwasher job, while in Italy there are loads of Moroccans who do anything without knowing any Italian word. But Italy is different, there are also other things that I can't mention here for space reasons. The similarity is that, also in Italy, if you don't know Someone you don't work, believe me. There's no meritocracy in my country.
As for the volunteering, it is for rich people, because they can live without earning money.

Hello All

I have been living in Hengelo for the past 2 years and its only now that I feel I have begun to settle in. When I first came I knew from the start that it would be near impossible to land a decent job without being able to speak the language so I became a ZZPer and started to give english lessons to anyone and everyone!

Since then work has steadily grown but life in this part of the world definitely has its ups and downs. I find the locals here to be friendly enough but only at arms length. ..to say they are cliquey is an understatement!  Also I do find they are quick to judge if you happen to be taking your time mastering this rather difficult language....but hey I take great comfort in the fact that half of them are born and bred here and live 3 doors down from their parents!! The word 'stuck' comes to mind!

If I had any advice to give it would be stick at it, the good days become more frequent and the bad days less so!  And if any expats live in Hengelo or thereabouts give me a shout x

For you it is different. English is useful, Italian is useless. For an English-speaker, finding a job is less difficult. Everywhere you go, everyone understands you and/or wants to learn English. Italian is useful only for the fact that you need a native speaker if you need to translate something from Italian, because there are few people who know this language and natives are everywhere. And I can't be a ZZPer because I don't have the money to open a VAT account. I'd like to be a freelance translator but I've still a lot of road to do, to join it. That's why I wanted to start with a basic job. But the 95% of basic jobs have been got by Extra-EU people!

Rant over? Feel better now? Good luck!!

Yes, I feel better and I'm sorry to bother people. But, believe me, I can't find a solution for me.

Just a question: Am I the only one Italian who likes to live here?
My only problem, for me, has been  - and could it be now - the dutch language for the skilled jobs and the english for the unskilled jobs.
I think that's normal; in Italy, if you don't speak italian you cannot get neither a tourist information.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe in a few months, or years, I will hate this place. But now, I think there's a difference between Italy and The Netherlands: In Italy, for many years you work heavily, I sacrifice my life in the hope that in the future I will get back somethings; My Parents did like me, and my Grandparents as well. And for what? nothing, because Italy is down every year more.

Holland try to face the crisis, and i see (and hope will be so)  that my sacrifice will generate a future for me and my children.

SabrinaMineo wrote:

Just a question: Am I the only one Italian who likes to live here?
My only problem, for me, has been  - and could it be now - the dutch language for the skilled jobs and the english for the unskilled jobs.
I think that's normal; in Italy, if you don't speak italian you cannot get neither a tourist information.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe in a few months, or years, I will hate this place. But now, I think there's a difference between Italy and The Netherlands: In Italy, for many years you work heavily, I sacrifice my life in the hope that in the future I will get back somethings; My Parents did like me, and my Grandparents as well. And for what? nothing, because Italy is down every year more.

Holland try to face the crisis, and i see (and hope will be so)  that my sacrifice will generate a future for me and my children.

No, you are not the only Italian who I know like to live in the Netherlands.
My father 
He live almost 50 years here and he go only back to Italy for vacations and even then, not very often.

I have still the dream to live in Italy one day. For the moment I live a little more to the East.
Are you saying it is not worth it to live in Italy? In what way is Italy down more every year?

I try to explain my point of view (is correct "point of view"?)

In Italy you can live with dignity if you have a lot of money, right friends and good lawyer.
If you are a normal person (employed, sell-man, mecanichal worker, painter, teacher untill higher school) like majority of italians, you cannot live.
The life is expensive, very similar to The Netherlands, but the salary is low. Normally, in a family the parents get around 1.200 euro each, and the younger (if they work) get 800 euro per month. IF your sons are the university students, they are forced to work, because taxes in THE PUBLIC UNIVERSITY, books and public transport are expensive.
The food at supermarket is more expensive in Italy, because almost everythings have the BTW at 21%.
If you are lucky and you have a good job you cannot never get more then 1800.

