Work Permit - Question about degrees

contact this person.......  Vui 0904701899 she maybe able to help you

Bonesy,

I don't see anything that can replace your college education.  How are you going to represent yourself with a M.A. or Ph.D, without a B.A.? 

There is no shortcut, dude.  Don't let these want-to-be institutions tell you otherwise...

Best,
Howie

Howie, I am not looking for 'short cuts'. I am looking for the best path for me.

This is a reputable University who have reviewed my situation and suggested what move would be best. They could of suggested I complete a BA, but they didn't.

I am not asking if I can represent myself, I'm asking for facts.

Can I obtain a work permit with a Postgrad qualification without the B.A?

If anyone knows or can direct me to somewhere where I can find out I would really appreciate it.

Bonesy,

For a Vietnamese company to hire a foreigner, except for an English teacher or a chef, s/he would have to be in a managerial position.  It is that way all over the world, except in those nations where menial labor is needed.  And, typically, a college degree (BA or BS) does more than satisfies that requirement.  Post-graduate?  The job must really requires it, because the pay will not come cheap.  We are talking about experts and executive/administrative folks here.

When you get to that level, they all will have their BAs or BSes.  If you get a MA, MBA or Ph.D, without a BA or BS, ALL employers will question the legitimacy of your degree.  Accredited post-graduate institutions will ALWAYS require you to graduate.  They call it post-graduate for a reason.

Now, a Vietnamese work permit has nothing to do with educational levels.  As long as a company here is willing to hire you and sponsor you for what you have, you will get your permit.  As a matter of fact, there are quite a few English teachers and chefs here, who have no college education.  But, they fall into the specialty categories.

As long as you can find work in your chosen field, you are good to go.  But, if you have to get a degree to get at it, then I suggest you start with a BA or BS.  Post-graduate education costs a lot more and requires much more than under-graduate.

Best,
Howie

Wild_1 wrote:

When you get to that level, they all will have their BAs or BSes.  If you get a MA, MBA or Ph.D, without a BA or BS, ALL employers will question the legitimacy of your degree.  Accredited post-graduate institutions will ALWAYS require you to graduate.  They call it post-graduate for a reason.

I'm sorry if I'm being thick here but I don't get your point. It is a legitimate University and a legitimate course. There is nothing wrong or illegal about this. If they question the legitimacy of it, they would merely have to do a bit of ground work and find out.

Wild_1 wrote:

Now, a Vietnamese work permit has nothing to do with educational levels.  As long as a company here is willing to hire you and sponsor you for what you have, you will get your permit. 

As a matter of fact, there are quite a few English teachers and chefs here, who have no college education.  But, they fall into the specialty categories.

So it's a case of the school not willing to sponsor me? As far as I was aware, regardless if you're sponsored or not no degree = no permit. Am I wrong?

With regards to finances, this course they have offered would be AUD8000 all together. From my limited knowledge on finances that is very reasonable.

I appreciate you giving your input, please don't feel I am disagreeing with you, I just want to take the path which is best for me and my girlfriends future.

Bonesy wrote:

There is nothing wrong or illegal about this. If they question the legitimacy of it, they would merely have to do a bit of ground work and find out.

Man, that is not how you would want to address your prospective employer.  But generally, those guys will know, as soon as you present them your degree.

I am not saying that there is something illegal about the institution that you are looking at enrolling.  There are hundreds of those where I come from.  What I am saying is that a Ph.D. from Backwood U. will not mean much, when compared to a BA or BS from, say Harvard or Oxford.  All you have to do is look at the admission standard...

regardless if you're sponsored or not no degree = no permit. Am I wrong?

In recent days, I have heard that English schools in Vietnam are starting to demand college degrees or higher from their teachers.  Perhaps, that is why your school is not willing to sponsor you.  However, when it comes to work permit, that has nothing to do with it.  As long as a Vietnamese employer is willing to sponsor you, you will get your permit:

No degree   =   Maybe work permit.
No sponsor  =   No work permit.

Wild, there are some University that will acknowledge your life experience and count that towards a degree. Now these are the ones that are often not recognised as "real" degrees. A quick google search of the Uni name usually reveals this fact.

