Why don't Vietnamese understand Vietnamese spoken by a foreigner?

I as an american have had exactly the same problems. I can understand, and respond to, the worst possible English spoken to me. But when i give a well-spoken phrase in Thai, Chinese, Malay, i get a crooked head stare. If I say it again, maybe 3 times, the same way, they get it. What happened? Meantime this has caused me to give up on Asian languages.

I was with a Thai friend in Thailand, sitting in a restaurant. An american woman comes in by herself and orders several items, speaking Thai. My friend said, wow she speaks perfect Thai! But the clerk barely had a clue what she was talking about.

I think its not pronunciation as much as it is psychology. You dont expect  a certain person to speak the language, you freak out, you tune it out. Thats why someone is not being understood. Yes, tones make all the difference but people can figure at least from the context of the conversation whats MEANT but that doesnt seem to make any difference.

cvco wrote:

I as an american have had exactly the same problems. I can understand, and respond to, the worst possible English spoken to me. But when i give a well-spoken phrase in Thai, Chinese, Malay, i get a crooked head stare. If I say it again, maybe 3 times, the same way, they get it. What happened? Meantime this has caused me to give up on Asian languages.

I was with a Thai friend in Thailand, sitting in a restaurant. An american woman comes in by herself and orders several items, speaking Thai. My friend said, wow she speaks perfect Thai! But the clerk barely had a clue what she was talking about.

I think its not pronunciation as much as it is psychology. You dont expect  a certain person to speak the language, you freak out, you tune it out. Thats why someone is not being understood. Yes, tones make all the difference but people can figure at least from the context of the conversation whats MEANT but that doesnt seem to make any difference.

I think you have put your finger squarely on the problem. I get it all the time and it isn't a problem of tone since I can say: "Xin vui long them mot lon bia" (with apologies for the lack of accents and squiggly bits) with perfect intonation, according to my wife who is Vietnamese. But I often get the slack jawed response in bars and restaurants.

I think that it is because the recipient is simply not expecting me to speak Vietnamese. Looking at it logically, if we have just walked into a bar it is pretty obvious that we might want a drink and since one of the words I just uttered was bia (Beer, Bier all sound much the same anyway), it seems logical that I might want to drink bia. But not in Vietnam.

Another interesting thing I have found here is that people very often wont make contingency plans, but wait until something doesn't happen, or something goes wrong before making another plan. I found the same when I was working with a Chinese oil company in Iran. Contingency thinking was alien to the Chinese middle management and only just understood by senior management.

So, I had a little bit of a different experience.  I was out in a shopping mall in HCMC with a friend, sorta just wandering around and, just to be funny, I started reading the Vietnamese signs out loud, imitating a (nasally) Vietnamese accent.  I wasn't trying to be accurate, or thinking about it, I was just goofing around.  My friend stopped, turned to me and said, "Who taught you to speak Vietnamese?!"  As far as I can tell, she wasn't joking.  I said, "I have no idea what I'm saying, I'm just reading the sign!"  I did this a few more times, seemingly to her amazement, and she's not one to stroke my ego.  In fact, she's often pretty brutal and gives me a hard time for just about anything she can think of.  But in this case, she said my tones needed work, although she still understood me. 

Of course, it's impossible to know how we foreigners perceive the us speaking their language, but that incident makes me wonder how we sound to them.

DanFromSF wrote:

So, I had a little bit of a different experience.  I was out in a shopping mall in HCMC with a friend, sorta just wandering around and, just to be funny, I started reading the Vietnamese signs out loud, imitating a (nasally) Vietnamese accent.  I wasn't trying to be accurate, or thinking about it, I was just goofing around.  My friend stopped, turned to me and said, "Who taught you to speak Vietnamese?!"  As far as I can tell, she wasn't joking.  I said, "I have no idea what I'm saying, I'm just reading the sign!"  I did this a few more times, seemingly to her amazement, and she's not one to stroke my ego.  In fact, she's often pretty brutal and gives me a hard time for just about anything she can think of.  But in this case, she said my tones needed work, although she still understood me. 

Of course, it's impossible to know how we foreigners perceive the us speaking their language, but that incident makes me wonder how we sound to them.

