Questions about shifting to Jo-burg

Hi  _castor !

Welcome to Expat.com!

Armand

Hi, Armand

Thanks !

Hi Castor. You'll find these sorts of questions (and a lot more) get asked and answered a lot on this forum.

1: The majority of working South Africans pay Pay As You Earn (PAYE) tax on their salaries: this is deducted by your employer (the more you earn the higher your tax rate). Ask your employer what your gross (cost to company) and nett (what gets paid into your account) salary will be. Most employers quote the gross salary in job adverts.
2: House with a pool and garage? You're going to pay through your nose, I'm sorry. The majority of Johannesburg rent inside security complexes: firstly because it's safer (electric fencing and 24/7 guards), and secondly because it's cheaper (more people in a smaller space). To thumbsuck, I'm guessing you'll pay north of R20 000 in a good area, R15 000 in an 'ok' area.
3: The only way to avoid being stuck in traffic is to live close to your job. There is no substitute for proximity, as the further away you live you become exponentially more liable to get jammed up in freak accidents, bad weather, lane closures etc. If you're talking about OR Tambo, I think your best bet will be the Edenvale or Bedfordview area. I always recommend that people look on Google Maps and check Streetview to get a real sense of the area.
4: I've never heard of any such issues. Nobody is going to say no to good money. Just take the usual precautions to avoid high-mileage vehicles or deals that are too good to be true. South African vehicles are far more expensive than in the UK or US, and used vehicles are seen as investments. As for cabrios and roofless jeeps, I'd avoid it personally: in Johannesburg you avoid making yourself a target, and opportunistic smash-and-grab attacks are a reality for the unwary. There's a reason car windows are all dark: they've got 'smash-and-grab' protective film over them - all the better for people outside to not look in.
5: There are a lot of motorcycle riders in Johannesburg, but they're generally frowned upon by motorists for their habit of darting between traffic and into oncoming lanes at high speed to avoid rush-hour traffic. Motorcylists in turn hate careless motorists who don't see them before changing lanes. *shrugs* I'd say it's up to you, but I wouldn't: the highways are a scary enough place as they are. Also, pothole (rather common in town) + motorbike = nasty accident.
6: Before you can buy a gun you have to have a gun permit from the police. For this, you will need to have some training, do some motivation to prove that crime is a problem in your area and have a certified gun safe in your apartment. Also, you need to seriously consider whether a gun will help you or not in an armed confrontation: it could just as easily provoke. To start off with, consider getting a can of pepper spray and/or an electric tazer. And prevention is better than cure: stay in a security complex instead.
7: I'd say that depends on your wife, how aware she is of her surroundings and the route and time she picks. The centre of Johannesburg isn't a nice area. Fourways, however, is fine. Alexandra is a definite no-no (even for you). Rivonia is fine. Randburg is ageing, Boksburg is poor, Bryanston is fine ... you'll figure it out. See what other people are doing: if they're walking around happily, it's safe. If they're darting around with their hands wrapped around their handbags, it's not.

Hope all this helps a bit ... despite all of the above, Johannesburg isn't as bad as I've painted. It's just a city where you take every caution to not become a statistic, so that you can spend your time focusing on the things you need to: earning money and figuring out where to spend it.

Hi, thanks a lot for your answers.

As about house - I'd prefer to pay through nose than live in non-comfortable environment. I hope that there are houses combined in the secured districts - is it true ? Are these districts you've mentioned safe ones or not? They're located very close to office - it will be great to live there.
About motorcycles - your concerns are general - we have the same all around the world, I suppose, its ok for me.
About gun permit - is it correct that I can receive it not being citizen of the state ?

Thanks again !

Regards,

You're welcome Castor. Yeah, there are entire communities which are behind a single wall and electric fence, with only one exit and permanent guards. Those would be the most expensive. A cheaper alternative is the idea of a 'gated suburb' - this is a regular suburb with only two entrance and exit points. A boom gate is erected across the public road, manned by at least one guard. The concern here is that due to city restrictions, these are often pretty fluid: about the most a guard at a boomed gate can do is ask a visitor to fill in their details in a book - and most just raise the boom straight away if you are considered to look 'acceptable'.

Bedfordview is slightly more upmarket, with Edenvale a bit more working class but still respectable. Areas can be highly variable from one block to another, so that's why I recommended you check out the exact location you're interested in through Google Streetview (if you can't visit there in person).

As for the gun permit, I've never seen any restriction about it not being available to a non-resident, but I'll be honest that I don't know: I'm a resident. Don't think it's a quick process though: paperwork and certifications always take longer than you expect, so don't run off the nearest gunshop just yet (although when you do get here they'll definitely be able to advise you).