numbers aside, I  don't like to see my city, Rome, abandoned like an old boot. Is dirty, the streets is a carpet of holes, the bus stop sometimes is a Tree (yes, the plant) or a iron stick without the quay, and sometimes without the sidewalk.
The public transport are inefficient. The bus are old, they're broken often, and a lot of them don't have the wheelchair ramp or space inside for wheelchair.
When I worked there, I needed two hours to come at work. walk>bus>train>bus> walk for just 25 km distance.
University is poor. Every year they don't have money for teacher, for room, for pc, for nothing.
Every years the government change, and change the minister of Public Education, and change the education reform, changing the route of the students during their study = confusion
Company are poor. Who was dishonest has been found (I use found, but they know exacly where they were and what they was doing) and has move his money (black and white) elsewhere. The small company are dying, killed to the taxes and more.
nobody have money for paying someone else. people don't spend money, company don't have money to pay workers, workers don't have money to spend. it's a vicious circle.
Every year we change government, every year someone inflict a stab to my country.

Italian politics is ridiculus, I think is not necessary talk about this.
And I prefer donìt talk about Italians (majoriy of them, I mean) because is my people and is not nice what I have to say about them.

Itay is a perfect place for vacation, for Erasmus students, for one year if you want. but not for all your life.

My parents are worked since they was 15. Now they are 61 and they have to work 7 years more (or maybe more) just for survive. And a lot of people like them.

The post is a bit sad, sorry. but actually I have to say just this about my country.

a little inside on the other side of the post card.
i`m a Dutch guy born and raised in the Netherlands.
i`v lived in Tokyo for 5 years and now i`m back.
and in that time i`v learned that Dutch people are extremely direct in communication.
and that is a trait that can sometimes offend other people.
for example :
if i were to ask how something looks on me, and they don`t like it.
in Japan the would say something like: the other thing looks better.
here the just say: no that's ugly.

so it`s understandable if you see it as rude.
but the Dutch people call that honesty.

I like this character, is not to be rude, it's frankness. It would be nice if everyone was so honest...commnication would be clear .  A lot of people thinks is not nice to be always frank....in my country, Italy, is the same....it's just one year that I live here, maybe in 5 years I will think that frankness is rude.

Hi Tommetje,

Welkom to this forum and welcome back in the Netherlands.

I think you are right, I had the same experiences when I visit the Netherlands for the first time after my emigration: they give their unsolicited opinion. It was for me a real eye opener and I would never thought about it when I stayed.
That is for me rude, not the honesty. Its the way you say it that makes the difference.

"Itay is a perfect place for vacation, for Erasmus students, for one year if you want. but not for all your life."  TRUE!

The rules.... Alles geregeld they say. And it is.  But sometimes too much, for example you cannot let a dog off a lead, ANYWHERE!  Even deep in a forest.   And believe me there are forest police on mountain bikes who will fine you - whaaaat????There's a person for every single task. This means it's well organised and the necessary attention is given however it means that in business they are democratic and slow. Each person can have their say, but the person in charge cant just decide. It also means their businesses can be very personal heavy because there is someone for everything. And if your paying out of your own pocket for something that is not a pleasant feeling.  They charge a lot for things and someone makes a very nice living from it. There is little competition in holland, spirits for example cannot be sold in a supermarket. That you buy at a specialist store and they charge much more.  That said, there are a lot more small businesses and who wants to work harder to sell more for a lower margin... always two sides of course.

  They are overly focused on details that don't matter in business. They are in general not good at problem solving, no really.  I hear this from many other businesses in other sectors and I see it too.

They're wonderful social people and very tolerant. One of the nicest nationalist idea I've had the pleasure of. But they're very conservative, almost stiff.  Any country that can be this clean and well organised must be a little over tight in its culture.   But it's clean and safe!

They're a little arrogant in the sense they think they know best, I deal with this evvvery day.  It's hard work!  But it's understandable to a certain extent. They have a good attitude a well functioning society a clean country that runs well. A stable economy and many more things and therefore they WILL think they know best; because for a large part they have done things right!  They're not good at adapting to outside thinking or other cultural ways. They would argue prefousely against such a statement  because they're great exporters, as is the most common counter argument.  But being an exporter of a business model or product to another country does not indicate adaptation; quite the opposite.


Oh and they invented the speed camera.   It's expensive because they literally hide them!!   Alles geregeld! 
But, it's still a fabulous country!

I second that too. The Dutch are masters in spending too  much time in talking and discussing during meetings while everything has said two months before.
Almost for every step you do you have a law or need permission, too many rules is one of the reasons I left the Netherlands.