You have the gift of mimicry! I have it too and can assume foreign accents very easily. I also quite often read signs in shop windows, adverts and so on out loud and very often my wife tells me that my pronunciation is spot on, but she then usually goes on to say that I should speak a lot more Vietnamese, that I am too lazy to learn to speak the beautiful language properly and ... yadda yadda yadda.

The truth is that I am lazy when it comes to learning Vietnamese, but in mitigation I have to say that I speak English, German (rusty now) a bit of French, some Italian, a sentence or two of Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese - and some really bad swear words), a bit of Gurkhali, I can greet people and order a beer and food in Portuguese. I think my brain is full now ...

I'm reminded of the time I walked into a cafe and confidently asked for a "cafe Sur Daa"...which was met with an obvious look of"What the !@#$%^ is this foreigner talking about!" Of course,I tried every which way  but that look of utter bewilderment on the part of the waiter just wouldn't go away.My look of frustration grew much quicker!"

hehe yesterday I asked a girl who could speak a bit English "em bao nhe tuoi?" (not sure the right spelling) and she didn't understand. She stared at me with big eyes wondering "what the f*** is he telling me?". Of course I tried to repeat many times and then I said very slowly "Dooooo youuuuu speakkkk vietnameeeessseeee?". I think she understood coz she replied "yes".
The I repeated one more time  "em bao nhe tuoi" and then she understood and repeated after me "ohhhh em bao nhe tuoi?? hihi", and I said "yesss, em bao nhe tuoi"....
You know, it's not like if I tried to speak German, Japanase or Chinese to her... I was just speaking HER LANGUAGE... her mother tongue...
Only in Vietnam hehe
But those things which make me surprised everyday are part of the things I love in this country

kyri wrote:

I'm reminded of the time I walked into a cafe and confidently asked for a "cafe Sur Daa"...which was met with an obvious look of"What the !@#$%^ is this foreigner talking about!" Of course,I tried every which way  but that look of utter bewilderment on the part of the waiter just wouldn't go away.My look of frustration grew much quicker!"

Wow, that's weird.  I can go anywhere and order a ca phe sua da, or ca phe sua nong and I get what I asked for, the first time.  Even from little old ladies on the street, selling out of a cooler, and I really can't speak much VN at all.  I wonder if it has something to do with the differences in our base accents (US vs Aus).

I have the same problem whenever I try to ask Thai of a place name, they never understand me except I repeat 3 or 4 times. I don't know of Thai language so I can't explain what is different between my pronunciation and their. But with Vietnamese we have 5 tones and 1 word normally have it's meaning. So if you are just rising or falling your voice, it will change the whole meaning. For instance, when you say "bạn" (you),you must use heavy tone,low your voice. If you use rising tone "bán" it become "sale", and it mean "table" if you use falling tone "bàn". Even though you speak the whole sentence it's is still diffcult to get the meaning. Vietnamese is quite difficult But as a Vietnamese I think most of us love it when we hear foreigner speak our language and we just try to help you speak clearly even though some people don't know how to teach you and you think they are rude, laugh at you,etc

Avi Tran wrote:

But as a Vietnamese I think most of us love it when we hear foreigner speak our language and we just try to help you speak clearly even though some people don't know how to teach you and you think they are rude, laugh at you,etc

Yes, I have noticed that when I try to say some words, Vietnamese people laugh at me, but I don't think they are being rude, they are just laughing because I sound funny to them.  Then I laugh too.

Sometimes I wonder what I really say when I try to speak Vietnamese, but it's impossible to know, and I find that the most frustrating.

But, you know, in the US, in certain cities like San Francisco Chinatown, there are people who came from China and have lived there for 30 years or more and they never learned English, because they never had to.  I don't want to be like those people, so I try to learn some Vietnamese.  Maybe in 30 years, somebody will understand me.

So if I said to someone who has their daughter standing next to them...con gái của bạn, if I dont say it right they might think Im asking if the child is for sale or is a table.If people actually put in an effort they will be able to decifer what you are saying.

cvco wrote:

I as an american have had exactly the same problems. I can understand, and respond to, the worst possible English spoken to me. But when i give a well-spoken phrase in Thai, Chinese, Malay, i get a crooked head stare. If I say it again, maybe 3 times, the same way, they get it. What happened? Meantime this has caused me to give up on Asian languages.

