Foreigner's View of Living in Saigon

Hi Saigon Ted

I am Vietnamese and live in HCM now. I don't want to giev any comment about what you said above. That's what a foreigner saw. Good or Bad, it's up to different view of everyone or maybe "shock culture".

http://joe.vn/#story_en
This is Joe, a Canadan person, but he loves Viet Nam and we love him too. He has just written a book name" nguoc chieu vun vut" in vietnamese to comment what he saw in vietnamese culture and people. I read it...100% right. Although it was written a a foreigner, it was nice book.

Hope you will happy when you here.

Sounds like you should be booking an early flight out of here! There's frequent United flights.

Whose country is this? It should be YOU adapting to their CULTURE rather than YOU trying to play the missionary. The VN earned the right to do what they want.

[Moderated: Off topic]

Responding to your points.

Vietnamese aren't Western, so why should they have Western manners or as you put it 'tact' to accommodate YOU? This country has a history measured in thousands of years whilst yours has one measured in hundreds/

If someone cuts in I simply point out that they are behind me, works most every time. Or you can tell the person you are talking to you will take your business elsewhere. The Italians do this, too.

I'd rather have someone address my shortcomings 'in front of me' rather than doing a knife job behind my back.

Poking people in the stomach isn't childish, a fat person is someone whose size signifies wealth (can afford lots of food). They call you fat because, to them, you appear so. Some people have likened it to touching  z Buddha's stomach.

If you listen, carefully, children frequently address adults as equals although they signal their relative positions by using different phrases that indicate their relationship (uncle on mothers side).

The lack of "Hello, goodbye, or thanks" can be a sign of their familiarity/closeness they feel with you. Also much communication is carried out by eye and facial expressions. I can communicate across a room without verbalising, but it took sometime to learn.

SOME vendors regard (rich) Foreigners as potential pots of gold but when you have been here a while you will learn the tricks. I never bargain, which they regard as part of the fun of business, I walk away.

If you are in a market you study other people's transactions. A bunch of bananas might see a blue (VND20,000) pass hands with some small change in return passed back. THAT gives you, if you are observant, information, a hint of roughly how much you expect to pay or if what they ask is out of line.

Besides, overcharging is limited to tourist areas. I only pay VND5,000 for a cafe sau in Quan 1, bet you don't!

Picking noses is a Vietnamese habit - in Singapore the Chinese snort water - all with the intent to clear the nasal passages. I'm surprised you haven't picked up on the hair grooming and searches for nits or their habit of seemingly drilling through the heads as they clean their ears.

I am also surprised to see you didn't comment on meats hanging out in the open without refrigeration, or that you can buy dog meat here.

When I first married my wife I was amazed at the fact she had a freshly washed set of day clothes for the office, another set for the evening at home AND freshly laundered sleepwear - EVERY DAY! (My poor electricity and water bill)

I work intimately with 34 odd VN females in my DakLak office and I can tell you they smell good, as in clean.

The only thing we Westerners (management) insisted on was that hands had to be washed after attending to natures calls. We had the wash basins mounted outside the toilets so we could visually check on this.

Vietnamese think differently and therefore they do things differently, which is what you call 'common sense'. They have many habits that might not make sense to YOU but that is because you are ignorant of certain facts, certain practices.

One thing that I have zero tolerance for is breaching traffic laws. I always wear a POV camera, and use a couple of other cameras, too, and I have modified my motorcycle so if a taxi cuts me off they end up with a slash in their door or a hole in their bumper.

I sweated my VN driving licence, and the law is the law and I obey it. It others choose not to and suffer damage, tough.

I am not the perfect citizen, but I generally obey the law, don't get drunk, cause disturbances. I pay taxes (do you?), my VAT payments arrive on time and calculated correctly even before the government has determined what I owe. I pay my employees health coverage, we have a dentist fly in twice a year from TP HCM, and er contribute more than the companies share to social program levees.

This gives me the right to demand what I think is hust and right, for me and my family,

Many VN thieves are thieves of opportunity, you present the opportunity and they will take it. Crime in VietNam is far, far less than in the USA (source Interpol).

