Selling property in belize

But some may. Depends what you build. Where you build. And whether the market is buoyant or depressed.

abelizehomeforus.wordpress.com

I saw this post on the other blog and  I had a look at their website and I must say it is a beautiful place. 
The author seemed to focus on two main issues.
That realtors are not selling her house
that building a house in Belize is not easy

I have been in Belize for just under 6 months now. I am a looking for a home to spend the next phase of my life in. I am a genuine buyer. And while I understand her frustration in trying to sell her home - I as one of the potential target market - am equally frustrated. Here is why.

I've been to realtors with a shopping list of things that I am looking for in a home here, and for the most part, they just don't have many properties on the books with my list of requirements. My requirements are simple and very basic, possibly too simple and too basic.
I don't think that my requirements are in anyway unique, as I have also met with other retired couples who are having the very same issues.

We want something small and simple - we didn't come to Belize to be burdened with a large property. ( I did that for years)
I want something that is close to town. I want to be able to enjoy the culture and activities of the country and do not want to be isolated.
I also do not want to be in an ‘expat only' community - I want to enjoy the people - all of the people
I don't want to have to drive more than a mile or two down a rutted dirt road. A few hundred feet - sure - but I don't want to feel like I've entered in the Dakar Rally every time I want a liter of milk.
I don't want to be off the grid - I did that for many years in Africa. I need High Speed internet for my business - so that is not negotiable
I don't want to invest more than $50 - 75K in a property here - or anywhere for that matter.
I want a low value investment that I could either walk away from if I have to or sell to a local Belizean if I need to leave at any point in the future ( Not something that would only appeal to other expats, which limits the market)

And it appears that my dream is impossible to find here - realtors have very few properties like that on the books - so my only option is to build. And while I absolutely abhor the idea of building - it's either that - or go elsewhere.
So while we both came here with dreams - my dream is very different from hers. You can't sell the emotional factor - it doesn't have a value. The buyer doesn't care how much love and attention she may have put into it. We look at more practical issues.

When I look at the property market here, I see too many mega mansions being built or nice homes with acres of property to maintain.  What is a retired person going to do with a 2 -3000 sq ft house? Didn't we just leave that all behind?
Most people on these blogs state that they aspire to a simple life - some off the grid - so why are contractors and developers building McMansions  - who is going to live in them? Who is going to spend a quarter of a million on a 3rd world experiment?

We “the new immigrants” have also been sold an unrealistic set of expectations by  ‘International Living” and other retirement advice sites. Cheap living in Belize - food and rum may be cheap, but housing is not.

When we finally arrive at these idyllic locations, you feel like fresh meat to the slaughter. I see expat contractors coming here and building houses on spec for less than $55 a square foot and trying to sell that same place for more than $125 a square foot to other expats. An expat contractor is no guarantee that you won't get shoddy workmanship.

As I mentioned on a previous thread - As a buyer, you know that there are two prices for everything here - the Belizean price and the expat price - what you don't expect is that these rip-offs seem to be coming from other ex-pats.
Looking at the asking prices, it just seems easier to build it yourself. (even if you really don't want to build)
Sure, some new expat arrivals do buy existing homes- and some even buy sight unseen at those high prices. They have paid too much at the onset. And while the developers made their money, the homeowner, when they come to sell a few years later, probably won't get their investment back.
And like any other property market in the world, if you over capitalize, you very seldom get a good return.

I still find it hard to justify spending more for a house in Belize than for a house in Florida or Arizona. I bough a small house  in Florida last year for a fraction of the price that I am seeing here.
After hearing one sad story after another - mostly of people having to leave suddenly, it makes other retirees cautious about wanting to fork out a quarter of a million dollars in cash - for something you may never be able to sell.

Very well written and gave voice to many of my thoughts and concerns.  There is much to be said for ownership of property and a house.  Call it the pride of ownership, something that has been warmly embraced by us Americans and encouraged.  Even the US government through the tax code.  OK, no time for a rant here.  For me renting is the obvious choice based on these factors.  My age, I am nearing SS retirement age.  I currently own no property here in the US.  How long will I live in Belize?  This is something none of us know.  Renting or buying both involve an outlay of money.  At my age renting is the obvious choice, I can walk away from it!  If I were 20 or 30 the dynamics totally change.  Guess the first question to ask is "why do I want to own?"

Thank you both for the thought provoking responses.