I was with a Thai friend in Thailand, sitting in a restaurant. An american woman comes in by herself and orders several items, speaking Thai. My friend said, wow she speaks perfect Thai! But the clerk barely had a clue what she was talking about.

I think its not pronunciation as much as it is psychology. You dont expect  a certain person to speak the language, you freak out, you tune it out. Thats why someone is not being understood. Yes, tones make all the difference but people can figure at least from the context of the conversation whats MEANT but that doesnt seem to make any difference.

Context is important too but i dont think it is important more than pronunciation. Even in English, once i got off a bus in London and forgot my food. I returned and talked to the driver that i left my food on the bus (my pronuncuation is without t or d) then he pointed to my foot and said they are still there. lol

cvco wrote:

I as an american have had exactly the same problems. I can understand, and respond to, the worst possible English spoken to me. But when i give a well-spoken phrase in Thai, Chinese, Malay, i get a crooked head stare. If I say it again, maybe 3 times, the same way, they get it. What happened? Meantime this has caused me to give up on Asian languages.

I was with a Thai friend in Thailand, sitting in a restaurant. An american woman comes in by herself and orders several items, speaking Thai. My friend said, wow she speaks perfect Thai! But the clerk barely had a clue what she was talking about.

I think its not pronunciation as much as it is psychology. You dont expect  a certain person to speak the language, you freak out, you tune it out. Thats why someone is not being understood. Yes, tones make all the difference but people can figure at least from the context of the conversation whats MEANT but that doesnt seem to make any difference.

Context is important too but i dont think it is important more than pronunciation. Even in English, once i got off a bus in London and forgot my food. I returned and talked to the driver that i left my food on the bus (my pronuncuation was without t or d) then he pointed to my foot and said they are still there. lol

Right....what I meant was that context is important when people are desperate, not that its more important than pronounciation. Someone speaking poorly to me, i cant still figure it out but to asians, hmm not so much.

The problem is you have no idea how you sound to them.  You could be saying, "where's the bathroom?" and to them it might sound like "two-face momma living in a banana patch".  If that's what they hear, no amount of context is going to help  clue them into pointing to the bathroom.  Unless you point to your junk.

As someone mentioned the pronuciations of bạn, ban, bán, bàn, bản are same same for foreigners but their meanings are so different

dinhHien2006 wrote:

As someone mentioned the pronuciations of bạn, ban, bán, bàn, bản are same same for foreigners but their meanings are so different

Yes thats quite true, if I was in a furniture store and Iasked about a table, I would presume they could ascertain we are in a furniture shop and maybe Im looking for a table.

I was recently down in a very small village near Trà Vinh, I stopped at a small roadside shop that sold drinks. The guy had only 10 drinks for sale so I thought it would be easy for him to understand what I was about to say. I said "trà xanh" he just looked at me with that blank expression, I repeated it 3 times to no avail, I then showed him and he said exactly what I had said. Having so very few products for sale I would of thought he could of picked up on what I wanted.

DanFromSF wrote:

The problem is you have no idea how you sound to them.  You could be saying, "where's the bathroom?" and to them it might sound like "two-face momma living in a banana patch".  If that's what they hear, no amount of context is going to help  clue them into pointing to the bathroom.  Unless you point to your junk.

Yeah, but many times I am out with the missus and I ask a waiter / waitress for a beer, or coffee and I get that uncomprehending stare and my missus tells me that I spoke my request with perfect intonation.

eodmatt wrote:

Yeah, but many times I am out with the missus and I ask a waiter / waitress for a beer, or coffee and I get that uncomprehending stare and my missus tells me that I spoke my request with perfect intonation.

Weird.  I always assumed when I'm not understood that I'm saying it wrong.  Now I wonder if it has something to do with simply being a foreigner.  I'll have to investigate more.

I do believe wrote:

But really how hard is it to understand "cà phê sữa dá, ít sữa"???

