Racism? - Hugely Disappointed

Oxford dictionary:
Pronunciation:
/ˈreɪsɪz(ə)m/
noun
[mass noun]
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races

I don't think he is racism. Why? If it makes you feel better, it is you he hates, not your race. In other word, it IS personal.

How do I know? Well, because I (and I think many Vietnamese) have been subject to similarly rude treatments.

In addition, there are tons of irrational reasons. In Vietnam, you can be denied job offer even if you are the best qualified, if the astrologer of the boss says that your zodiac sign is incompatible to the boss'. A client can refuse to sign a contract if it is a bad day to do so. A shop owner just closes the business since he does feel like doing business.
A customer gets cursed, yelled at if he just doesn't give an counteroffer to the shop owner's astronomical price. Watch out esp in the morning since they believe the first customer brings good or bad luck for the whole day.

Good thing is not everyone is like that (as you witnessed), though many are, so just take it as one of the 'strange' things about Vietnam.

On another note: Are the Vietnamese racists? Absolutely. Ask the Chinese Vietnamese or biracial children (products of the Vietnam war) and they will tell you the difficulties they face(d). However, racism is in every countries. At least, in Vietnam, you don't get lynched or shot at (as, say the US), just cursed at (very loudly)

Also forgot to add that there are food stalls where the owners seem to take a sadistic pleasure of openly harassing their customers, in particular in the North where customer service (or rather lack therefore) is legendary. It got to the point where the stores' branding is this harassment. There are newspaper articles written about them, that's why I know about it.

ouch. sure the reasons are there and its probably not real racism, but i wouldve been pretty annoyed if that happened to me, yeah. luckily ive never had any experience such.. i even visited the street u mention, and got myself a pretty nice guitar, after visiting two shops. sure they werent the most friendly either, but nothing close to how rude this shop was. did u happen to note the name? the shop called Duy Ngoc is where i got my guitar - i'd recommend that place

Maybe being English our view on racism is slightly different. But I can tell you in the UK if a Negro/Asian tried to walk into a guitar shop in England and was denied entering because he didn't like the person It would be put down to racism.

Comparing this scenario to the massacre of thousands of people is a bit drastic, there are different forms of racism that do not have to involve death and pain.
I posted the topic because I was interested to read other thoughts and interpretations of what happened and hopefully try and find out what his problem was with me.
If he actually said he was turning down my business then that to me would of been a more acceptable, professional answer.

The fact his only words interoperated from his rather amused co-worker was 'he doesn't like me' didn't for obvious reasons sit well with me.

xpression wrote:

did u happen to note the name? the shop called Duy Ngoc is where i got my guitar - i'd recommend that place

I didn't no but I pick up my guitar today so I will make a note of it and post it on here.

As for the shop I bought my guitar from, that was called Dai Viet and I would highly recommend the place.

Hi gang,

No that was not racism.  It was more of a case of low self-esteem.  The guy either lags the confidence in his communication skills or in his products.  It is one of the main reasons I encourage foreigner to take up Vietnamese, at least.  It is to overcome barriers such as the one mentioned by Bonesy.

Howie

Better get used to the overt discrimination and racism here Bonesy.  You won't change them and it could drive you to the brink of insanity, if you're not careful!  It's best to just keep smiling and move on.

This country has went from 1000 years of war and followed by peace, extreme poverty, then an "overnight" economic boom.  It'll take them a while to catch up to the level of society you and I enjoy at home. 

The best way to lead is by example and you're embarking on a career that enables you to set an example to the future generation, if you choose.

Jaitch wrote:

As for the alleged racism against the Chinese you need to know your history.

Jaitch

I like your panache telling native people who not only know about it but also suffered greatly through the period in direct person, to go learn more about it like a schoolkid.

Anyway, the relationship with the big brother on the North has lasted over a 1000 years. Lately, it is a very sensitive subject and under strict censor from the government, so people don't know much about it unless you can read Vietnamese and have access to blocked blogs, so I will spare you all about it.

Anyway, back to the topic about racism in Vietnam:
May be things in Vietnam have changed for the better so racism no longer is an issue, though I seriously doubt it. I hope I am wrong. The Chinese, the minorities have suffered serious discrimination through hundreds of years. The Khmers were suppressed even on their own land: What you know as South Vietnam today belonged to Cambodia before. For recent memory, the half Vietnamese, half American kids  in the 70 and 80's were sad stories. It was not because they were half American, it was because they were not 100% Vietnamese.

Anatta wrote:

The half Vietnamese, half American kids  in the 70 and 80's were sad stories. It was not because they were half American, it was because they were not 100% Vietnamese.