VN is largely a cash economy, credit is only extended to people they trust. Even large companies employ bagmen whose sole job is to go out and settle bills in cash.

I wouldn't trust you, and vice versa, because we don't know each other. Likewise with the VN. I can order from certain suppliers on the understanding they will get paid within a known period of time. Word of mouth, a verbal undertaking, is very common here. You are just not plugged in to the society.

Your opinion above says much, much more about you than this country. Your opinion is not shared by many Foreigners for why, pray tell, would so many Foreigners want to move here?

Until you have visited Hue and understand the principles of Feng Shui applied to a natural setting, or you have watched the sun set in Lai Chau or stayed on Phu Quy Island or learned how they make nuoc mam, or have visited the nature reservations you have seen nothing. And if you have seen little, your knowledge is minimal and the value of your opinion likewise.

And your opinion is yours, and yours alone. Don't ask me to support your viewpoint because you have seen nothing of this country. TP HCM / SaiGon is NOT VietNam.

It's a pity you can't change your title to One Foreigners View of Living in SaiGon, for that is all it is.

nhandong wrote:

... I don't want to giev any comment about what you said above. That's what a foreigner saw. Good or Bad, it's up to different view of everyone or maybe "shock culture". ...

I hope this lady has used enough TACT to respond to your post.

Nhan Dong, the OP's views are not common amongst Foreigners so don't get offended, just think about how little he knows and how much he is missing.

The Chinese have a saying:  "When you point your finger at someone, three fingers are pointing back at you".

Jaitch wrote:

Until you have visited Hue and understand the principles of Feng Shui applied to a natural setting, or you have watched the sun set in Lai Chau or stayed on Phu Quy Island or learned how they make nuoc mam, or have visited the nature reservations you have seen nothing. And if you have seen little, your knowledge is minimal and the value of your opinion likewise.

Or, get to spend Tet with a Vietnamese family.

Good opinions are formed over times and through extended experiences.  Anything short of that is just a hasty generalization.  Saigon is not Vietnam, the knuckleheads that pick people's pockets and their noses in public are not Vietnamese.  They are just tiny parts of a much grander thing.

It is too bad that Ted did not get an opportunity to spend more time in other parts of Vietnam and meet some of the better people that make up the bulk of this population.  Hopefully, in time, he will and his view will change. 

Best wishes,
Howie

The only thing we Westerners (management) insisted on was that hands had to be washed after attending to natures calls. We had the wash basins mounted outside the toilets so we could visually check on this.


I'm passing this info to my husband...they work with very sensitive (quality wise) products and have been having problems with this situation... a lot of problems.

A survey made two years ago amongst food workers found that 94% never washed their hands after attending the toilet.

And most Vietnamese don't use toilet paper.

Something to think about!

@Jaitch, i completely agree with you. Too often people forget we are a guest in their country. Nobody forced us to come here, it is up to us to make the changes and not vice versa. The Vietnamese will change what they want to change when they want to change.

Most foreigners have no problem lapping up the expat life here and the privileges that comes with it but quick to cast judgement when the locals don't do things the way the foreigners want.

Hi everyone

"When in Rome, do as Roman does". You will feel better when you open your heart and try to understand our culture.

Just give you some examples:

1. I saw a couple of western kissing,embracing at crossroad when we are waiting for traffic light in frotn of many people. This view made us feel embarrassed cos we never do like this on street. Just do it in private place.

2. I met some foreigners, they tried to understand our culture==> we welcome and helpd us to understand as much as they can. So happy when foreigner want to know more about our country and culture, cuisine...

3. I was shocked when an Italian hug me then kiss my cheeks. That is the first time a woman kiss me. But I knwo that is western culture. After my shock in short second, I feel happy and never forget that couple because they gave me a rose in valentine day. A small action but Italian people always have a good position in my heart.

This topic helped me understand more about vietnamese custom cuture and peope under foreigner's eyes.