Your ordering a coffee with jellyfish and ice!!!!
Thats my standing joke on pronunciation and tones. I am in a coffee shop, what else would I be ordering especially if I have the menu open. Monty Python could have a field day here.

My thoughts like some of the others is that the Viets do not expect to hear Vietnamese from a foreigner and so do not listen for it. I lived in Thailand for a few years and just forged through with the language. But what I did there was to preface my sentence with "Sawadee khrap" (Hello) or "Sabai Dee Mai" (are you well). Both being very common phrases and easy to say AND be understood. I found that by doing that it got the listener into the "right" frame of mind.   Oh this farang is speaking thai to me. When I did that I was understood more. I also think even with tones Thai might be a bit more forgiving or the Thais are better at working it out.

So is there a similar opening Vietnamese phrase we can use here, Hello, Nice day, Suns Up???

On dialects , Yes my GF had problems last week in Can Thanh understanding the locals, so you might say what hope have we got!

She also tells me that for her ears if I use the wrong tone I am saying some thing completely different. Akin to us saying completely different words.   I mentioned Sua above but she tells me for them there is no similarity at all between the words for Milk and Jellyfish. The tone is different and so you might as well be saying apples and oranges. (probably not a good analogy).

In reverse I have another vietnamese friend who is trying to speak english "like a native". He is spending hours in front of a mirror mimicking mouth shape and movement. To get the sound right, Because of course some of the ways we make sound are not used when they speak Vietnamese. So similarly the way we have to speak vietnamese would also involve us learning a new way to make sounds, dont move your lips, the sound comes from the stomach, dont move the tounge, etc etc

Last thought,, from an American who has lived here for 14 years,, when you learn vietnamese and you think you have it right and it sounds wrong, it probably is right.

gordsellar wrote:

try the following litmus test: talk to a stranger on the phone, and see how long it takes before they figure out you're not Vietnamese, and see whether their comprehension changes when they do figure it out.

THREE years living in thailand and I could not get "Hello" right!!!!
I would answer the phone , say "hello" and there would be silence!!

Love the rest of your post and this whole thread.

Teacher Mark wrote:

Here's the State Department's Vietnamese familiarization  course.  It was produced in the southern dialect, I think.  Drill your pronunciation.

http://fsi-language-courses.org/Content … Vietnamese

UPDATED LINK(S):

This is the best of the 3, IMHO:

http://www.101languages.net/vietnamese/ … se-course/

ALTERNATE LINK 1

http://fsi-languages.yojik.eu/languages/vietnamese.html

ALTERNATE LINK 2

https://www.livelingua.com/fsi-vietnamese-course.php

Maybe I just have a nack for mimicking sounds well but I've been here for a year and a half and the locals often understand me. Especially if I'm asking for something simple like cafe sua da. I think the tones are what you really REALLY need to focus on. I don't practice enough since, according to my Vietnamese girlfriend, I'm very lazy when it comes to learning. But during my first year here I did spend a lot of time trying to nail the tones and sounds of Vietnamese alphabet. I've been told numerous times that my pronunciation is very good. heh...

I've been here a few years and don't speak Vietnamese that well; even with four months of instruction at the local University, I presume I speak with an accent although that term doesn't seem to be used by the Vietnamese. I do all the daily transactions in life in Vietnamese and get along well. If I'm doing a large purchase or something complicated I always make sure I have a bilingual Vietnamese lady with me because of my limited vocabulary. I still can't get over that one Vietnamese will tell me I speak so well and another that I speak so poorly let alone the ones who understand nothing. If I speak to a waiter/waitress and get the blank stare, I just figure they are challenged individuals.