That said there are also some that offer courses (PG etc.) to those with significant experience and industry certifications that are recognised by everyone. The tough part with these is actually getting accepted on the course. And while they may not hold the prestige of the likes of Harvard or Cambridge, they are still from reputable Universities.

For example I work in IT, I don't have a degree, but hold certifications from industry, that are recognised as BA level by educational insitutues in the US, UK and Australia. Some of these will offer me a PG certificate course and some credits towards the BA, all depends on the University and the courses they run.

regarding here in Vietnam and like you say all depends on the employer and if the will sponsor you with a PG but without a BA to underline it.

Laidbackfreak,

IT and Aviation are two other good examples of specialty programs, where a certificate is more than adequate to gain employment. 

But Bonesy is talking about getting a post-graduate degree, without an undergraduate study.  Now, that is something that I think is a little against the grain.  Like you said, if an institution is willing to grant post-graduate course credits for work experiences, why doesn't it apply to the undergraduate degree first?  After all, undergrad studies are cheaper and easier than grad, is it not?

Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking any higher learning institution.  To me, any education is better than no education.  It is the shady practices of the few non-accredited institutions, which seek to exploit students' academic or economic weaknesses that concerns me.

Best,
Howie

Hey Wild_1,

You said, 'As long as a Vietnamese employer is willing to sponsor you, you will get your permit'. So does this mean that even without a degree it is still possible for any Vietnamese employer to hire you to do any job so you can get a permit? or would this only apply to jobs being a manager or a specialty? Do you know any other jobs that it can work with besides managers, teachers, chefs?

Sorry to interrupt your thread Bonesy, goodluck to you too.

thaoh wrote:

Hey Wild_1,

You said, 'As long as a Vietnamese employer is willing to sponsor you, you will get your permit'. So does this mean that even without a degree it is still possible for any Vietnamese employer to hire you to do any job so you can get a permit? or would this only apply to jobs being a manager or a specialty? Do you know any other jobs that it can work with besides managers, teachers, chefs?

Sorry to interrupt your thread Bonesy, goodluck to you too.

I think what wild_1 was trying to say is that a degree is not a requirement to obtain a work permit in Vietnam. Of course if you are going to apply to be a doctor or some other profeesional position then of course having the proper degrees would be required.

Wild_1 was also trying to point out to Bonesy that obtaining a post graduate degree without an underlining bachelors degree would automatically raise some red flags. Having a Masters or Phd. without a bachelors degree in todays age is virtually unheard of. I only know of one accredited University that will award a Masters without a Bachelors and that is a University in Scotland I believe. Not even sure if they still do it any longer.

Well I can update you all on my situation today.

My boss managed to find out for me and said yes, I can legally gain a work permit with a PG and business experience alone.

Now I have two options.

Option 1. Study a BA at a Vietnamese University (considering a Vietnamese language and culture course).

Option 2. Study a PG as a distance student (Shorter course but more expensive).

If anyone is studying or has studied at a Vietnamese University I would love to hear your thoughts!

Bonesy,

If I remember correctly, college was never for everybody.  There was a certain qualifying test score that we had to achieve (ACT or SAT), then there was the minimum high school Grade Point Averages that we had to attain and, on top of all that, there were all sorts of extra curricular activities that we had to participate and excel in, before gaining admission.  Of course, we each had to pay handsomely as well...

Anyhow, when it is all said and done, it will be you who will have to shell out the bucks, it will be you who will have to sit through it all, and it will most definitely be you who will have to live with all that follow.  I and a few other have already stated what we know.  It is all up to you now.  The choice, or the lack thereof, is entirely up to you.

Just remember, we are each judged by the choices that we make, and the acquaintances that we keep...

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=161166

Best,
Howie

P.S.  You don't happen to know a fella by the name of Jezer, do you?  Quite an inspiring character, for all the wrong reasons...

Thao,

I had a 3-year work permit issued to me before; and no one at immigration said anything about degree to me.  Of course, I paid my dues in school.

