Teaching English

I have. I had a problem with renting, opening a bank account, transferring money, getting a bank note to pay an overseas fee without a contract and a rental contract.

Teachers at my school and the school itself acknowledged these and other issues (driver's licence)  and after admitting that they did not have a licence to hire foreigners stamped my contract at their head office. They also paid to translate needed documents to English. I was working illegally without my knowledge. My first job. Work permit docs in the drawer in case anyone asks.

As for renewing my visa every three months, my wife and my marriage exemption visa dealt with that. I can't imagine packing everything dear to me for the visa run every three months just in case I couldn't get back in. I bet it costs more than the $10 I paid.

How did you get around opening a bank account without proving you were in the country legally? You probably can't say because you would be counselling others to break the law here. There is no other way.

Just last week I had an issue leaving VN because the ticket agent at the airport wasn't familiar with the new residency permit. In other words she needed proof that I was in VN legally just to process my ticket and give me a boarding pass.

I'm legal here and it took me most of an hour to prove it to immigration and the freaking ticket agent. Last Wednesday.  Eight days ago. It turned out that that the new residency permit was sufficient. It seems that that's what it's for. Can't get that working illegally.

How did you support yourself the last eight years mr. -------. Can you answer that question? Can you prove it legally?

If they want to get you they can.

Eight years of tourist visas every three months wouldn't pass that scrutiny. 'How did you support yourself in VN?'. I've heard of this from Korea back when people were working illegally there. They get you on the way out.

Working illegally is a mug's game.

I can say if you are not qualified to teach English in vietnam then there are many students that need help in learning English but can't afford to have some one teach then.i was asked to teach children learn English and I said I an not qualified. I was never a teacher but I would help so I did then .I founded out that.now he had a foreigner teaching English. He asked the parents to pay more because he has pay more for foreigner to teach.we are hear living in vietnam let's give not take like I see so many foreigners do.the people are getting sick and tired of it.they are not stupid.we are not going to be welcomed if we keep it up.simon

Simon amos wrote:

I was never a teacher......

No.  First you must learn the rules of spelling and grammar.

The problem in Vietnam is unqualified foreign teachers and those who hire them. That means people without degrees or TEFL certs. They drive down wages causing qualified foreigners to leave the country and cheat the parents and students by doing whatever someone does in a classroom when they have no inkling of a clue as to how to teach or any knowledge whatsoever of what they are tasked to teach.

They savage the reputation of all EFL teachers worldwide and embarrass their countries, themselves, their compatriots and even their heritage.

Teach or play the fool?

Forty-five minutes of hangman, showing pictures from back home, or whatever other BS constitutes a lesson for these imbeciles amounts to nothing more than a fraud perpetuated against the students and their parents. Schools and government officials that enable this disgrace are even more culpable.

Anything for a buck or an edge eh Vietnam?

Anyone who can actually read the 'amos' post prior to mine and not recoil in horror as to what passes for an EFL teacher (the poster was offered a job) in VN deserves, nay, pleads to be shot and peed on.

The simplest, that is the kindergarten version of a definition of a sentence- A sentence begins with a capital letter and ends with a full stop. Use your pinky to  make a space between words. I can't believe I have to point this out this on an EFL board. Unwanted ads are the least of your worries.

A sentence is a complete thought.

A degree and some kind of teaching cert, are the minimal requirements to apply for a job here. There is no no magical Hogworts niche for the unqualified.

Two arguments here:

Only real teachers are of any use
Something is better than nothing.

I would question the validity of the second as I've seen the results of crappy teachers bad work.

That's just not true.

You can:

- Work
- Get a bank acount ( visa card with a  chip n'all)
- Get a visa that lasts for anywhere from 6-12 months WITHOUT A WP
(I am not talking about getting a tourist visa, if you are gonna work -  get a business visa)

All these things have questionable legality, but they are (technically) legal. As long as you are NOT working in a public school. Also, the legality issues are less relevant now because the demands for credentials have been loosened (for better or worse).
Getting a Work Permit makes life 100x easier.. But it's stupid to use that as the biggest thing to deter people from coming.