" I still can't get over that one Vietnamese will tell me I speak so well and another that I speak so poorly let alone the ones who understand nothing. If I speak to a waiter/waitress and get the blank stare, I just figure they are challenged individuals."
Same with my French associate who has lived here for 14 yrs, he speaks fluent Viet, ( which of course is much easier for a French person, something some Viets cannot understand, I get sick of VN's asking me why can't I speak Viet like him??? ), BUT, he still can't understand many of the local farmers, or any Viet spoken on a phone.
   Now when I'm asked why I don't speak much Viet, I give 2 answers, 1, I live in central VN, 2 -3 different dialects.  2, I say to them, " I don't laugh at YOUR attempts at English, and if I don't understand you, I really try and work out what you're trying to say ".
  I learn Viet on a " need to know basis ". if I need to know a word or phrase, I will try and learn it.
  And I usually have a VN write something in Viet if I think it's important, but many times I'm actually left wondering if some VN's can even read when they look at the paper???

eclipsemod wrote:

Maybe I just have a nack for mimicking sounds well but I've been here for a year and a half and the locals often understand me. Especially if I'm asking for something simple like cafe sua da. I think the tones are what you really REALLY need to focus on. I don't practice enough since, according to my Vietnamese girlfriend, I'm very lazy when it comes to learning. But during my first year here I did spend a lot of time trying to nail the tones and sounds of Vietnamese alphabet. I've been told numerous times that my pronunciation is very good. heh...

Yes, you do have a knack for mimicking  sounds. Part of the problem is that people seem to be using vernacular that is non standard. Get out and listen to how people speak. Prosody, word usage etc.. If for example; I were to say to you, "Say old Bean, where may one find the accouterments for a well heeled gentlemen"? It is entirely possible that you would think I was crazy; however, many of the sentence constructs used as examples here come across thusly; moreover, you have a tendency to address people, for want of a better word, wrongly! Bottom line,you will be understood when you got it. Until then keep trying or go home.

Somewhat apropos to the subject, I ran across this line from a Korean language textbook. It sounds to me as if it applies to Vietnamese too:

"Koreans do not expect foreigners in their country to even attempt to learn their language. The simple fact of the matter is that it is extremely rare for a westerner to learn Korean, and so the vast majority of Koreans have never once in their lives had the experience of speaking Korean with a foreigner. While some Koreans are flattered by the interest that is thus shown in their culture, most are clearly initially confused by and uncomfortable with the experience."

While I won't deny that the sound system of Vietnamese is quite involved and not easy for foreigners to learn, I believe that there is more than a little of the same element to be found in the Vietnamese attitude toward foreigners learning their language.

This topic is funny and amazing... we all come from all over the world and we all encounter the same issues with Vietnamese... there is Vietnam and the rest of the world. It sometimes seems we're talking about animal and trying to figure out how we can communicate with them

palomnik wrote:

Somewhat apropos to the subject, I ran across this line from a Korean language textbook. It sounds to me as if it applies to Vietnamese too:

"Koreans do not expect foreigners in their country to even attempt to learn their language. The simple fact of the matter is that it is extremely rare for a westerner to learn Korean, and so the vast majority of Koreans have never once in their lives had the experience of speaking Korean with a foreigner. While some Koreans are flattered by the interest that is thus shown in their culture, most are clearly initially confused by and uncomfortable with the experience."

While I won't deny that the sound system of Vietnamese is quite involved and not easy for foreigners to learn, I believe that there is more than a little of the same element to be found in the Vietnamese attitude toward foreigners learning their language.

y

Agree to a point, I find after living here for 8 years it just comes down to pure laziness. If the thing was that it was all about not expecting to hear a foreigner speak Vietnamese, then why do some people listen and reply and others dont.

MatthiasB wrote:
It's not just the northern/southern/central sounds, nor the accents. It's the cadence of the language. Without a natural flow (as emmy.vn points out, the gaps), it's difficult for native speakers to properly identify the sound clusters that differentiate between words. In other words, if you don't pause for just the right amount of time between syllables, it becomes muddy, and difficult to decipher. It's almost as important as the tones.

Once one has a good grip on the southern accent, the northern accent is just the switch from the southern accent.  For example, in south to north order, the tido accent in the south is pronounced as the acute accent in the north.  The hook accent in the south is pronounced as a dot at the bottom in the north.  The acute and grave accents stay the same from north to south.  The consonant R from the south is pronounced Z in the north.  The words a written the same with the same accent but they are pronounced with different accent.  The north also has different choice of words but these are very minor.  For example, from English to south to north order, Tea, Tra, Che . . .  Alley, Hem, Ngo . . . Under-weight over-weight, Om Map, Gay Beo . .. etc . . . These VN words are without accents because I have trouble typing them.