That was a travesty.  Yet another part of my countries history that brings shame upon us.

Here's a story from 2002 about the kids.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic … 15,00.html

You may be a beneficiary of the racism Bonester!

http://www.wordhcmc.com/home-2/49-insid … hites-only

That's a dated article, but it's still still happening today today...even on Expat.com!


"I'm looking for a native teacher [b](white-looking) for my center in Bac Ninh city.(45minutes from Hanoi)." 
Please contact Mr Khoa

Phone number 0932299213

https://www.expat.com/en/classified/asi … y-900.html

Anatta wrote:

Jaitch wrote:

As for the alleged racism against the Chinese you need to know your history.

Jaitch

I like your panache telling native people who not only know about it but also suffered greatly through the period in direct person, to go learn more about it like a schoolkid.

This was not directed at VN readers but rather the OP.

Anyway, the relationship with the big brother on the North has lasted over a 1000 years. Lately, it is a very sensitive subject and under strict censor from the government, so people don't know much about it unless you can read Vietnamese and have access to blocked blogs, so I will spare you all about it.

I guess you are referring to the border re-alignment and the guy who is sitting in jail reflecting upon it. Kind of hard to miss the border re-alingment at Langson from the miserable new VN border post. The ancient gate building on the CN side was good for hundreds of years.

The 'inappropriate' blogs are easily read on-line if you poke around. I use Google translate to get the jist and if it sounds interesting I have one of my VN employees translate it!

The Khmers were suppressed even on their own land: What you know as South Vietnam today belonged to Cambodia before. For recent memory, the half Vietnamese, half American kids  in the 70 and 80's were sad stories. It was not because they were half American, it was because they were not 100% Vietnamese.

The Kmer in the MeKong Delta are disliked as many of them are illegals from Cambodia. It might be their darker skin colour, dark skin inferring that they are 'peasants' or farmers.

I think the resentment about mixed parentage children of the American War era stems more from the inferences of relationships between the VN females (i.e. 'loose' morals) and the American males. Today's alleged VN conservatism is nothing to what it used to be. When you are really deep in to the VN community it is amazing just how much alike the VN are to other cultures.

Mixed parentage problems arise in many cultures, so it is not unique to VN.

There was/may be still a resentment against minority groups, particularly the H'mong and was actively pursued as a national policy for years. This really started during the fading days of the American War when the North Vietnamese had essentially won only the H'mong didn't get the message from the departing Americans and they kept on fighting for months.

The youth club movement can be eye opening to Foreigners and the number of 'Mrs. Robinson' relationships is quite high. The governments of all levels are putting a lot of pressure on this area of society.

Jaitch wrote:

I guess you are referring to the border re-alignment and the guy who is sitting in jail reflecting upon it. Kind of hard to miss the border re-alingment at Langson from the miserable new VN border post. The ancient gate building on the CN side was good for hundreds of years.

The re alignment is old story. There are so many guys sitting in jail, so I am not sure which guy you are referring to. It is not good to mention any name anyway. The newer issues are the Bauxite and the Chinese workers occupying the area, the six star flag, the islands, the rumors about who are aligned with the China in the top of the government and why and its consequence, the arrest of peaceful demonstrators against China in Saigon and HN and the consequent demonstration ban, the discussion about new demonstration law as result of it, the recent focus from the US on Asia and its consequence on the power balance, the role of India in the struggle,.. I can go on and on, but I have talked too much already.

Jaitch wrote:

The Kmer in the MeKong Delta are disliked as many of them are illegals from Cambodia. It might be their darker skin colour, dark skin inferring that they are 'peasants' or farmers.

Again, the relationship goes back hundreds of years so it is not because of their illegal status only. Many Europeans here are working 'illegally' yet you don't see that hatred. Actually, according to the official report announced a week ago (link in Vietnamese), the nations with highest illegal labors in Vietnam are actually Japan, Korea and China, no mentioning about the Khmers.

http://www.tienphong.vn/Kinh-Te/563833/ … m-tpp.html

Again as a sign of racism, the darker skin implies inferior race.

Jaitch wrote:

I think the resentment about mixed parentage children of the American War era stems more from the inferences of relationships between the VN females (i.e. 'loose' morals) and the American males. Today's alleged VN conservatism is nothing to what it used to be. When you are really deep in to the VN community it is amazing just how much alike the VN are to other cultures.
Mixed parentage problems arise in many cultures, so it is not unique to VN.

Agree, there is no doubt an element of moral indignity. However, the Vietnamese were no stranger to loose morals with kids with multi wives/mistresses, so it cannot explain the ostracization and total rejection on a systematic level those kids received growing up.