Now, in regard to labor, Vietnam is looking to export labor.  As far as I know, it is not too keen on importing, much like most nations around the world.  So, if a Vietnamese firm hires me as a nanny and pays me 3 million Dongs/month, I highly doubt that Vietnamese Immigration will process our application for a work permit.   

In short, the position and the pay have to jibe with existing labor conditions.  Governments are not too fond of their domestic companies selling jobs oversea...  Not here, nor anywhere else in the world.

I hope that helps.

Regards,
Howie

Trust me Howie I'm not doing this because I want to..

I've been working for a well known English language centre for the past year and will lose my job in a few months because the government are cracking down on work permits. My boss doesn't want to lose me, but this is not his decision.

I don't want to take a step back and start teaching at smaller schools with less resources, organisational skills and pay hence my decision to look at studying here.

I want to look at a career here, as I've said on numerous occasions I'm here for the long term. As much as I enjoy it maybe the teaching route isn't the answer for me.

If anyone has any recommendations for some type of career with my background please let me know..

Thanks

I read this thread with interest and having taught at an Australian university fr many years feel the need to weigh in. Online courses the world over are looked at a little differently and do not carry the same weight as courses taken on campus.  Many universities offer post grad courses both on campus and online to those that have not taken an undergrad but they do not replace the undergrad courses and even in Vietnam they know this.

Wild_1 offers you good advice and information.  Work experience can be counted towards a degree, but it generally takes years of work experience to gain that credit. For example, the Police in Australia have decided that its a good idea for their force to have degrees and 10 years as a police person will gain you credit for three units.  You need 21 to complete a BA!

Given your youth (and I have a daughter older than you. lol) I would suggest that your work experience would not count for too many credits.  Take a degree course, and do it in Vietnam if this is where you want to stay, but remember too that a degree obtained here will not be considered in the same light as a degree obtained in the western world.  Masters Degrees from Korea universities, for example, are counted towards a BA at a western university but not recognized even as a BA let alone as a Masters.  For some students a Masters from Korea will get them into a BA degree with a coupe of credits

Bonesy,

It is a good thing that you are looking ahead.  But, let me tell you something about the Vietnamese crackdowns.  Dude, they have crackdowns for virtually everything, except stuffs that need to be cracked down.  In light of that, IF you and your boss are good enough, you guys will get by...  Millions have and millions are still skirting the crackdowns here.

I am not discouraging you from your educational goal.  Like I had mentioned earlier, to me, any education is better than no education.  But, just like everything else in this world, it is always best that you start at the basics.  Once you are able to walk, running and jumping, man--even kicking, will be such a breeze.

Personally, I didn't start college until I was 23, and had circled the globe 3 times over.  But, the 3 1/2 years that I spent in college and the 1 year in law school were the better years of my life.  They were not the most fun years; but they definitely were the most informative years.  Not only that I learned so much about everything around me, but I also learned a ton about myself.

Don't short-change yourself.  I hope you dig what I am talking about.

Best,
Howie

Parmyd and DeeandFleur,

Thanks for chiming in.  A lot of times I find myself at a lost of words, when it comes to the thought processes of the younger people. 

DeeandFleur wrote:

You need 21 to complete a BA!

Really?  What system do you guys go under?  In the US, especially in California, we go by the quarter system; and typically, it would require somewhere between 180-230 units to complete a BA or BS.  A vast difference?

Thanx Wild_1 and Parmyd for your explanation and input.

Bonesy, if you plan to stay in Vietnam long-term why don't you just consider marrying your girlfriend?

Doesn't marriage to a local mean you get permanent residency and can work legally?
What about starting your own business? or partnering with someone? Would that work too? Anyone have any more knowledge on these matters?

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thaoh wrote:

Thanx Wild_1 and Parmyd for your explanation and input.

Bonesy, if you plan to stay in Vietnam long-term why don't you just consider marrying your girlfriend?

Doesn't marriage to a local mean you get permanent residency and can work legally?
What about starting your own business? or partnering with someone? Would that work too? Anyone have any more knowledge on these matters?

Hi!

I have explored that option and apparently marriage means nothing. (Someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong!)