OK - that's a few of the points for the new 'arrivals' to digest and get used to.
Always better to remember when YOU are the visitor in someone else's home or country.
I've only been living here for 3 months so far, have a WONDERFUL partner and she helps me try to understand things here when I get confused. (daily)

On the point of how much to pay - question for Jaitch, since he's been here 20 odd years and knows how things work.
I recently brought a new motorbike, (YES - I've got my VN drivers license) all sorts of the usual problems with ownership papers, registration, etc. as expected, but most of that only took about a week to get sorted out.

My problem is, the bike had a plastic chain guard over the rear chain. The original guard broke off at the front mounting screw on the third day. Same thing happened with the replacement plastic guard on it's second day.
It's a materials design fault, nothing else.
After much finger pointing and my partner doing her best to translate, we, the mechanic and myself as the shop owner wasn't there that day, agreed on a custom made metal replacement for 400K VND. TOTAL price, went over that point several times.
Couple of days later and a phone call. The new metal guard is fitted.
This time the shop owner was there and took the payment.
Before he fitted the guard I showed him the 400K VND in 100K notes and indicated to the guard - again holding up only 4 fingers to indicate the price. He agreed, nodded his head - fitted the guard, took the 400K VND, counted it, nodded again when I said "OK ?" Then he put the money away in a draw.
All fixed, until 2 - 3 hours later when my partner gets a phone call from the shop owner who is NOW complaining that I only paid him 400K and he wanted 500K !   
So, what should I do ???  Should I go back and pay him the extra 100K or not ?
 
I pass his shop every day coming and going from my apartment to the gym. The bike is VERY easy to see and hear.(V-twin engine) 

Lets face it - 100K isn't worth loosing any sleep over and a custom made metal chain guard back home in Oz would have cost a LOT more than here, and back in Oz, I'd probably still be waiting for it to be made !

Flip465:
I don't know which machine you bought but I don't understand why you did't go to the manufacturers agent.

I have a Kymco and I often visit their head office in An Lac, in fact every time I visit I get a free service, including parts.

There is only one motorcycle alley and that's centred on To Uyen between Hung Vuong and Nguyen Chi Thanh is Quan 10.

There are a few mod shops where they polish the standard machine up elsewhere in the city. But this is the largest area.

For VND400,000 I could have had a custom cover made in stainless steel in 203 quality, These To Uyen guys know their stuff, I've seen drive bearings repaired (common on Honda), engines stripped and upgraded. When I got my machine, I had the ports polished and a few performance items - because I often drive to DakLak.

Your guy was obviously trying to work a number. No mechanic would let you leave his shop without getting paid and since you drove away it follows you paid him what he expected.

Still can't figure why you didn't contact the factory, they do most things free.

Jaitch wrote:

A survey made two years ago amongst food workers found that 94% never washed their hands after attending the toilet.

And most Vietnamese don't use toilet paper.

Something to think about!

Oh I don't think this is real ! If they don't use toilet paper, what do they use instead ? . In my mind, a clean and tidy lifestyle depends on each family. I used to see an American boy not washing his hands after attending the toilet.

My family members are very clean and careful when making the dishes. We also look for information about food that's good for our health. We rarely have junk food ( my Mom doesn't allow me to eat streets food as well )

I think Vietnamese lifestyle has both bright side and drawbacks, we're trying to minimize the drawbacks day by day

Jaitch,
sorry - missed those points - the bike is a ' Visitor 175 ' purchased from 'MOTORROCK'shop, District 7 a few weeks ago.
From the limited paper work (advertising sheets in the shop) and their web-site, think that 'MOTORROCK' is about as close to an agent as you could get since they seem to be the only group of motorbike shops selling this, and a couple of other brands / models of bike.
We saw the bike one day when heading home. The two of us on the one bike is really too much for 'THE BOSS' to handle with my extra 85kgs of weight.
The 'BETTER HALF' started out liking the bike but after the first week, she has become somewhat vocal with her ideas about the bike.  " Too big "  " Too noisy " " You should not buy - should buy Honda " 
I tried a few other bikes first and to be quite honest, to myself the physically smaller bikes, like her Honda Lite Blade 150, etc. make me nervous. Feels like there is almost nothing in front of the handlebars.
This is just a 'feeling' - after four decades of riding bikes of only 650cc or bigger.
Think the  'Vistor 175' will be going as soon as I can find a buyer at a reasonable price, and it will be replaced with a Honda PCX or similar.