Anatta,

Which side of the road are you driving on now?  If you are on the right side, too much of this "comic" will land you in hot water, Bro.  Don't think that others are not reading this.  Easy... Easy, man!  There is more to life than just comedy, Iron Jay.

With love,
Howie

Wild_1 wrote:

Anatta,

Which side of the road are you driving on now?  If you are on the right side, too much of this junk will land you in hot water, Bro.  Easy... Easy, man!

With love,
Howie

I know man. I talked too much, man.

Maybe he just doesnt know any English; and he doesn't want to deal with any English-speaking customer. I know its a lame excuse, but at least thinking like this can lighten up ur mood somehow, I guess.

Trust me, its not racism. I was born in Vietnam, yet that kind of experience happened to me a lot.

Anatta wrote:

Jaitch wrote:

I guess you are referring to the border re-alignment and the guy who is sitting in jail reflecting upon it. Kind of hard to miss the border re-alingment at Langson from the miserable new VN border post. The ancient gate building on the CN side was good for hundreds of years.

Te fumiest thing I heard about the border was about Chinese farmers going out at night and moving the newly positioned border markers still further south so they acquired more VN territory.

Made no difference as they were positioned using Hi-Res GPS used by a HCMC mapping company located near the TSN airport.

Now the border arguments have moved to the VN / Cambodia border where VN is gaining territory. One of the main Cambodian protesters was sentenced to 25 in jail.

WideAwake wrote:

That was a travesty.  Yet another part of my countries history that brings shame upon us.

The biggest travesty was the America War in VietNam especially the bombing of Laos and the Plain of Jars.

The U.S. Government still hasn't learned from that debacle, if they had they wouldn't have been involved with Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya and looking for a fight with Iran or Syria.

Jaitch wrote:

Anatta wrote:

Jaitch wrote:

I guess you are referring to the border re-alignment and the guy who is sitting in jail reflecting upon it. Kind of hard to miss the border re-alingment at Langson from the miserable new VN border post. The ancient gate building on the CN side was good for hundreds of years.

Te fumiest thing I heard about the border was about Chinese farmers going out at night and moving the newly positioned border markers still further south so they acquired more VN territory.

Made no difference as they were positioned using Hi-Res GPS used by a HCMC mapping company located near the TSN airport.

Now the border arguments have moved to the VN / Cambodia border where VN is gaining territory. One of the main Cambodian protesters was sentenced to 25 in jail.

WideAwake wrote:

That was a travesty.  Yet another part of my countries history that brings shame upon us.

The biggest travesty was the America War in VietNam especially the bombing of Laos and the Plain of Jars.

The U.S. Government still hasn't learned from that debacle, if they had they wouldn't have been involved with Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya and looking for a fight with Iran or Syria.

Keep on topic.

Racism is a form of discrimination.  Since you like to stereotype and discriminate against Vietnamese males you stand to gain something here and perhaps become a better person.

I don't think America was alone in any of those events, BTW.  Seems like there were a lot of nations involved.

I also don't appreciate you taking my comments that acknowledge the faults of a previous generation and turning it into an opportunity to bash my country.

Mouth wide awake open.....you obviously forgot to bring along your medications from the "land of opportunity."

vnescape wrote:

Mouth wide awake open.....you obviously forgot to bring along your medications from the "land of opportunity."

I'm just fine here in the land of optimism!

If I do need meds I'll just borrow some of your's.  I'll only need 1/2 of what you normally take!

Well, one thing I have learned in my years spent in Vietnam is that the Vietnamese never admit guilt to anything.

Therefore there is no racism in Vietnam, there is no corruption, there is no robberies and no violence. In traffic accidents, the Vietnamese are always right, and the foreigners are ALWAYS wrong.

No such thing as customers rights.

I was presented with a bill for my drinks in a coffee shop 2 weeks ago, after the motorcycle parking guy, who was supposed to see to the customer's motorcycles not getting damaged, crashed into my custom bike at high speed, because he felt like fun riding around the parking lot. My bike damaged slightly, i had to pay for my drinks, a new seat and custom handle bars.

Xin loi, was what I got from the manager. The guy is still working there, laughing at me when I drive by.

Oh did I mention that I have to pay double price at my local pharmacy, due to my skin colour? What is that called if not racism? I wonder what the Vietnamese would say if I started charging them double in my shop in Europe?

zorglubb wrote:

... I was presented with a bill for my drinks in a coffee shop 2 weeks ago, after the motorcycle parking guy, who was supposed to see to the customer's motorcycles not getting damaged, crashed into my custom bike at high speed, because he felt like fun riding around the parking lot. My bike damaged slightly, i had to pay for my drinks, a new seat and custom handle bars.