There are plenty of reasons to deter people. The fact that coming for the wrong reasons is literaly screwing poor families out of their well-earned Dong.

I have also seen quite a few shoddy teachers that did have degrees. Far from all students that get their degree are teaching aficionados. However, many people that just didn't make the right choices at the age of eighteen, might be!
I strongly suggest that attitude and a careful approach to what you are doing is a strong compromise in this situation. The way that English is taught in Vietnam is kind of idiot-proof.
- There is very little syllabus building.
- The syllabus' that are written are often nothing more than a copy of the books stated teaching-goals. 
- Activities from other sources than the book is often discouraged.
- Often the local management are completely clueless as to what quality teaching is.

All these things, and more, contribute to the second argument actually being valid. This is only as long as the "something" is replaced by "something that is careful and takes a sensible approach".


Most teachers that are educated and have a strong backing when it comes to experience, including both of my parents, will agree that it's far from as simple as:

Degree - Can teach.
No degree - Cannot teach.

However, the biggest issue in my mind is that people are neglecting the opportunity here. There are lots of uneducated teachers in Vietnam. Why not make an effort to provide training or ways into education for them. I have yet to understand why people just turn a blind eye to this opportunity to provide a better service using the people that teach her anyway.

Hi i do agree with what.you say as I an not qualified to teach English in school.it was on a volunteer basic.. my intentions was to try and sit with the students and help them speak English.you can see they can read and write English.they need sit and talk English.then the qualified teachers can do the teaching.this work would be volunteering your time free of charge.at same time they could teach me.i can only give what I can .that is talk lol

lolpol8912 wrote:

All these things have questionable legality, but they are (technically) legal. As long as you are NOT working in a public school. Also, the legality issues are less relevant now because the demands for credentials have been loosened (for better or worse).

There you go again saying that it is legal to work in centers without a WP.  Just because you got away with it does not make it legal.  How about a citation?  If not the law, at least provide us with a newspaper article or something similar.  Of course you won't because you can't.  Until you can show real evidence that it is legal to work anywhere at all without a work permit you really need to stop saying so.

THIGV wrote:

lolpol8912 wrote:

All these things have questionable legality, but they are (technically) legal. As long as you are NOT working in a public school. Also, the legality issues are less relevant now because the demands for credentials have been loosened (for better or worse).

There you go again saying that it is legal to work in centers without a WP.  Just because you got away with it does not make it legal.  How about a citation?  If not the law, at least provide us with a newspaper article or something similar.  Of course you won't because you can't.  Until you can show real evidence that it is legal to work anywhere at all without a work permit you really need to stop saying so.

Agree with Thigv. The law states that everyone needs a work permit to be legally employed, there are exceptions, but seeing as we are talking about teachers, your information is dead wrong.

Hi you can walk around and see some of the construction sites then look at the welding taken place.would it be up to western standards.would those welder hold all the tickets required to be a welder.i say no but to do certain jobs they can do with the experience they have.now if they were working on welding main bean for a bridge.then they would require different welding machine and different qualifitions.so it would be same for teachers as with construction site can't afford pay wages of qualified welder do  window frames.same students need different levels for learning English.maybe to get job in restaurant hotel .not all students will end up going for masters.plus that's very expensive for the government and the individual students.then if we are here in vietnam would it ask to much to recieve same wages as the local teachers.i do believe most of use see what happened in the west.we priced ourselves out of the jobs.there are many people that could teach here in vietnam and live good life with same wages as locals.then all teachers can be on same level.do you agree.