Yes, renting is attractive, but there is a shortage of quality rentals for a reasonable price.  What I do find is that even belizean style homes get marked up if they are close to town and walk-able -- at least here in San Ignacio.  I see crap houses 2 blocks of the main road Burns Avenue selling for $125,000 US.  Those homes should be torn down, but at that price who can do it and afford to build?  And 1/2 acre lots on the outskirts of town are $35,000 - $50,000 US, which makes it tough to get that house up for under $75,000.  So you are right to say that retire-overseas media are exaggerating when they say you can make it on a social security check -- sure, if the house is already paid for, perhaps.  And as said above, the houses being built are not ideal for retirees in the way they are designed.  So there seems to be an increase in willing buyers but not the inventory -- maybe that raises the price some, but I keep getting sticker-shock even on raw land.

Thank you and completely understand where you are coming from and your reality, Prestonia.  Today, unfortunately, the correlation  between real value and price is based, in so many instances, on nothing more than what someone will pay.  Remember tulip bulbs in Holland?

yes, but tulip bulbs were an efficient market -- they actually had an exchange for them.

The Market in Belize is completely inefficient.  You might see a property listed for $200,000 but the owner sells in desperation for $100,000.  there is no publicly available database to look up what the home actually sold for.  In fact, it is common for the buyer and seller to report an even lower price to the government to lessen the tax paid (though they have been making a strong push to stop this recently.)

If the buyers knew that a house in the vicinity of where they are looking just sold for half price, they would put in lower bids.

I also know that many real estate agents refuse to list a property unless the commission will be high enough for them (as if 10% commission didn't already pay enough.)  So they aren't going to list that Belizean-owned lot for $7500 because the commision is only $750 and deemed not worth their time.  I actually know someone who was told that they would need to raise the price of their land or it would not be listed -- this was by a reputable raal estate firm that everyone recommends here.

So the buyers are not driving the the price and the real prices are hidden.  this means if you want to buy land you have to do one of 2 things -- pay a premium for the land or start talking to locals to see who wants to sell.  Expat real estate agents prey on the expat costomer fear that they will be ripped off.  They proudly display these rip off stories on their websites to make sure you go through them.

So we have a system where the inventory is priced to the benefit of the owners with encouragement to keep prices high from the agents.

When I first came to Belize I wanted a larger acreage.  I was told by agents that the going rate in Cayo was $1500-$2000 per acre.  I by chance was buying things from an Indian shop owner and he told me he had overstocked for christmas and was now going to have to sell some land to pay those debts.  He sold me 93 acres at less than $400 per acre.  (Unfortunately, my needs have changed and I no longer want to manage that much land.)  The cheaper land is out there, but you need to find the sellers on your own, unfortunately.  ( I bought that acreage in 2003, the low end is probably different now.)

I agree with Prestonia about the availability of good quality rentals, at least in the Corozal area. Unless you get lucky - renting is not a good long term option.

When you do a head count of the number of people on the various Expat.coms that are coming here to build and need a place to stay or those coming to look around for 6 months plus - add in the people you know who are already here and renting, if even half of those follow through with their plans, there won't be anywhere near enough long term rental accommodations.  Which means that rental prices will end up increasing.

I'm currently renting, but have been told that the house I'm in may have been sold - so as of November -I'll be needing to find another place. I actually don't think the place has been sold ( as no one has come to look at it?) - but the owners (expat) want us to move out, so that they can get a higher price on short term winter rentals than what we are paying now.

So while we ( I do it too) recommend to people to come here and stay for a year to get the feel for Belize -  'see if you can adapt to life here' and 'don't   buy anything for at least a year'- the reality is that it may not be that easy to find a place to rent. But that may the a topic for a separate thread.

I'm seriously thinking of moving to San Ignacio in November simply because of the lack of available winter rentals in Corozal, which would probably mean that if I buy land - it would probably end up being there too.

While I'm ranting - back to selling property in Belize - why do sellers here put their asking price at so much more than they realistically expect to achieve?
You see so many ads here for " reduced prices", but not by a slight reduction - but up to 50% of the original asking price.  It only tells me that the sellers expectation was totally unrealistic to start. It makes me think that they were not looking for a buyer, they were looking for a sucker and now they need a buyer. 
But by inflating that first asking price, many buyers just move on, not even bothering to make an offer.  So these houses just sit, sometimes for years, often deteriorating to the point where they become inhabitable.

Design is critical for the hot humid climate. Most houses I've seen for sale are built like pizza ovens. No consideration is given to having good air circulation or screened patio area/s with large overhangs for the rain- or even something that is off the ground, a design which is rare here.

A quick internet search would tell you that all of that exists only a few miles away in Tulum MX, and at much better asking prices.
 
