Labor, legal, and immigration questions

And if "God is not willing" then what? Great questions though, I hope you will get answers.

Sounds to me like you shouldn't pack your bags just yet, nor should you quit job hunting. Like the old boomtown saying goes... "All that glitters is not gold."

Thanks, me too.

"f I am being provided a company car" insurance is mandatory in Saudi, and depending on your driving you can avoid collisions (I have been thankfully collision free for a year and a half). since it would be insured you will be fine.

•    What kind of cell phone, if any, will be provided? What are its capabilities? Will there be a data/minutes limit?

you can buy your own cell phone or have your current carrier in the US give you the unlock code for your current phone (it must have a sim card lot like the ones from T mobile). You can customize your own plans or get a pre paid sim card (which you can add services too)

•    [Name omitted] mentioned there may be trips to Dubai in the future?

Make sure they give a visa that allows unlimited entries and exits so you can come and go as you please

•    What should I do during scheduled prayer time?

personally I do what ever I want. It is a free country *pfff*

I only answered questions that I can and gave the advices I know and work by

I'm the poster who said you're too young (barely 23 years old) to take on such a responsible job in the Kingdom.  Add to that your lack of overseas travel experience.  Given the list of 'concerns' you've provided (some of which should have been brought up during your interview), I'm staunchly sticking by that advice.  Your expectations are way too high and your cultural awareness extremely low.  From the employer's perspective, your gazillion, uber-picky questions are off-putting; he's very likely thinking you're high maintenance and that you can't handle ambiguity nor do you possess solid decision-making and managerial skills.  (The closing of your communication to the employer hints of desperation and comes across as superficial because you just interrogated the guy with a barrage of questions.)

By the way, it's typical to just receive a job offer letter outlining salary, benefits, and conditions in lieu of the contract.  But rest assured, there will be a contract.  That is, you have to be in Saudi Arabia to sign the actual employment agreement which subsequently, establishes your start (joining) and contract end dates.

Anyway, no need to go into more explanations because you need to graciously put the employer out of his misery and pass on this as not being a good fit. (I suspect the employer has already started looking for another job applicant for the position unless he's just as desperate and keeps you.)

smurfette wrote:

From the employer's perspective, your gazillion, uber-picky questions are off-putting; he's very likely thinking you're high maintenance and that you can't handle ambiguity nor do you possess solid decision-making and managerial skills.  (The closing of your communication to the employer hints of desperation and comes across as superficial because you just interrogated the guy with a barrage of questions.)

This is exactly what I was thinking, re high maintenance (nice way of saying PITA lol). 

I don't know how much work experience you have in the US, but even employers in the US would be put off by your questions and references to the law. 

I was the one who said you had to do a lot researching and  soul searching to determine if you had the right temperament to work in a place like Saudi Arabia.  Based on this current post, I would say you don't (at least not now--maybe you just need to get some years under your belt).

Best of luck.

YawnDomino wrote:

I'm an American citizen living in the USA and have had several Skype interviews with the head and representative of a private company located in Riyadh. He's extending me a job offer outlining various aspects of a proposed positions I'm being considered for. However, this document clearly stated that it is not a formal contract. I agreed to the terms and began doing some more research on Saudi labor laws as they pertain to expats, as well as the visa process. I sent him a series of questions (see the quoted text below) that arose from concerns I had during the research.

The following day, his representative replied that he, the owner of the company, could not answer those questions, and that I would receive contract details  inshallah (and you and I both know what that means).

My question is this: Are these unreasonable questions to ask a Saudi employer before arriving in the KSA? Why is he unwilling to show me a written contract? That being said, how will I even obtain a work permit without a contract? Is this common business practice that I'm supposed to just trust that he will abide by the written job proposal?

I appreciate your time and consideration. Any help on the matter is greatly appreciated.

شكرا



Here's what I sent them:
"LABOR LAW QUESTIONS

For the following questions, refer here: http://www.saudiembassy.net/about/count … -1of4.aspx

Chapter 3, Article 49 of the Labor and Workmen Law states that a foreigner will not be issued a work permit until
    1. I've entered the country legally. Does this mean I will be entering KSA under a context other than a Work Permit visa? If so, how will I gain entry?
    2. I "posses the vocational skills and educational qualifications of which the Country is in need." What are we going to tell the Ministry of Labor? That my BA in Communication and English is needed to facilitate quality assurance in the company?
    3. I am under contract with and guaranteed by a Saudi employer. I assume this won't be a problem once I've reviewed and signed a contract.