Simon amos wrote:

Hi you can walk around and see some of the construction sites then look at the welding taken place.would it be up to western standards.would those welder hold all the tickets required to be a welder.i say no but to do certain jobs they can do with the experience they have.now if they were working on welding main bean for a bridge.then they would require different welding machine and different qualifitions.so it would be same for teachers as with construction site can't afford pay wages of qualified welder do  window frames.same students need different levels for learning English.maybe to get job in restaurant hotel .not all students will end up going for masters.plus that's very expensive for the government and the individual students.then if we are here in vietnam would it ask to much to recieve same wages as the local teachers.i do believe most of use see what happened in the west.we priced ourselves out of the jobs.there are many people that could teach here in vietnam and live good life with same wages as locals.then all teachers can be on same level.do you agree.

Most local teachers at centres earn between 80-100k an hour, I doubt many expats could survive on that. It's also a totally different situation between locals and expats, for a start, many VN teachers still live in the family home, a cost saving straight away.

Banking in Vietnam

"In order to open a bank account in Vietnam, you will need your passport, your work contract in Vietnam and a minimum deposit. The amount of the deposit will vary depending on which bank you choose. Some banks will ask you for a letter from your landlord to specify that you are living in Vietnam, however, most will just ask you for an address to contact you, and you may provide your work address."

Banking in Vietnam

"To open a bank account in Vietnam expats will need to have a passport and a copy of their employment contract, as well as an initial deposit – the exact amount varies according to which bank the account will be with. Some banks also require a letter from a foreigner's landlord stating that the person is legally renting a property in Vietnam. However, most banks usually just want a valid address where the expat can be contacted, and a work address."

Opening a bank account in Vietnam

"Take an appointment by phone or simply visit one of the branches of the bank you choose. You will have to produce your identification documents such as your passport and a valid visa. If you have been in the country for more than six weeks, you will need to provide your resident card. The bank may ask you to provide proof of address. Procedures should only last a few minutes.

Note that the procedures are generally in Vietnamese and English."

Maybe people who opened bank accounts here without work contracts and or leases can tell us how they did it instead of just saying that any old tourist in VN can open a bank account. What bank?

I walked into the bank, gave them my passport and opened an account, two banks done the same way. Maybe now its different my accounts were opened years ago.

cash deposits without a work permit or contract

"My bank won't let me make cash deposits without a work permit or contract.  Are there any that do?

Most banks will question cash deposits and will demand proof of origin such as a salary slip or some form of description to say how the cash was made.  Sacombank, however, will allow you to deposit cash without asking questions. But!!! Always make sure.  Rules change like the wind in Vietnam and it can also equally come down to the whim of the individual serving you. If you have any issues depositing cash, get a Vietnamese friend to do it for you. This embargo only applies to foreigners."

"I was told you needed to show your Vietnamese address as well as your passport when you apply to open a bank account, is this right?

Some banks don't require this but others do and sometimes there's no rhyme or reason and they ask for it anyway.  Take documentation of a permanent address in Vietnam with you, like a house rental contract or something from your homestay, if possible."

Application criteria & Tools

"Documents required for application:
    Personal account opening form
    Duplicate copy of original ID card (for local Vietnamese) or Passport (for foreigners)
    Duplicate copy of valid entrance visa to Viet Nam (for foreigners)
    Duplicate copy of labour contract (for foreigners, if any)
    Address proof documents"

Opening a Bank Account in Vietnam      Published on July 15, 2015

"Opening a basic account at any bank in Vietnam would require you to produce a proof of identity, usually a copy of your passport, as well as proof of employment, which could be your work permit or a letter from your company (your boss could help you with this). The best thing to do would be to go to whichever bank you wish to open an account with first and ask exactly what documentation you require. This might save you some time."

Here's a thread from 2011.Having a bank account on a tourist visa

lolpol8912 wrote:

I have also seen quite a few shoddy teachers that did have degrees. Far from all students that get their degree are teaching aficionados. However, many people that just didn't make the right choices at the age of eighteen, might be!
I strongly suggest that attitude and a careful approach to what you are doing is a strong compromise in this situation. The way that English is taught in Vietnam is kind of idiot-proof.
- There is very little syllabus building.
- The syllabus' that are written are often nothing more than a copy of the books stated teaching-goals. 
- Activities from other sources than the book is often discouraged.
- Often the local management are completely clueless as to what quality teaching is.