Xin loi, was what I got from the manager. The guy is still working there, laughing at me when I drive by....

In your home country you would have likely called the cops.

So, why didn't you call the CGST - they are the best collection agency around here I know? I have always used them to collect damages, other than when I resort to the courts.

And they usually only want VND100,000 of your collection - which you add to the amount claimed in your calculations.

I don't talk to cops. And as I said, the Vietnamese is always right, so there is nothing for me to claim. The fact that a bike is customized (even though it was parked) would have been a perfectly reasonable ground to make my life miserable by impounding it and extracting money out of me.

So either way, the westerner lose.

The only thing that is soothing for me, is that when I pass that guy who crashed my bike and he grins, thinking that he is smarter than me, I know that he is not.

I still claim that the Vietnamese are very racist towards others, but yes, there is also a good portion of envy and fascination.

It's not really about racism but just discrimination and profiling. If the OP was a local Vietnamese person, he would not have received that sort of rude treatment.

I found there can be racism in many cultures that includes Vietnam. None towards me of course, but only when they see that I'm not a local. One specific example I do get when speaking to some (not all) Vietnamese locals is their stereotypes of African Americans.

Oh you live in the US. Is it a nice place to live? You know there's a lot of black people there.

When I was younger living in Los Angeles, my roommate (who is black) complained how always gets stares whenever he was out with his white wife.

To put it in a bit more perspective here, in HCMC, a new friend from England who is African America tells me he can't get a date because of his skin color.

Hi,

Please note that a few off topic posts have been removed from the thread.

Thanks
Armand

Armand wrote:

Hi,

Please note that a few off topic posts have been removed from the thread.

Thanks
Armand

Yeah, what a shame.

Hello hello, everyone don't get carried away. For want of logic, Bonesy TOOK OFF his shoes and walked barefooted into a shop! Where the heck someone told you that was POLITE should get his head scanned! You are not entering a place of worship or some religious place! If I was the shop owner I would throw you OUT too! Gee! Foreigner and with such manners!!! Local culture, friend, local culture... My 2 cts worth..

Interesting answers/comments, good to read some.
Anyway, from my point of view there s a problem with the category called "racism". Originally this term does not exist in the Asian culture, because its theory is a typically Euro-Atlantic invention of human sciences.
Here people just simply do not like some others. Unfortunately the brown and black skin color is not so popular among them (and also check the Japanese), so it is still really difficult sometimes to be an Afro-American here. That sucks, but nobody speaks about it.

The post's second layer is more interesting for me.
Guys, can't you find guitars more expensive than in Hanoi?
In my opinion they are more expensive and I m not satisfied with the quality of most of the handmade Vnese guitars.
I rather choose a Chines clone than a handmade Vnese one. And, hehe, actually I have 3 nice Chinese guitars. 

Hopefully going back to SG I m looking for some guitar mates to play some stuff.

Vietnam for Vietnamese, next time bring a Viet friend understand your needs to deal with them.

I was thinking the same thing too. Racism seems to be a Western thing though it always exist in every culture/country if you think from a western perspective otherwise if you don't look local they'll be curious and form their opinions from either the good or bad lots.

Last September I bought a guitar at Thanh Musical Instruments. Was easy to bring it back into Canada but I stopped over at my mom's place. Couldn't bring the guitar back to my city via local plane go figure lol. Man that place was packed hard to test out the guitar with so many different sounds but yeah if I ever get the chance to go back Vietnam maybe we can jam sometime.

Ymel wrote:

Interesting answers/comments, good to read some.
Anyway, from my point of view there s a problem with the category called "racism". Originally this term does not exist in the Asian culture, because its theory is a typically Euro-Atlantic invention of human sciences.
Here people just simply do not like some others. Unfortunately the brown and black skin color is not so popular among them (and also check the Japanese), so it is still really difficult sometimes to be an Afro-American here. That sucks, but nobody speaks about it.

The post's second layer is more interesting for me.
Guys, can't you find guitars more expensive than in Hanoi?
In my opinion they are more expensive and I m not satisfied with the quality of most of the handmade Vnese guitars.
I rather choose a Chines clone than a handmade Vnese one. And, hehe, actually I have 3 nice Chinese guitars. 

Hopefully going back to SG I m looking for some guitar mates to play some stuff.

Seniordogsg46 wrote:

Hello hello, everyone don't get carried away. For want of logic, Bonesy TOOK OFF his shoes and walked barefooted into a shop! Where the heck someone told you that was POLITE should get his head scanned! You are not entering a place of worship or some religious place! If I was the shop owner I would throw you OUT too! Gee! Foreigner and with such manners!!! Local culture, friend, local culture... My 2 cts worth..