I'm primarily concerned with points 1 and 2.

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Chapter 3, Article 50 states that "every employer shall vocationally prepare his Saudi workmen to replace non-Saudis... so that the Saudi workman may be able to replace the non-Saudi." What are the implications of this in terms of my job security/contract length?

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Chapter 4, Article 80 states, "Except within the limits dictated by the need to attract foreign workmen, an employer who employs foreign workmen may not pay them wages and remunerations in excess of what he pays Saudi workmen of equal competence, technical proficiency and academic qualifications." I was just wondering if my fringe benefits (housing, car, computer, etc) are included under 'remunerations' and would put me at any kind of financial risk, unless being classified as a 'head' or 'manager' satisfies the 'equal competence, technical proficiency and academic qualifications' part of this article.
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Chapter 4, Article 81 claims I may be financially liable for damage to "machinery or products which belong to...the employer, where such loss, damage or destruction was the result of the workman's fault..."

If I am being provided a company car, I assume that any damage to that would invoke this article. That being said, KSA has a notorious reputation for dangerous driving conditions and (from what I've read) a tendency of authorities to judge in favor of a Saudi over a Westerner in terms of automobile accidents. In regards to that, will automobile insurance be covered by the company? If not, how do I go about obtaining coverage for the vehicle?
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CONTRACT QUESTIONS AND CONCERNS

I kindly request that the following points be clearly addressed in the contract:

1. The terms, limitations, and benefits related to the health care coverage.
2. The length of employment in both Gregorian and Hijri calendar dates
3. The means, sum, and frequency of compensation, including salary itself and the net value of salary and remuneration (housing, car, computer, etc).
4. The exact address of the housing provided, along with a description of its dimensions and amenities.
5. Terms, if any, relating to automobile insurance.
6. Conditions and terms related to continued employment after the contract's end.
7. Who I may contact in the event of a dispute, how disputes may be resolved, and the extent of my legal rights as an foreigner working in the KSA.
8. How my Iqama and Passport will be handled.
9. An outline of duties expected of me as a "Quality Assurance Head."
10. Grounds for termination.

—————————————————

Other things I'm curious about that might not necessarily be in the contract, ie.; things I'd like to know for my own amusement.

•    What kind of cell phone, if any, will be provided? What are its capabilities? Will there be a data/minutes limit?
•    What kind of computer will the company provide?
•    What is the make and model of the company car?
•    Who will I be living with, and will I have any advance notice of future arrivals/departures from other houseguests?
•    [Name omitted] mentioned there may be trips to Dubai in the future?
•    What should I do during scheduled prayer time?
•    What is the racial make-up of the employees I will be working with?
•    What operations specifically will I be overseeing?
•    Does the company sponsor any events or social gatherings for its employees outside of the workplace (dinners, outings, etc)?
•    How large is the company in terms of total employees and locations worldwide?

——————————————————
I would like to stress again how excited and humbled I am to be presented with such an amazing opportunity. I never imagined I would possibly start my career in the Middle East, but it is a welcome surprise. I'd like to thank you [name omitted] and [name omitted] for considering me for this position and extending an offer of employment. I'm ready to complete this visa process and hop on a plane as soon as possible. "

Again, are these unreasonable things to ask my potential employer?

While others have already said the most of it, I just have a few more comments.

The questions you're asking will be put-off by each and every employer.

All you need to worry about is to have a formal contract (usually its a year contract with auto-renewal unless one or both parties decide to end it). considering the current chaos Ministry of Labor has created, no employer would go out of the way to commit something not under their ambit.

Consider, exploring Saudi Ministry of Labor Website, and you will find standardized information. Though, its just a document which will always swung in the benefit of local employer and not you.

There are certain grey areas, but everyone living here take it is a compromise for the reasons including no tax,excellent salary, benefits, allowances, vacations, hardship allowances people

Thanks for the responses. My biggest concern is why he hasn't shown me a contract yet. Maybe I'm just being impatient. It's only been a week since I signed and submitted my approval of the job offer... How long does it usually take an employer to draft up something like that? Does he have to jump through his own hoops at the Ministry of Labor before they approve something visa-worthy for a foreigner?