I have considered business but I have no real experience. There are definitely things I could bring to the table but would be lacking in knowledge/know how in some areas.

DeeandFleur wrote:

Given your youth (and I have a daughter older than you. lol) I would suggest that your work experience would not count for too many credits.  Take a degree course, and do it in Vietnam if this is where you want to stay, but remember too that a degree obtained here will not be considered in the same light as a degree obtained in the western world.  Masters Degrees from Korea universities, for example, are counted towards a BA at a western university but not recognized even as a BA let alone as a Masters.  For some students a Masters from Korea will get them into a BA degree with a coupe of credits

Hi Deeandfleur,

Completely understand your presumption, but I do hold pretty valuable experience for my young age (I hope..)

I was a sales and service trainer and Commercial Aviation Executive for just shy of 4 years. Experience I doubt many have had who are my age.

I know I have qualities to bring to the table, I just want someone to appreciate my qualities over my papers.

Wild_1 wrote:

Bonesy,

Personally, I didn't start college until I was 23 and had circled the globe 3 times over.  But, the 3 1/2 years that I spent in college and the 1 year in law school were the better years of my life.  They were definitely the most informative years.  Not only that I learned so much about everything around me, but I also learned a ton about myself.

Wild_1,

You got me beat. My tenure at law school only lasted a month. Ever think about going back?

Parmyd,

I was thinking about getting a law degree here, sometimes back.  But, they are more selective than I thought...  So, that was that.  As for the one back in California, no, I just have too much on my plate now, as it is.

I would really like to, someday though...  Hate leaving things unfinished!

What about you, why so brief?  Don't tell me you were doing criminal laws, and the investigavive processes freaked you out?

Bonesy, I'd not go for a BA in Vietnam. Since you mentioned "Vietnamese culture and language," I'm assuming you don't have any intention of going into the academia or any highly specialized field like architecture or engineering. In that case, you'd be better off spending your resources to find more work and build your network, instead of of getting a "generic" degree, for lack of a better work. Here (and elsewhere) it's about experience and connection. A BA degree isn't very indicative of what you can bring to the table; and employers here know that too well. Just ask some of the bosses you know, Vietnamese and foreigner. Overseas, I've heard some employers say that they see the degree as an indicator of the applicant's work ethic: to an extent, you need to be goal-oriented enough to hand in all those assignments on time to finish in 4 years. But again, this is something that could be proved through your work experience. And pretty sure it doesn't apply much here

I'd even go so far as to contradict what others have said ITT, even for managerial positions, many employers won't question the legitimacy of your degrees. Can't tell you how many diploma mills I've seen listed in official bios of executives. Most recent is the country CEO of one of the biggest MNCs in Vietnam. To their credit, they all have legit BAs.

Agree with Wild_1 that college years is a formative time of exploration and growth for many, including myself. In the end, only you know whether you need to be on a campus for your personal and professional development. 

And to clear up some confusion, the course in Australia is a PG certificate, not a degree, correct?

@Deeandfleur: I'm surprised to hear what you say about Korean degrees not transferring to western universities. AFAIK, they all do. BA holders with adequate language proficiency, from Korea, China, or Vietnam, can enroll in master's programs in the US, Canada, Australia, Europe. And master's degree holders can likewise enroll in Ph.D programs.

ngohly wrote:

Bonesy, I'd not go for a BA in Vietnam. Since you mentioned "Vietnamese culture and language," I'm assuming you don't have any intention of going into the academia or any highly specialized field like architecture or engineering. In that case, you'd be better off spending your resources to find more work and build your network, instead of of getting a "generic" degree, for lack of a better work. Here (and elsewhere) it's about experience and connection. A BA degree isn't very indicative of what you can bring to the table; and employers here know that too well. Just ask some of the bosses you know, Vietnamese and foreigner. Overseas, I've heard some employers say that they see the degree as an indicator of the applicant's work ethic: to an extent, you need to be goal-oriented enough to hand in all those assignments on time to finish in 4 years. But again, this is something that could be proved through your work experience. And pretty sure it doesn't apply much here

I'd even go so far as to contradict what others have said ITT, even for managerial positions, many employers won't question the legitimacy of your degrees. Can't tell you how many diploma mills I've seen listed in official bios of executives. Most recent is the country CEO of one of the biggest MNCs in Vietnam. To their credit, they all have legit BAs.