Thanks !

Surely I will come to select the house myself - only thing that I have to do now is to send details to an agent for short-listing offers... Bedfordview looks good at Google

As about gun permit understand, thanks.

Will revert with questions after first visit to Jo-burg - I'm sure, they will appear

You're welcome Castor, I'll be happy to help. Maybe send me a direct message if I don't respond - sometimes the tracking function for updates on these threads doesn't work, so I wouldn't hear your reply.

Bedforview got some areas not that nice, make sure you know beforehand.
Or Tambo is relatively easy access from every major highway, so try to keep the options open as in house location, you can always stay in an apartment for at least 2-3 months initially while you look, that's what I did and I'm living in a stand alone house, with pool, garages, massive garden, and I'm paying less than R15k, it took me a while but I found a nice place.
And now we are thinking of buying a similar place

Keep us updated!

Sorry for keeping silence - lot's of things to do in a short time-frame & thanks a lot for your answers !

We will have visit to Jo-burg at April to settle everything - hope that real estate agents will find something for us to select from.

Dear Silvana, not to spend time - can you pls advise good district at which "stand alone house, with pool, garages, massive garden, and I'm paying less than R15k" can be found ?

Thanks again,

See you upon arrival

Woodmead, Buccleuch, Wendywood- around the area you can find very nice spacious houses, most of them are realatively 'old' constructtions, at least 7-10 years, with good renovations (kitchens, bathrooms, etc), this is all Sandton area, we have a massive shopping center less than 10ks away, and all major highways within a 5km radius....it just works very nicely Hope that helps!

Let us know when you are around, maybe we can show you the area and you can decide!

Hi, I am a South African living in Randburg and I thought my two cents might be of value to Castor
Reillusioned gives very detailed, helpful information and in my opinion you can't go wrong with his advice. When it comes to where you will work and where you will live, they must both be closely tied in Johannesburg since transportation is solely up to the individual. For example, if you live in Bedfordview and your work is in Midrand, you are going to have nothing short of a nightmare to get to work everyday.

Reillusioned wrote:

3: The only way to avoid being stuck in traffic is to live close to your job. There is no substitute for proximity, as the further away you live you become exponentially more liable to get jammed up in freak accidents, bad weather, lane closures etc. If you're talking about OR Tambo, I think your best bet will be the Edenvale or Bedfordview area. I always recommend that people look on Google Maps and check Streetview to get a real sense of the area.

However, I have something to add to Reillusioned's point 2:

Reillusioned wrote:

2: House with a pool and garage? You're going to pay through your nose, I'm sorry. The majority of Johannesburg rent inside security complexes: firstly because it's safer (electric fencing and 24/7 guards), and secondly because it's cheaper (more people in a smaller space). To thumbsuck, I'm guessing you'll pay north of R20 000 in a good area, R15 000 in an 'ok' area.

I agree, if you are adding a pool and in your own words 'a massive garden', you will definitely be hitting the R15K bracket. If the pool and garden size is optional for you, you could still find a decent 2 bedroom, 2 bath, double garage and private garden in a secure complex for R5000-R10000 in well established areas. Keeping in mind that lots of secure complexes offer pool facilities. I've recently been looking through the newspapers for a friend who is moving up here from the coast, and I have seen a fair amount of places in that price bracket in areas like Little Falls, Strubensvalley, Weltevreden, Northcliff and Greenside.
In the more upmarket areas like Rosebank, Sandton, Bryanston and Edenvale your price bracket will definitely shift from R15000-R22000 automatically.

Silvana_Arocha wrote:

this is all Sandton area, we have a massive shopping center less than 10ks away,

..the one thing you can be assured of in JHB is the abundance of shopping malls and centers! You never have to worry about being far from a mall, in fact you can probably take your pick between 3 different malls at any given location. For example, in my area, within a 1-3km radius I have 2 malls and 4 open-air shopping centers to choose from

I hope I gave you some insight into living here, shout if you have any thoughts/questions!

Wow Charmedbytheblue, I don't think anybody's ever endorsed my opinions as completely - thanks! Grab a free fan t-shirt at the door, lol.

No problemo Reillusioned, I know a reasonable, balanced approach when I see one One can only hope for there to be someone on these kind of things that can offer something of value towards making a life changing decision like this, and you're definitely one of them!

Oh, and I'd like mine in lime green, please.

Thanks a lot for your answers.