While I love it here - the net result of my investigations - While there are plenty of houses for sale, buying is most likely out of the question in Corozal.  The houses that are for sale in Corozal are either too big for my needs, overpriced and/or totally unsuitable for this climate (IMHO). I guess a swimming pool would be asking too much.

I too have heard of some 'very reputable' real estate agents putting up prices. But I though it was an isolated or local Corozal issue.
I saw a piece of land that I was very interested in. It was advertised for an asking price of $10,000 FSBO.  I later saw that same land, now with an estate agent, for $15,500. I know its only a small amount and I do understand that everyone has to make a profit, but the land is not worth more than $6000 to begin with ( listed Tax value is for $4000). Someone bought the lot next door for $5000 from a local. I can give you 3 other examples of the very same scenario.
I've heard other stories of agents adding $20,000 on to the price, even without the owner's knowledge, on property out by 4Mile Lagoon.
And you are so right about the scare tactics.   

That plus the failed attempts at 'overpriced expat resort communities'.

All of this is a big part of the reason why people should spend a year down here before purchasing. It's too bad that Belize has turned out this way.

Nichi,
OK I will try and explain why 'YOU' don't have a clue about Expat Builders 'costs' to build in Belize and what a home build project in Belize actually involves.

I will try to explain that building smaller is not always cheaper.

1st of all what 'YOU' seek in a property, is 'YOUR OWN' personal preference.Why would you think anyone else wants what you want

There are people out there looking to buy 2-3000ft homes that are well designed, well built and not everyone wants to live life simple, some do want A/C in every room and a Pool.

As I said, I believe you don't know what is involved in building in Belize, so here's the rundown.
If you have not built in Belize before, good luck you will need it, you already said you know there are 2 prices in Belize,

Belize price and Gringo price.

You will also soon discover after 100's of miles running around looking for that 1 screw and a few trips to Belize City for the PUC/CBA, that in fact you are doing exactly what you set out not to.

OK
This very depends on Location and Location!!

Depending if you want to go it alone, or on an expat community development, will depend on the cost of land, the development way for land is anything from $10K and up, and usually up.

Stand alone land in town will be around again around $10K and up, and only if you are lucky, most cleared and already filled, are $ up.

Stand alone land, in rural areas are usually cheaper but you will more than likely have to clear it, fill it and provide power and water.
It will also cost more in the way of logistics for the whole build project.

Then you will need to find a Belizean Engineer or Architect

Then you need to get through the PUC/CBA process

Then you need to find someone to build it.

If you don't have a clue about building standards, then it would be wise to find someone to look for Quality and Quantity.

One of the biggest factors involved is the logistics of a build project, one such is just finding the right block-man, this can be a challenge in its own right and you better be sure that he puts in enough cement into the mix when batching.

But all of this comes with experience something you just dont have Nichi.

You said you feel like fresh meat and have seen Expats building for $55 and selling for $125, well heres the lowdown on costs, so not sure where you get this $55 from.

These figures DO NOT include any preparation of land or providing power or water or fill or any specialist foundations, this is for basic build and average quality Fixtures and Fittings all sourced locally.

Land                   $15K
Design,Drawings& CBA   $3K

So far your in it for 18K
If your planning building 1000ft your already in it for $18 a foot before you even break ground.
Double up to 2000ft and your in it for $9,
$9000US gets you your Kitchen Fixtures & Fittings

Ok lets stick with your 1000 foot home, that's just over 30'x 30'.

To Control every aspect of the build of a 1000ft concrete home yourself and getting local labour to build. 
$25K in Labour Costs alone.
Good luck in finding a team of good honest quality labour

Then your looking at a min of $35/40K for materials, this does not include materials for the building process i.e Lumber for form-work, nails, screws, construction power, construction water, hire of specialist tools, basic hand tools, drinking water for workers, shelter and welfare facilities for workers (unless you expect them to go do it in the bush), protective clothing & equipment for workers.

Then you have to get everything and everyone to your site, Logistics, logistics Costs $$$$$ Take a guess but then you said you didnt want to drive a lot

So add up the very basics and you in it for a basic 1000ft home and on a basic piece of land your looking at around 80K Min

You then have to add your cost of living while you build, just as do the expat builders who don't normally earn anything until they sell something...

The 125K a foot you spoke of can be seen, but this is usually for better quality homes on more exclusive and therefore more expensive land and they still have to make this thing, that we all survive on, called profit, lets face it that's how you managed to be able to retire in Belize.

What you also fail to take into consideration is that why would an expat builder come to Belize and want to earn less than he could do in the States, you are getting a quality service for normal prices that you just would not get from a Belizean for the same service, go check out the prices for a quality service you get from Belizeans they cost just as much.