Agree with Wild_1 that college years is a formative time of exploration and growth for many, including myself. In the end, only you know whether you need to be on a campus for your personal and professional development. 

And to clear up some confusion, the course in Australia is a PG certificate, not a degree, correct?

@Deeandfleur: I'm surprised to hear what you say about Korean degrees not transferring to western universities. AFAIK, they all do. BA holders with adequate language proficiency, from Korea, China, or Vietnam, can enroll in master's programs in the US, Canada, Australia, Europe. And master's degree holders can likewise enroll in Ph.D programs.

Thank you for your reply,

Yes it is a Post Graduate certificate, nowhere does it mention that it is a degree.

I don't want to study, I feel I have plenty of work experience and know how but if I don't my work circumstances will change.

I guess I'm just going to have to bite the bullet, I really appreciate all of your thoughts and opinions. Thank you.

....A degree is what it is.... you earned that 4 years with a usual above 3.5 GPA.....I don't believe.that anything can compensate from that.... to make it real or official... Anywhere....

You get an MA.... write a thesis and defend it to the end... Like we had to....according to the rules of scholastic structure which is omnipresent.... in short...don't cut orders ... so don't be convinced that some Vietnamese skank that you recently met on some internet dating site from Vietnam.... will for her convenience...tell you otherwise....

Bonesy wrote:

I have explored that option and apparently marriage means nothing. (Someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong!)

You are WRONG, young man.  If you are legally married to a Vietnamese woman, you can get a Temporary Resident Card for a few years (3 years max, I believe).  When it expires, you just go renew it.  After 5 years (I think), you can get Vietnamese citizenship, and get to choose a Vietnamese name.  Then, you can stay here for as long as you want; and you can teach English as much as you like.  No one will harrass you; you will be Nam.

Well...  Technically speaking.  But if you get tied down to a wrong woman here, God forbid, you WILL NOT want that TRC, let alone citizenship.  Instead, you will want to get the hell out of Vietnam.  I don't recommend this option, Bonesy, even though the chick on your avatar is quite good looking.  BE VERY CAREFUL, man! 

Keep this in mind though...  Employment conditions are tough in the west.  Teaching English here has become more attractive to a lot of young people there.  Thus, more are coming here; and many have degrees in hands.  I think that is what you are facing.  The locals see this; and they are making it more difficult for you...

Business here?  Considering your lack of experience, don't do it!  This is worst than marrying an old bat.  It is trench warfare here, and it is on 24/7.  You would be better served with going back to school, despite the hate.

Wild_1 wrote:

Bonesy wrote:

I have explored that option and apparently marriage means nothing. (Someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong!)

You are WRONG, young man.  If you are legally married to a Vietnamese woman, you can get a Temporary Resident Card for a few years (3 years max, I believe).  When it expires, you just go renew it.  After 5 years (I think), you can get Vietnamese citizenship, and get to choose a Vietnamese name.  Then, you can stay here for as long as you want; and you can teach English as much as you like.  No one will harrass you; you will be Nam.

Well...  Technically speaking.  But if you get tied down to a wrong woman here, God forbid, you WILL NOT want that TRC, let alone citizenship.  Instead, you will want to get the hell out of Vietnam.  I don't recommend this option, Bonesy, even though the chick on your avatar is quite good looking.  BE VERY CAREFUL, man! 

Keep this in mind though...  Employment conditions are tough in the west.  Teaching English here has become more attractive to a lot of young people there.  Thus, more are coming here; and many have degrees in hands.  I think that is what you are facing.  The locals see this; and they are making it more difficult for you...

Business here?  Considering your lack of experience, don't do it!  This is worst than marrying an old bat.  It is trench warfare here, and it is on 24/7.  You would be better served with going back to school, despite the hate.

Hi Wild,

Sounds too good to be true!

So If I hold a temporary residency card I do not need a work permit?