Received details - will receive R15 000 monthly for all - rent + utilities. Range is shortening

charmedbytheblue, thanks, it was a quote reg. "massive garden" - we're just looking for a house with pool at safe environment, that's all. Hope that we manage to get it.

As about transportation - we at MOW have very tight traffic - it took me 2,5 hours one-way to get from home to work at my previous place of living - and 90 minutes which I have now are like a heaven As a result, staying at traffic for an hour a day is just routine daily exercise. But - in any case - office should be as close to the house as possible.

Silvana, thanks again, we will have agents hired for us (and I will provide your list of districts to them), so you shouldn't bother - just come for barbecue when we will be in

Reillusioned, you're also welcome !

Now - question to all - what is the amount enough for "easy go" life at Jo-burg for a pair without children ? Will gather all opinions and calculate average to understand if there will be a possibility to save anything...

PS: Congratulations with Women's Day to all ladies !

Hi to everybody!
Just back from Jo-burg - excellent city, excellent people.

Selected 2-bedroom half-cottage at Bedfordview.
Will shift permanently in appox 1 month.

Will keep updated

Hello , I am a single woman and live in Johannesburg. I have lived all over the world and can honestly say that Johannesburg is a beautiful , friendly and wonderful city. Full of people from other countries and you have nothing to worry about.

You and your wife will be very happy here.

I am going to attach my email address and you are both welcome to mail me and i can answer all your questions and help in any way.

Warm Regards

Jill
[email protected]

Hallo
I lived in Joburg while my husband was working there last year.
I had a wonderfull time and miss it a lot!
If your wife wants to know something, she can contact me! I did a lot of different volunteer work to keep myself busy
Enjoy your time there!
regards
Mirjam

Thanks, ladies.

Will forward your contacts to my wife !

Hello, everybody.
Sorry for not appearing here for a while - work permit issuance is not a short deal

Now we - finally - shifted to Jo-burg and settled at nice cottage at Bedfordview. So - if anybody wants to get in contact - just drop ypuc contacts as private messages (if not done before ).

Not promizing that we have a party in 1-2 weeks as now lot's of stuff to be settled down starting from the car, but - for sure - we will available for chat

BR,
Anton

Welcome to JHB Anton - hope it's all you were hoping it to be! Good luck with the car issue.

Welcome! Hope you guys get settled properly!
Let me know when you want to come around for a drink or two!

Thanks !
We will be more communicative after settling down...

dears...i would like to know your unbiased and honest views on Safety and security in JHB. My wife and i care so much about safety. have understood that even gated communities are not safe as their guards are the robbers. also understood that the drive ways to your compound are mainly the choke points where robbers come down at you while you are waiting for the vehicle gate to open. the crime rate is rated second globally. 44 murders last weekend in cape town...many in joborg...total of 140,000 murdered since 2004. daily crime rates is peaking primarily in the good supposedly safe areas neighborhoods.

LET ME KNOW YOUR VIEWS PLEASE

Dear, the crime here - up to us - is not higher than in any big city worldwide... for sure, you should be cautious, but there is nothing extra-ordinary here

thank you castor...so ranked the second city worlwide in crime is ok? 144,000 killed in crime since 2004 and it is ok? come one:)
as i said, i am really looking for an unbiased opinion
thanks

I am from Colombia which was also ranked in between the top 5...and now I am in South Africa...how unbiased is to tell you that what castor is saying is absolutely true.

If you are planning to move base only on that, rather look for another place...if you see the news that's the only thing you'll see, but then again, what you heard about Colombia was only drugs and violence and the reality was different!...

thank you sylvana...i know where you are coming from...being patriot and positively populating the right word of mouth is the right way to conquer the rumors for which jhb is remowed for....but again, we cant hide the facts, can we? when the official police departments weekly reports daylight crimes across various upscale areas, then we cant just claim those are news... they are deliberately reporting those crimes on weekly basis for a reason. therefore i am asking for an honest, practical and objective opinion per se rather than an emotional one which i totally understand the motives behind. this is an open blog and forum that is intended to give the right scoop into what is real life like is in jhb...i hope you got my point...i have always wanted to visit colombia btw...heard it has its upside too "its people"

pls advise

lebanonAH, I live in JHB and I feel that your experience of the crime is going to be directly proportional to the risks you take.

If you...
1: Avoid entering areas you're not familiar (including skipping red traffic lights at night)
2: Keep an eye out for suspicious activity around you
3: Live in a security complex and keep your doors and windows locked at night
4: Avoid flashing valuables in public (including leaving your laptop or handbag visible on your car seat)
5: Take other reasonable precautions to avoid becoming a target
... you should be fine.

