Will Kiev benefit from EURO 2012?

hello there, i will be coming to kiev for the euro 2012 tournament, im having dificuly in getting through to the PROLISOK CAMPING SITE AND HOTEL COMPLEX, i am trying to book the campsite but can get no information on how to do it.
also on reading travellers blogs there seems to be  a problem with the police fining people who drive cars and vans, and charging very high fines for speeding, they seem to be charged cash on the spot with no receipt. i f you could answer my questions that would be great. cheers martin.

Hi Martin

Having performed a simple search in Google, I can help you))
Here is the hyperlink to the Prolisok website in English -
prolisok.kiev.ua/spip.php?rubrique56
Or call (38 044) 451-80-38, 451-90-93 - Receptionist or even by ICQ.
As for traveller blogs, I am not sure, whether these problems are real or exaggerated.
As for speeding, if you exceed the limit by 20 kph, you pay 255-340 UAH fine which is 32-42 US dollars. I am not sure, if it is a big money for you, but now you know the range.
They will give you a receipt for the fine you pay, because if they don't it is an offence and they will be punished by law for that. The situation, when you are not given the receipt and pay cash may occur only if you offer them to do so. Otherwise they don't behave this way.
And I am wondering, which country you are from. Isn't it easier to rent an apartment or book a hotel room?

Best regards,
Yuriy

Hi Yuriy, thanks for your reply,i have been on the prolisok campsite website but you can only book the hotel via the internet, there is no way of booking the campsite, we are coming from england in a motorhome and need an electric supply and atap for filling water tanks.Nobody at the prolisok can speak good enough english for me to make a reservation for the camping.
On travellers blogs a few people seem to have come across unscrupulous police men who demands euros or dollars more than usual fines and if you dont pay up they hold you for many hours.
this has been when no speeding offence has been done.
maybe like you say people are making things out to be worse than they are. could you give me an idea of prices of beer, bread and meals in general please as we havent travelled this far to eastern europe before.
thank you once again for your help it is really appreciated
benny.

Hi Benny,
OK, I can call them by phone and explain your inquiry After that I will write back to you to this site, because I don't have your email or any other contact data. I think there are still people with poor English here, but Ukraine doesn't seem to be the only such country  - when I was in Spain, people in the streets also had little understanding of my English

As for coming across traffic police, I think those guys simply had bad luck, but in fact if you are stopped for no reason, you can refuse to pay anything and call the police department (or demand from them to meet with their boss) - those guys on the roads don't have that much power, so they will let you go. And even if you were caught for speeding, you can refuse to pay the fine and a local court will make their decision on thic case. It means you don't pay money on the road to nobody, but they will send you the court decision and the information on how to pay the fine by mail.
But in general these cases are very rare - there is nothing to worry about.

Regarding prices, here they are:
- beer costs from 1-1.5 US dollar per bottle for local beer (glass bottle, 0.5 l) to 2-3 dollars for German and other imported beer (also 0.5 l). They also sell beer in plastic bottles and it is cheaper - 1 l for 1.25-1.5 US dollars
- bread - alof of a white/dark bread (700-750 g)costs 0.50-0.75 US dollars.
- a pizza costs here 8.5 US dollars and more - depending on the size etc. If you go to some sushi bar, you can pay aout 12 US dollars and more for 2 kinds of rolls.
- If you go to a cafe, everything is more expensive, including beer, bread, salads etc. - by about 50%.
- As for meat&sausages, it greatly varies, but a good dry sausage would cost you 12 US dollars and more (per kilo). If you would like to learn the price for anything else, please let me know.
So food & drinks are chepar here than in Europe, but you have to buy them in the supermarket. Have a good day!

Best regards,
Yuriy

Hi Benny,

Regarding your booking, please write to Natalya, whose email is prolisok_@ukr.net.
I have just talked to her over the phone and she has promised to help you. Looks like her knowledge of English is enough to arrange your booking. If you have any other questions or problems, I will be glad to help you with that

Best regards,
Yuriy

Hi there yuri, thank you so much for your help in these questions that i asked, it really is appreciated. With out your help and kindness we would be a further behind with our preparations for our trip to the ukraine.I have a couple more questions if you dont mind, how much would it cost for a taxi to donetsk from kiev?
is there a fast train to donetsk that can get from kiev to donetsk in say 7 hours or are they overnight trains?
Is it exspensive to hire a car in kiev and how much is fuel.

When we visited northern portugal, we found that very few people spoke any english, but we got by with pencil and paper drawing things and describing in general, most people were very good and helped were they could, im sure ukraine will be similar. Are the people of ukraine excited about holding a large tournament in there country? In 1996 it was in england and it was fantastic to see all the other countries fans in there colours supporting there nation. It was good in Portugal as well a real party atmosphere. thank you once again for your help.
HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR YURI

CHEERS BENNY

Oh there was one more thing, do most people trade in the local currency or in dollars.
CHEERS BENNY

Hi Benny,

They use the local currency called hrivna. Currently 1 USD is equal to 8 hrivnas (code UAH) and this currency is weak compared to dollar. Therefore many people prefer to quote prices in dollars, especially for apartments. However, officially all payments are made in hrivnas.