With regards to my girlfriend, she is a keeper. That I know for sure.

Well there might be a light at the end of the tunnel after all

Wild_1 wrote:

Bonesy, even though the chick on your avatar is quite good looking.  BE VERY CAREFUL, man!

You're not implying that women use men for material things or to get a passport of a different color, are you Howie?

Let the kid be in love man...I thought I had the world by the b^lls too when I was 21!

dtcali wrote:

Wild_1 wrote:

Bonesy, even though the chick on your avatar is quite good looking.  BE VERY CAREFUL, man!

You're not implying that women use men for material things or to get a passport of a different color, are you Howie?

Let the kid be in love man...I thought I had the world by the b^lls too when I was 21!

oh for god's sake, telling Bonesy to be careful with the idea of getting a resident card via marriage is fine as he should be, dismissing his relationship when you have nothing to judge on (aside from his age and a profile picture) is downright disgusting.

ngohly wrote:

dtcali wrote:

Wild_1 wrote:

Bonesy, even though the chick on your avatar is quite good looking.  BE VERY CAREFUL, man!

You're not implying that women use men for material things or to get a passport of a different color, are you Howie?

Let the kid be in love man...I thought I had the world by the b^lls too when I was 21!

oh for god's sake, telling Bonesy to be careful with the idea of getting a resident card via marriage is fine as he should be, dismissing his relationship when you have nothing to judge on (aside from his age and a profile picture) is downright disgusting.

For Uncle Ho's sake why don't you stop reading too much between the lines??

Ngohly,

Go easy there, sis.  Look at the smiling faces at the bottom of Dtcali's post.

@dtcali: i apologize if i misinterpret your post. I've heard way too many similar comments directed toward myself and closed ones (and have also been told to take it easy later); apparently my skin is still not thick enough.

Wild_1 wrote:

What about you, why so brief?  Don't tell me you were doing criminal laws, and the investigavive processes freaked you out?

The US Army was sending me to Law School. After a month they thought I would make a much better target for the Iraqis than a lawyer. I still contemplate about going back but would have to take the LSAT's over again and re-apply.

Not a vast difference at all, just a different way to calculate the same thing.  A BA in Australia is weighted the same as a BA in the USA, and totally interchangeable.  It takes the same sort of time as well, 3 to 4 years depending on the particular course and the Honours component. And yes, well spell it differently, just like colour lol.

@Deeandfleur: I'm surprised to hear what you say about Korean degrees not transferring to western universities. AFAIK, they all do. BA holders with adequate language proficiency, from Korea, China, or Vietnam, can enroll in master's programs in the US, Canada, Australia, Europe. And master's degree holders can likewise enroll in Ph.D programs.

Sadly this is not so, and its not based on just language ability.  Although there are of course those 'mill' unis that for the right money will let anyone in.  I met many Korean university graduates that were trying to complete a Masters in Korea in order to gain entry into a basic degree course in the USA.  Most reputable Australian universities do not place the same weight on degrees gained in some countries. Korea, China, Vietnam and India would be among those countries.  The majority of students from those countries that attend mainstream unis in Australia also completed a portion of their high school in Australia to be able to qualify to get in. South African's also have the same problem.  I know people currently working in Australia in relatively minor roles compared to the work they did in SA because their degrees are not recognized in Australia and they would have to undertake more university study in order to be qualified. So its no just he uni's that don't place the same weight on a degree earned in some locations.

Personally I think this makes good sense as there are some underlying issues with degrees gained in some locations, but that's another issue!

dtcali wrote:

Wild_1 wrote:

Bonesy, even though the chick on your avatar is quite good looking.  BE VERY CAREFUL, man!

You're not implying that women use men for material things or to get a passport of a different color, are you Howie?

Let the kid be in love man...I thought I had the world by the b^lls too when I was 21!

A kid am I? haha.

Age is just a number my friend and having the world by the balls? I don't know how you got that assumption about me, but you're wrong!

Bonesy,

I think Dtcali is urging you to be a little more cautious in your assessment of people and things.  Vietnam is not a place where you want to wave your kid gloves.  People and things here can change very quickly.  He and I have seen it.