If you do the inverse of the above, you'll become a target and the chances of something bad happening will escalate significantly.

You talk about the crime statistics, but bear something in mind: Johannesburg has a population of 4,5 million people (if you trust Wikipedia).

Take your hundreds of incidences of violent crime and convert it into a ratio, and you'll see what we're talking about here. Yes, crime is a concern you cannot (safely) ignore, but if anything the odds are in your favour that nothing will happen to you.

thanks reillusioned

i mean how safe it is to run or jog after work hours around your neighborhood when you will not be carrying anything valuable on you? I heard it is not at all irrespective due to the rape crime...thus no longer a theft crime but worse...where can you go on weekends? you cant even trust having a late dinner out.... i also learnt that even the secured and gated complexes with double or boomed security are a target as well. So when you are renting a safe apartment in a safe gated complex and still have robbers sneaking into the compounds by subduing the guards, then we are in real chaotic place. if i want to pick up a medicine post midnight on urgent cases, will i have to worry and prefer to stick at home in pain rather than taking the risk of being kidnapped, or robbed or car hijacked? those are things really you cant control and the minute you are slightly out of the comfort safe zone, you are a target. bingo!
check this below link please regarding the ration and rate of murder per population (around 34%) which is extremely high

guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/oct/10/world-murder-rate-unodc
16900 murders in one year meaning 44 murders a day and source is national police

now, the question goes to you, are there super secured complexes? which is the safest area to stay at? is woodmead safe? are there any security companies that can drive you at night in case of emergencies from point a to b? can you go clubbing and take a cab back home at 2 am??

pls advise

Haha LebanonAH, that's one of the sort of concerns you will only figure out when you get to Johannesburg.

There is no concern about jogging, because most people don't jog - or if they do, they leave it to inside mega gyms (seriously, you've never seen palaces like some of the major 'health clubs' in Johannesburg).

That said, you do see people jogging in pairs and even by themselves in daylight - especially within 'gated suburbs' (suburbs where main entrances on public roads have been boomed off with a security checkpoint).

In terms of the crime you read about in newspapers, you don't read about joggers being mugged, so maybe it's safe after all? I just think it's the sort of risk that the average Johannesburger doesn't take - or if you do, you have a can of pepper spray for defense on you.

I don't know where you get that percentage of 34%??? In terms of the official SAPS police statistics - http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/repor … auteng.pdf - there were 3 000 murders in Gauteng (the province Johannesburg is situated in) last year. There are a total of 7 million people living in Gauteng. The maths on that: 0.04%! In another way - you have a 1 in 2 333 chance of being murdered in Gauteng every year.

Like I emphasised previously, if you look after yourself your chances are WAY better than that. Yes, you read about the freak incidences like people who are mugged at gunpoint, and who are shot while trying to fight against their attackers, but it's not as frequent as you seem to think.

For the most part, Johannesburg is a place with high salaries (and that's relatively high on a global scale), where you can fast-forward your career development if you grab the right opportunities and move jobs every so often after gaining enough momentum ... that's what most people do here.

Does that help explain it a bit more? Let me quote Will Smith for you: "Fear is not real. It is a product of thoughts you create. Do not misunderstand me. Danger is very real. But Fear is a choice."

tx u

Lebanon,

I live and work in Woodmead, I walk my dogs every night, I live in a free standing house, not an enclosed complex, haven't had any close encounter in 2 years I've been here. But my husband did took the proper measures - electric fencing, high walls, security gates in every door, etc.

When we come late after a party we call our security company to meet us and drive us home, it's very common here. I have even use them coming back from the office really late driving by myself.

Most of the suburbs have private patrol cars + metro police, and some even neighbourhood watch and domestics watch and all that.

Late dinner? if you count 24 hour drive thru, yes. Most of the restaurants close their kitchens around 10pm, and that's not just here in SA.

Reillusioned is right, don't put yourself in a position you give someone else the opportunity to do what you are not comfortable with. Take precautions.

Being this an open forum you will get personal experiences that might not be the most pleasant ones...I speak from my perspective and the people around me.

thanks silvana...u mentioned something about a security company to drive you home or escort you home when you are on a late night out. This could be a good option. is it expensive? how much does it cost per drive? is it a monthly subscription? pls advise

thank you all for the insights...stay safe

It's part of the package that we use at home, it includes the alarms and all, it's a full year subscription and you have 4 rides/month or you can add to the initial package. Check ADT's website all the info is there, that's the one we use, but most of the companies offer that.

thank you silvana...

No problem! It's a pleasure