NEED peace at home, that's MUCH more important.
(Been getting quite a few 'HINTS' over the last couple of weeks about a CAR !)

It appears that you have a Chinese piece od engineering. The distributor even gas a web site that details a very varied number of products. See: < http://en.fimexco.com.vn/product/2/motorcycle.aspx >.

People who don't know also buy used Honda's that were actually knock-offs made in China.Most likely the manuals are in Chinese, too.

One thing with Kymco, a legal derivative of Honda, they gave me manuals and parts breakdown manuals all in English and with wholesale and dealer pricing!

Still at least there are plenty of Honda dealers around so the competition is fierce.

I have a four-wheeled vehicle and except for the fact I have parking at a Kia dealership in yown, I wouldn't (didn't used to) bring it here but parked it in Bien Hoa.

I have 4" I-beam for bumpers and you'd be surprised how many idiots bump into them. One idiot ran a red and caught his leg on my trailer hitch and broke his leg. If you care for your paint work, don't druve a car. The steel doesn't even match Euro or North American specs and car.

Anyway, if you need names of decent repair/mod shops to fix things just post.

OK - now officially not very happy.
From reading the spec. sheet / advertising flier at 'MOTORROCK' one would assume the bike was 95% made / constructed / put together in Viet Nam with the parent company being in Malaysia.

Dear members,

Several off topic posts have been moved from the thread.
I would suggest that you concentrate on the topic and avoid unnecessary personal attacks or bringing up points that have nothing to do with the iniator's post.

Thanks
Armand

Can i report the mods for being party poopers? agreed though.

Sir Alex,

Maybe you should...  This thing is getting ways out of hand...

Adminstrators, I hope you guys are getting a grip on things, as oppose to giving s..ts to us!

I am just going to pretend that I did not see that PM one of you "administrators" sent me.

Stop the jokes, man.  Get to the real, sh.t!

Howie

Can anyone contact me in private and explain me what's going on here ? I just don't understand... (I've been busy on other things)

Thanks,

Julien

I'll just add something: don't forget to use the "report" link, it helps us a lot to identify problems

Julien wrote:

don't forget to use the "report" link

To me, those are fighting words.  As stupid as I am when it come to www, but you can't insult my intelligence that way, man.

I really hope that I won't have to go further on this...

(just sent you a pm)

Julien,

Hi Harmonie,

With all due respects, Budman was trying to provide me with a lead.  That was until one of your guys ommitted it.  He and I were more than capable of exchanging personal infos and communicate privately.  As a matter of fact, we already did on certain matters.

But, on the issue of premium cloth napkins.  I decided to put it on here simply because that I felt other expats might want to know the same thing that I was looking to find out.  These items don't exist here, yet they are quite common household items to most of us.

I had worked in the garment industry for over 20 years, with all sorts of contacts in Vietnam; yet, I had to put that question on here.  Anyone with any common sense would automatically know the difficulties involved.

The reason that we went off track was because one of you de-railed us.

From the moment I wrote these comments, I had lost all of my respects for you guys.  I mean...  I had seen idiots that went on here and promoted things that were downright illegal in America; and you guys were just nonchalant about them.  Then, to be critical of me, Budman1 and Sir Alex Is All That, over our brief discussion about table cloths?

Give me a break you guys.  When you decide to go global, you must, at the very least, understand a thing or two about other cultures.  You don't just cut off an American and expect him/her to be fine with it, especially when he/she is not infringing upon any other person's right and is paying the proper respects to the rights of others.

With that said, I would be more than happy to make this one of the primary mediums in which expats can exchange information about life and work in Vietnam.  However, you guys are going to have to really tone it down personally and professionally, in order to make it work.

I hope that you know where I am coming from.  I welcome your critiques.

Sincerely,
Howie

Last but not least, when it comes to me, I am a public person.  I have no problem expressing my views in public and accepting others' views in public.  I am all good if someone address me as an idiot, provided that person has good grounds.