All these things, and more, contribute to the second argument actually being valid. This is only as long as the "something" is replaced by "something that is careful and takes a sensible approach".


Most teachers that are educated and have a strong backing when it comes to experience, including both of my parents, will agree that it's far from as simple as:

Degree - Can teach.
No degree - Cannot teach.

However, the biggest issue in my mind is that people are neglecting the opportunity here. There are lots of uneducated teachers in Vietnam. Why not make an effort to provide training or ways into education for them. I have yet to understand why people just turn a blind eye to this opportunity to provide a better service using the people that teach her anyway.

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I'm not sure what your point is here other than once again suggesting that there is some magical Hogwort's door for working illegally in Vietnam. There is not.

There is very little syllabus building? What does that even mean? A syllabus is just an outline or overview of the topics to be taught over the course. Yes, copying it from the book being used is commonplace. It is not a teacher's handbook or a step by step algorithm for teaching a lesson.

Any experienced, knowledgeable teacher could produce a syllabus for a beginner's course for example. Probably off the top of their head.

The local management are clueless? Who are these people? The qualified, educated, licensed co-teacher of your class? The management that has to convince the customer to part with their money? The students who spend all day under the watch of competent, licensed teachers? Vietnamese people aren't stupid.

All these things and more contribute to the validity of the first argument.

The book is a tool, It is not the teacher.

There is no student's book, syllabus or curriculum that can help you if you don't how or what to teach because the student's book, syllabus, and curriculum all assume that you do know how and what to teach. Is that too subtle?

Anyone working here who wants to upgrade their skill or knowledge can do so easily via the net, relationships with other teachers (local or foreign) or classes (online or on site).

Oh Fred, be serious. Now you are going to try and police a lawless society. Are you looking for your own coffee money fund. This takes the cake on this forum for someone to post such a statement.

Fred wrote:

Two arguments here:

Only real teachers are of any use
Something is better than nothing.

I would question the validity of the second as I've seen the results of crappy teachers bad work.

Apart from this thread being very general to many countries, just happening to be about Vietnam on this occasion, what's so bad about a brief summery of the two sides and a simple comment?

No one is policing the topic, simply adding a comment.

Hello everyone,

Please note that several inappropriate posts have been removed from this thread. Can we please focus on the topic here. 

Thanks

Christopher
Expat.com

Fred wrote:

Fred wrote:

Two arguments here:

Only real teachers are of any use
Something is better than nothing.

I would question the validity of the second as I've seen the results of crappy teachers bad work.

Apart from this thread being very general to many countries, just happening to be about Vietnam on this occasion, what's so bad about a brief summery of the two sides and a simple comment?

No one is policing the topic, simply adding a comment.

I like your summary 4 years of comments. 
I would question the validity of both: there are some "bad" "real" teachers out there and sometimes anything is worse than nothing.

If anything, what this thread shows is the range of reality from opening a bank account to teaching English as a Second Language.

Wxx3 wrote:

I like your summary 4 years of comments. 
I would question the validity of both: there are some "bad" "real" teachers out there and sometimes anything is worse than nothing.

If anything, what this thread shows is the range of reality from opening a bank account to teaching English as a Second Language.

I've been doing a few bits and bobs for a local school or few and there's no question you're right about some qualified teachers.
A surprising number have little clue and not a lot of interest in much (especially teaching). They plod through their day with thoughts of a pay packet at the end of the month but bugger all interest in the kids and their education.
I've met a bunch of native speakers who were unsuitable to be anywhere near a classroom but also a couple of unqualified lads that were frankly great with the kids, both in attitude to the job in hand and their rather creative and interesting way of going about things.

On balance, qualified is best but qualifications aren't a guarantee of being any use in a classroom.