Guessing you have lived in Vietnam for some time I'm very surprised you haven't been into a local shop and been asked to take off your shoes.

It's not a question of it being a religious place. A lot of families operate business from their home, and like you should enter a Vietnamese home it IS polite to take off your shoes.

I have seen foreigners in the past ushered out of buildings for this reason and have heard of similar experiences from friends too.

I know a PUBLIC TOILET, on the road to Phan Thiet, where you are required to remove your shoes and put their filthy soft flip-flops on so you can use the urinals.

I would hate to think what precautions they insist on taking should you want to exercise Option 2 (defecation).

If you are asked to remove your shoes to enter a business premises you, and I, always have to option to do business elsewhere.

I always wear laced shoes (for safety) and I usually use a shoe horn to put them on to preserve the shape (rather than forcing my heels in to the shoe). I do not carry the shoe horn with me unless I am travelling to other, out of city, destinations.

There was one occasion where the owner actually blocked me, as I stood about 3 metres from his entrance, when I wanted to see the quality of his work. He is one of the best motorcycle painters in the city.

The reason he stopped me was because he had some very special looking parts hanging, drying in his workshop. Even though we couldn't communicate verbally, I understood his action and, now, we are well acquainted.

I think K Nguyen is right on the money. Some times they can't be bothered if we don't speak the language. A sale is not a priority unlike most parts of Asia..

Uh, I ve also met some shopes, owners are proud and if they dont want, they dont serve you, thats all. But unfriendly service can have disadvantage, too..

Bonesy, was it the same look you get if your white walking around some parts of London ?? I have been in HCMC for over a year and a half and never experianced any racism, i feel more comfortable here walking around with my Vietnamese gf then i would in Australia. Just forget the incident and enjoy the women and weather, it sure beats England right ?? lol

sghsaigon wrote:

Bonesy, was it the same look you get if your white walking around some parts of London ??

lol, whilst I can appreciate and agree with this it wasn't just a look. This was flat out refusal to even let me in his shop!

I have now been in Vietnam for over a year and can say this has been an isolated incident. I love the country and the people (well, most of them anyway).

Holy crap...he lives!  I was just wondering if you still around.

Again, you don't know the guys situation.  I've had it happen before and got mad, but I can't remember the last time.  If it were to happen today I would set my jaw, thank them and leave.  Why let it bother you beyond that point?  He forgot about you the second you were out of his sight.

Teacher Mark wrote:

Holy crap...he lives!  I was just wondering if you still around.

Again, you don't know the guys situation.  I've had it happen before and got mad, but I can't remember the last time.  If it were to happen today I would set my jaw, thank them and leave.  Why let it bother you beyond that point?  He forgot about you the second you were out of his sight.

Haha sorry I haven't shown my face much, I'm going to make a bigger effort now!

Sound advice Teacher Mark, forgive and forget ey!

First time I experienced racism was when I came to Vietnam and Laos. But not from the Vietnamese or Laotians - rather from the white tourists.

In Luang Prabang, I went to a touristic spot and several older European women clearly had looked like "what is this Asian doing here?" look on their face. They looked at me and my friend with a distasteful expression. We weren't badly dressed, filthy or smelly.. and there were other tourists around so I can't think of any other reason why our presence would bother them.

In Vietnam, I travelled on the sleeper bus, which most backpackers took. None of them seemed to really respond when I tried to make conversation, some of the people even smirked to their friend whom I tried to talk to. But they easily made friends with one another.

Later in that journey, I paired up with a German guy to travel. In one of our travels, I got into an argument with a Vietnamese guy in a local bus. Most of the "sleeper bus" tourists were there too. None of them made a sound. A few minutes later my German friend came up and joined the argument. Suddenly a few of the other tourists came to HIS defence. I was very disappointed with this experience and always think how ironic it is when a European or American says "but that's racist!"

However, it really opened my eyes to how other people would feel when treated like that.. in my country when middle class people treat the lower income group - the roadsweepers, the maids etc. I learned from that experience.

So don't take it too hard - it's just part of life. There are good people and great experiences too, despite going through the negative ones.

Common guys, I have been waiting for the time when you will stop your moaning and groaning.  Vietnam is not for all  of you.  Vietnam welcomes none of you.  You must jump through loops to get here.  So, if you went through that process, what are you bitching about???  Don't come here, if shit is so bad...  Need I say more???  If you are here, a wiseman once said, "just roll with the punches."

Come on Howie, backpackers are kosher for bitchin about...