Interested to see MatthiasB say between syllables, as far as Im aware all Vietnamese words have one syllable. Thats why they have several words to make a single English word.

All of you should not worry about that!

1/ Tiếng Việt is so hard to learn with many reson. The most important is tone ( like singing) and almost words are Hán Việt such as " phụ " the main meaning ( Tiếng Việt ) is help ( somebody to do some thing). In short meaning of "phụ bạc", "phụ tình". In Hán Việt have another mean are Dad ( when Children using ), husband (when the wife using).
2/ I'm Vietnamese and many many time i don't understand the story between my wife and her sister 

tranus wrote:

This topic is funny and amazing... we all come from all over the world and we all encounter the same issues with Vietnamese... there is Vietnam and the rest of the world. It sometimes seems we're talking about animal and trying to figure out how we can communicate with them

Hello!
I read through your comment, I knew why she didn't understand you, you must say "em bao nhieu tuoi". You say vietnamese not correct, so it quite difficult for her to understand you
However, everybody is different, goot or not good it depend on you are lucky or not. If you r unlucky, you will meet bad people
I hope, when you come back Vietnam you will meet good people and Vietnam in your eyes will be better
I am Vietnamese, i still love this country eventhough some people make me disappointed with their habbit

Best regard!

Thongdong wrote:

Hello!
I read through your comment, I knew why she didn't understand you, you must say "em bao nhieu tuoi". You say vietnamese not correct, so it quite difficult for her to understand you
However, everybody is different, goot or not good it depend on you are lucky or not. If you r unlucky, you will meet bad people
I hope, when you come back Vietnam you will meet good people and Vietnam in your eyes will be better
I am Vietnamese, i still love this country eventhough some people make me disappointed with their habbit

Best regard!

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough: I love Vietnam!! And most of the vietnamese people are friendly like most of the people in the world.
And by the way, I'm half Vietnamese...
I just explained how hard it was to communicate with locals.
Indeed, Vietnamese language really pisses me off!!
Too much pain to learn few words. With any other languages, I would have been fluent for a long time already.
And I'm sorry to say that but Vietnamese people are not good at guessing. Even with the context, they can't understand.
When a Vietnamese is speaking broken English, everybody make efforts to understand him.
One thing is sure, Vietnamese can't be an international language.

Thongdong wrote:

Hello!
I read through your comment, I knew why she didn't understand you, you must say "em bao nhieu tuoi". You say vietnamese not correct, so it quite difficult for her to understand you

Ok I made a mistake because I didn't how to spell it but I know a little bit how to pronounce it.
Luckily some people can understand.
Vietnamese language is not a forgiving language. Just a small mistake and the guy is lost (with his native language...).
In western school, we usually have exercise like:
"Hello, my ........ is Robert. I am 30 ...... old" and we have to fill up for example with "name" and "years".
We just try to understand the context and guess which word can fit.
Maybe in Vietnam you should have more exercise like that.
Oh sorry but each time I talk about this topic, I'm a bit frustrated...
Vietnam is awesome but not his language haha

vietnamese is a phonetic language ...if you don't pronounce it exactly.the word gives a different meaning

You cant promote your business on this forum.

There's no conspiracy. The simple fact is that your pronunciation is incorrect. It's as simple as that.  I don't want to sound big headed but I can speak Vietnamese fluently and I rarely have a problem. My advice to you would be to stick to the northern dialect and pronunciation. It's more precise than the southern dialect and much easier to distinguish between the various tones. Persevere. You will get there if you keep trying. I also felt similar feeling when I was learning it.

dasiavu wrote:

There's no conspiracy. The simple fact is that your pronunciation is incorrect. It's as simple as that.  I don't want to sound big headed but I can speak Vietnamese fluently and I rarely have a problem. My advice to you would be to stick to the northern dialect and pronunciation. It's more precise than the southern dialect and much easier to distinguish between the various tones. Persevere. You will get there if you keep trying. I also felt similar feeling when I was learning it.

Wao, you can speak Vietnamese fluently. I really want to talk with you one day