I do not pretend to be a teacher but I muddle through conversations and how to play with the spoken  word when asked to do so. I must be some good at it because I keep getting invited back to schools and they pass me on to new places.
It's more inspirational speaking than teaching .. and it's fun ... and it pays well ... and I get to travel around .. and no lesson plans or paperwork .. and did I mention it pays well?

However, that isn't teaching and I don't wish to pretend it's anything other than glorified playing around but with Powerpoints and a stand up routine.
My job is to encourage rather than teach and I break concrete blocks to gain a bit of attention if the kids' minds wander. (Breaking bricks and blocks with your hands is not recommended unless you have at least 10 years experience in a martial art such as Tae Kwon do - I have a lot more so I'm fine)
"15", say I with a sweeping horizontal hand movement to show the shape of the word.
"50", now with a rapid vertical drop of my hand to demonstrate the abrupt sound but with concrete blocks in the way .. but they soon smash and that makes the kids go "WOW" so that's attention kept for a while.
Told you it was a stand up act.

I did years as a DJ, stage manager, MC and other related odds and sods, and that experience serves me well for what I do now.
To be honest, all you need for my work is a bit of mild crazy and a really good attitude mixed with a boat load of imagination because no qualification in this world can teach what you need to do a stand up act.

Oh, and masses of reading up on a whole pile of subjects. Kids are fiendishly clever so you need to be expert on everything you're ever likely to be asked and most other stuff as well.
If they ask about the latest pop groups I simply explain I'm old, fat, ugly and uncool then ask how I'm supposed to know about MC rapper whatshisface?

One last thing, you need to know most of the contents of the Oxford English so no clever sod can use a word you don't know and flummox you to the point where you consider self defenestration.
I'm flabbergasted by the number of kids with dictionaries in their pockets and evil intent to discombobulate you with a rare word.

With a business visa, my employer could:
- Employ me and pay me a taxable income
- Register the employment with the local authorities
- Get me a bank account, with Sacombank. (Visa debit card with no limitations)
- Register me as a tenant within my employers home
- Register me as a tenant in a separate rental home
- I also requested paperwork from government officials using that same registration and proof of employment

So, I would say there are many stages here where an illegal employment would have hindered any of these steps. Maybe I am wrong, I am definitely not a lawyer. However, my employer was employed in an international company doing precisely, visa applications for foreign workers. As an extra point, he did it together with the person that replaced him in that job, hence someone who does that same job now. He also ensured me there was no usage of bribes. I trust his word, you have no logical reason to distrust him. He certainly is a more credible source of information than a bunch of expats(no offence).

The basic point of my argument is that:
- It is "legal" to the point that it is good enough for local authorities.
- It is "legal" to the point that you have a minuscule risk of any actual legal repercussions
- It is "legal" to the point that you CAN do all the things that you claimed were NOT possible

You guys are focusing way too much on the definition of that word and less on the actual practicality of my initial advice. This forum is intended to help expats with their issues and questions.
I gave practical advice. Practical advice that might help an expat actually get a bank account etc. Your part in the debate has been to prove me wrong, which is pretty irrelevant stance to be honest. Because my advice is sound and credible. If you want to debate on the definition of "legal", go ahead. Just do it with someone else on a different forum where people aren't actually looking for good solid advice.

The argument about how useful uneducated teachers are is an entirely different point however. On the basis of that, maybe some people should be discouraged. But I don't see any point, whatsoever, why you would want to make it seem harder to come here than it actually is if that might actually provide a quality teacher at some point.

I will address the other point of the argument in a different post. This one is waaay tooo looong.

Which ones? I haven't kept track?

Tradespeople not being competent at their trade is not news. I could tell you about the licensed plumber who could only unplug toilets, the guy who f'd off the job because he couldn't install a garburator so his apprentice finished the job. The roofer, the electrician, the mechanic, the cabinet maker.