I think you are very unfair in dragging down the Expat builder, he/she has done all the hard work and running around for you and had to already pay for the learning curve, that you or anyone else will soon find when you build your own

Again good luck, my guess is your gonna need it.

https://www. facebook.com/groups/146462152207271/

facebook page for rentals in Belize

Mcagun

First, I did state right up front that my "dream" for a small house here was perhaps different from the women who was trying to sell her property and acreage.
I only stated that homes of the size that I am looking for are scarce here, yet there are many, many mega homes sitting empty and for sale.

And just because it is more cost efficient for a builder to build an optimum sized building - doesn't mean it is what I want.
I'm not buying for the needs of a builder - I'm buying because I want something to live in that is practical and that works for me.

I also read the Expat.coms where most people claim they are coming to Belize to simplify and downsize their lives. There is a market sector that is not catered for by the existing homes or the new construction.

I may not have experience building or as a contractor- I never claimed to have it - but I am a genuine buyer.
That does make my opinion worth something, in that these expat builders have to sell to someone. 

If contractors are building what buyers don't want, then the price per sq ft is a mute point, doesn't really matter. If they are building what buyers want, then why are so many McMansion houses for sale?

I have bought houses all over the world, even in Africa, where I can promise you, conditions for building here are luxurious by comparison.

Maybe we should open this up to the blog:
Should an  expat contractor expect the same level of profit here as the in US or Canada, when a US trained Belizean doctor or dentist or vet charges less that one in the US or Canada; why should an expat contractor's profits be sacred? 

Lastly, even if you were right on all counts -  I am the one that is going to part with my money -  I think I should have some say as to what I am willing to pay for.

Prestonia, Thanks for bringing this post over to the Expat.coms. I have been following this thread on the other site. It has definitely sparked for great conversation and concerns about buying and building in Belize.

Both you and Nichi have all good points and I couldn't agree with you both more.

I understand the perspectives of all participants.  Thank you Prestonia, Nichi, & McGun.
 
A house located in Corozal for under $70k is possible.   We found them, when we were looking in May.  Our realtor kept trying to show us things for over $100k and out in the boonies of expat land even tho we told her we wanted to live in a Belizean neighborhood. 

There are 4 houses for rent in Corozal near the ocean so A/C is not needed, that I know of.   so there have to be others. 

My rental house did not have everything I wanted.  So I had a cabinet buit for my bath that I can move with me.  Same in the kitchen.  Added an a/c in the br.  I will put up a temporary car-port for our car when we finally get it out of customs clutches. 

I also think some of these rentals can be purchased, when the time is right.  It is possible to buy a house inexpensively here in Corozal.  Building new will cost more based on my observation and what all of you are telling me.

Nichi is correct in pointing out that the buyer determines the market.  And she is saying there is a market niche that wants a 1000 sqft for $70k in town.  McGun is painfully astute in pointing out that the Belizean standards for quality, design and performance are uniquely Belizean.   Electrical and plumbing issues are very dicey here.  the one plumber I know is a very lovely man who knows almost nothing about plumbing, including basic laws of gravity and inertia.  I found a talented ethical electrician from Orange walk.  I kiss his feet and pay twice as much as I should, happily.   

In the past in the USA,I have served as my own contractor.  I would not attempt that here.   This is Belize, a Happy place so we just roll with it and do the next right thing.   Kris

Nichi
I also agree with everything you said all I was pointing out was that expat builders or even Belizean for that matter want a fair price for what they do, I could never compete with a Belizean contractor
I just don't have his resources, but then again the Belizean does not have mine, we cater for different markets.

If I am to risk 100K+ on a build project then I want a return for my risk, not to mention all the hard work, but it must be fair or I will never off-load it, or get a return.
Like I said earlier there is still money to be made, but it will be me that is on the trowel, 'sticking block man' it will be me throwing cement on walls and me 'sticking tile man', this is where I differ from most I do my own work.
My 1st home I built took me nearly 5 years to complete coming over to Belize every January for the month and doing as much as I could in the month, so in reality it took me under 5 month in all, but the lesson cost me and it was a step curve to get know how Belize construction workers operate.

You are 100% right there is a market  for under 100K, it's just not my market.
There is also a market for rentals at around $250US a month long term, if I could have 8 of these then  this would sustain my living that I am used to, but I would need over 300k to start up

[Moderated: pls send personals details via a pm]

Hi,

Please note that i have created a new thread as from Prestonia post on the Belize Forum

Some off topic posts have been removed from this discussion

Thank you

Maximilien

mmaximillian....   I think you are overmanaging this thread.  there has been valuable information exchanged.    just my opinion.   Hasta