The question of what you need to teach legally here is easy to answer and has been answered many times. The benefits of teaching legally have also been addressed.

This thread has evolved into what it takes to teach illegally here.

Vietnam does not enforce their own regulations about work permits.

Companies exploit that by hiring tourists passing through on their grand tour of SE Asia.

Some large chains have been told to stop that but the rule is to make sure that all their foreign staff has a TEFL cert. not a work permit. AMA and ILA.

What does it take to teach EFL?

The children want to have fun, the parents want their children to learn and the school wants to retain students and grow.

What does it take to make a living at teaching EFL?

A degree and a TEFL cert. whether the school gets you a work permit or not.

What does it take to have peace of mind making a living at teaching EFL?

A degree, preferably a TEFL and a job with benefits like paid housing, healthcare, taxes, all permits and flights.

What skills do you need to teach EFL legally or not?

Students like you and want you to teach them, knowledge about the subject matter because students (or their parents) do expect to actually learn something for god's sake. The ability to survive and thrive in a foreign culture which speaks a different language than you. Social justice is different, the food, relationships, medical care, dental care, rules of the road, work culture, everything!

And always remember that if they do want to get you, they'll get you on the way out.

How do you explain all those tourist visas, how did you support yourself, how do you explain bank deposits, paying rent?

Not something I would do but hey!, knock yourself out. A couple people on this board say it's easy and everything is good.

Paradise.

Come on down and help me normalize my life as an illegal immigrant committing fraud by posing as an EFL teacher (contrary to the VN legal definition).

Not to mention the students and parents who spend a sizeable portion of their meagre (median $200USD a month) wages on their hopes of dreams of a better life for themselves or their children.

Something to be proud of for sure. Good job guys. Nice legacy.

Tell us more about how easy it is to steal money from the unsuspecting.

I didn't say anything about a Hogwarts door. It's called a business visa. It helped me do everything that the original poster (that my argument was a response to) said was impossible. So your patronizing reference is pretty pointless as I am living proof that this form of visa, in this situation that I mentioned, helped me achieve everything that a work permit is being claimed to be the only route to. 
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When I said curriculum building, I was referring to this definition:
"any programme or plan of activities"

When I mentioned curriculum building I was referring to the content OF a curriculum. I am talking about activities that have a connection within a frame that is realistic and relevant. I am saying that many schools do not require you to have any thoughtful activities that have some frame to follow that can provide a meaningful education. They just require you to follow a book. Many of them actually blatantly tell you to do this. This is not a good thing, but when giving practical advise to someone who wants to work her it is relevant.
A syllabus is just an outline. Yeah, kind of. But, what is your point? An outline or a guide and a direction for a course outside of a book (one that is relevant to students that the book's authors have never met or assessed) is a fundamentally important thing. I am pretty sure that building a meaningful syllabus with activities and relevant goals and forms of assessment is a major part of being a teacher. And yes, it is easy for an experienced teacher. It is also necessary.
However, much of the teaching that is on offer to foreigners does not require these skills, that are benefited hugely by experience and/or formal education. There is a difference between different teaching jobs. Teaching is not just teaching. Different types of teaching jobs, demand different types of teachers. Sadly, in Vietnam they just want people with mastery of the English sound system and that can follow a format that is made idiot-proof (Family & Friends).
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Maybe "The qualified, educated, licensed co-teacher of your class?" is something that is true of the staff at VUS, ILA or one of the major places. But in rural areas(my original argument was about rural teaching), the staff designing courses are not clued in on pedagogy at all in many of the cases I have experienced.
And on the point of having to persuade people to give them money. Many of the parents have little to no clue if their student is progressing. Also, many of them are just happy to see that one of their teachers is white. Not a good thing. But it is the truth.
At the end of the day, it's not hugely shocking. Look at history. There is a huge demand for the teaching of English and there are insufficient foreign teachers to provide the service. This is, after all, a developing country. Countries like Finland, Sweden and many other countries with groundbreaking education systems have had plenty of time to develop. Vietnam hasn't and their education system has all the faults that accompany that fact.
My initial comment in this area was possibly too harsh. It was also not intended to demean any of the staff. I was just pointing out a societal issue that seems to prevail in rural areas (I was only ever referring to rural areas). I didn't mean it to sound like I was talking about a majority even, just a large amount.
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I don't know why you are patronising me. At least attempting to. You are assuming things about me that are impossible to deduce from my comments.
I am not making outlandish claims. Just making observations that I am FAR FROM the first person to make. The only one that was possibly a bit inflammatory was the one regarding the "useless staff", which I just admitted was a poor wording and I apologized for that. But, even that gave no insight into my knowledge of pedagogy.
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I don't disagree with most of what you just said. But, I never endorsed mindless and useless teaching. I never endorsed a tourist visa.

But yeah. You are right. I think that every ESL teacher that doesn't have correct qualifications should be very conscious of all the things that you just mentioned. That's why I plan EVERY single lesson and make sure I use every method possible to make sure I am not wasting anyone's money or time.

I do think there is a difference between someone who consciously comes here and someone who just takes a bit of easy cash. I am not one of the latter.

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However, I think that the comment at the end of your post is a bit unnecessary. Far from all teachers are abusing the situation. Many teachers make possible change and this progression is not unique to Vietnam. It is common in many developing country.

Virtually every post you've made tells us that you do not have sufficient command of the English language to teach it.

When all's said and done you are simply trying to normalize committing fraud as an illegal immigrant by posing as an EFL instructor.

Classically one teaches the degree below that which one has achieved. That's the basis for requiring a bachelor's degree to teach EFL. Requiring a TEFL is VN's way of dealing with the backpacker problem.

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First of all, I teach teenagers how to say things like: "I like vegetables". I am not teaching at a university level. I teach students that are on a beginner to lower-intermediate level. I speak and write fluently. So, I would say that I am teaching well below the level that I belong to.
Second, my English is not perfect. I speak fluent Swedish and have been using that language more. This has been the case, in both written and spoken form, for most of the last fifteen years of my life. But it is far from the level you describe me as.
This due to the fact that I am very aware of the, prior-mentioned, flaw. I NEVER teach anything I have not checked. If I have reason to believe my second language is causing me to use incorrect English, I check with colleagues. I also check with my parents and the internet.
Finally. My parents are both teachers. One of them is a deputy-headmaster in a secondary school in the UK. One is a teacher of English in one of the worlds most respected education systems, Sweden. Both of them have had around 15-20 years experience and I have lived with one of them at any point of my life, until recently. I am not foolishly doing something I am not qualified for. I am cautiously and carefully doing something that I am not qualified for with continuous input from people that have more experience and knowledge than me.

What I am saying is that I make sure I cover my bases. I didn't choose to teach, I was encouraged by both my parents. I used to have the same opinion that you have now. But I have grown up and taken a more pragmatic view of the situation.
I am not normalizing anything. It is already normal. It is true, that uneducated teachers do cause some damage to Vietnamese society. But, there is a flip-side. Vietnamese high school teachers that cannot even answer a basic question also cause problems. Many teachers that come here, without education, provide quality education and give Vietnamese students exposure to the English language. Exposure they will NEVER get from their Vietnamese teachers that cannot speak English. They will learn grammar, but what use is grammar if you don't know how to speak and have zero confidence. Due to the fact that your teachers don't practice speaking with you.

You are also ignoring the painful reality of the western world.
A large amount of developed countries have teacher-shortages. England has. Where are all these educated teachers for Vietnam going to come from?

This argument has become pointless for my part. You clearly think you are the be–all and end–all of education. I do my job professionally and well. I give my students a quality education despite my lack of education at a university. If you think you can judge that from a few forum-posts, you obviously have limited knowledge of how to assess ability.
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Also, one fact you ignore. I would guess that more than half of the "educated" western teachers that are here have completely unrelated degrees. So, this whole argument is farcical anyway.
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With all this said: I would never take a job in a city-centre language school. Because there are many teachers that could do their job better. I am only prepared to teach, without a degree, in rural centres where I can offer something the regular staff cannot.

Presenting yourself as having credentials you don't have is fraud. Bizarre stories about the countryside being deprived of English teachers or whatever it is you're saying don't change that.

Not only do you not have the minimum credentials to teach in VN, you don't even speak English a s a first language. I don't know what to say to you.

You'd just ignore me and whinge on about this fantasy land of needy English deprived simpletons that you are heroically serving or is that saving?

Good luck with that.

When all that has been said.That most teachers .That come here to teach English are retired .Receiving pensions that people in this country would give there right arm for.Then they also want a least $20hr.When teachers here are getting $4hr
This don't seen right in my eyes.I an not the only one .That thinks that way many locals think same.Then there is value of o



ur dollar.That in it self should tell us some thing.I do believe that it's time to look at the meaning of the word greed.There comes a time to sit and give it some thought.This is a proud country and we could lose there respect.You only have look at there pass history French American and Chinese.There were some words used early in these exchange of options.I an not sure who or why they used then this is what they said.you are a disagree to your country to your culture and you should be shot and peeled on.
So maybe it's time throw away that silver spoon.This country is trying put things together after those terrible years of war.why don't we try be part of the solution.not just take and stop complaining.Look around and see what you have compared to some other people here.
I seen this printed on a wall.I cried the blues cause I had no shoes until I meet a man up on the street that had no feet.

At the end of the day, I am providing a service that rural Vietnamese teachers CANNOT provide. It is also a service that educated westerners are not willing to do, because they can teach in the centre of Saigon. If you want to call that fraudulent, go ahead. 

Where did you get the idea that I was not a native-speaker? I was born in England. I grew up around two parents that are both educated English teachers. One of them, an award-winning poet.  I moved to Sweden when I was eleven. I speak and write in both languages fluently. I don't know where you got the idea that I was not a native-speaker.

To be honest, I don't really get what your problem is. I have been polite and measured in my responses. Responses that have often been personal. The only thing you can possibly have against me, is that I don't have a degree. If that bugs you so much, chill out. You are assuming that I am ruining the education of the Vietnamese people I teach. You are doing this with little to no evidence to that fact.
For some reason, you think my English is poor. It's not. It's not perfect. I have trouble with semi-colons and using too many commas. I also have trouble spelling words with double "ll"s. Apart from that, I would suggest that my English is more than sufficient.

Regarding what it takes to be an English teacher in Vietnam, I have said only a few things. That one should be pragmatic. Realize that, for teaching this level of English, you do not need to be a master of English. You just need to be able to teach simple basic grammatical forms and basic English phonics. I am more than able to do these things, and more and am actively taking steps to ensure that I can do more in the future.

Having not gone to university, should not be an eliminator. It is however a major setback. It means I have to fight extra hard in every aspect. This is fine, that's the price I pay. I have to work harder and do more, every single day. I am fine with that. However, I am not fine with some dude that knows nothing about me saying that I am unable to do what I am doing.

If you wanna respond, go ahead. But I doubt there is anything more to be said. I have no interest. This debate is cutting into my linguistics homework time. Bye.

@lolopl1812
   Don't let these guys get to you. Your will do just fine and there will be many here who will appreciate you help in teaching them English. I have known many educated English teachers here that wish the parents really cared that their children learn English. They will pay to have their children taught but can not make the behave or do what us asked in class. I have yet to meet one that did not say that the children were an unruly mess. Come, enjoy yourself and you students will love you.

Oddly enough, the students i teach in rural Tay Ninh are the ones that are best behaved. That is mostly due to owners of the centre that thoroughly care about their students. They may have misguided approaches to education, in my eyes, but they do care. Which means that the students I teach there are actually really strong students.