Cheers,
Yuriy

Hi again Benny,

First of all, thank you very much for your New Year greetings, I appreciate that - it is great to hear about that from far away UK And as for your previous message, here's some information.
1. The distance between Kiev and Donetsk is 730 km, I doubt that the price of any taxi to Kiev would be affordable for you Ukraine is a large country and so we mostly travel around by trains. There are also airplanes, but ticket prices are much higher.
2. At present you can buy a ticket for 15 USD in a second class train carriage (the cheapest option) and if you depart from Kiev at 19:25, you will get to Donetsk at 7:10. It is indeed fast for such distance, but they are going to introduce even faster trains especially for EURO 2012.
Officials say that starting from 15th May 6 high-speed Hyundai trains will move between Kiev, Donetsk, Lviv and Kharkov especially for the guests of EURO 2012. So in this train you will be able to reach Kiev from Donetsk in 5.5 hours which is almost fantastic I don't know the ticket prices yet, but they will announce them in April-May. These Hyundai trains will be day trains, not overninght ones.

3. As for hiring a car, I simply don't know about that. Most car hire companies like AVIS already offer car hire here in Ukraine, but I doubt the prices are cheap. Currently 1 litre of A95 fuel costs 10.30 - 10.40 hrivnas which is 1.29 - 1.3 dollars.

Hi again,

And regarding people in Ukraine, they are friendly indeed and will help you as much, as they can. They may even speak better English than Portugese, so you will be able to learn the things around))
Most people are proud to host the EURO championship, but there are also those who say that this tournament will not change anything in their own lifes. Anyway, we can already see improvements in the 4 Ukrainian cities: new airports, railway stations, hotels, stadiums and roads - quite a lot of use I would say. And of course for those who speak English, including me it will be a great speech practise. So you are welcome here

Best regrds,
Yuriy

hello again yuriy, thanks for your additional information, i have emailed natalya at the prolisok but i am awaiting a reply.
There will be 4 of us travelling to kiev and we dont know what time we will arrive, if we are held up at the borders of germany/poland and poland/ukraine we may have to  carhire/taxi to donetsk so we are there for the game. If the trains are fully booked or we arrive late to kiev we will have to pay the premium price to get there. the train to donetsk would be ideal, but if we cant make it plan B will be car hire or taxi, if you could give me an idea of the price of each of these it would be great thanks.

To give you a rough idea in the past at portugal myself and 2 other englishmen paid 130 euros for a taxi to travel back from a england game because the trains had stopped running at 11 o clock
ane we arrived at the station at midnight. Between the the three of us we paid 400euros for a ticket to watch england play switzerland in the 2004 euros. We usually get to the games whatever the cost as it is our holiday and have saved for 2 years to support our country. we are very passionate about our football and also love to visit countries that are sometimes overlooked as a tourist place. my friend who is coming to the ukraine with me visited Belarus with England in qualification and said it had the most beautiful architechture and well kept streets and gardens, very much cleaner and fresh than london.
discovering such places is very exciting.
In kiev is there a lot of pubs ( beer drinking houses) or is the culture more towards restraunt type drinking.

many thanks for your help
BENNY

Hi Benny,

It seems you've got a good company for a visit to Ukraine Natalya will reply to you soon, I believe. If not, I will call her again.
As for arrival time, I would suggest that you reserve some time to come to Ukraine (a couple of days). Of course, delays are possible and Ukraine is quite large. I think you will still be in time for all matches.
Regarding train booking, there is always an alternative - buses. We have a very good bus communication between cities, so you will reach Donestk in time for sure. Still, I can't imagine the situation, when all trains are booked, because from Kiev there are 3-4 trains to Donetsk and there will be also new fast trains from May.
As for taxi, it is a definitely crazy idea. Perhaps, it would cost 100-200 euro here, but considering you are foreigners, a taxi driver might ask even more. They are greedy indeed and the price will depend on bargaining. I think it will be more clever for you to travel by bus, if trains are fully booked (which I seriously doubt). Buses are never fully booked.
It's great that you and your friends have so supportive and energetic fan spirit, I'm sure you will enjoy staying here. Streets in Kiev are less clean than in Belarus, but the centre is still bery tidy and beautiful. Besides, we have a big river here called Dnieper, so you can also swim in it Water will be warm enough during EURO 2012. And there are different kinds of architecture here, including colourful Orthodox churches, Soviet-era buildings, an old quarter that looks as in Russian imperial times (1-2-storey buildings) and even a big catholic cathedral in Gothic style.
As for drinking, local people drink a lot Not like in the North of Russia or Finland, but still a lot. So you can buy drinks in the shops or go to bups. I know of at least 3 Irish pubs in Kiev and Donetsk might also have some. There might be also English pubs, I haven't checked it yet.
So, since you are going that far you should better plan your trip for a longer time, because there is much to see here You can even go to the seaside and swim in Black Sea - I can send you some pictures from there.

Best regards,
Yuriy

You can try kiev-arenda.info/en as you will pay per apartment and not per person as any hotel would charge

Hi Northcrest,

I was surprised to learn that you are staying in Moscow. Since you have posted an advice here, you might have also visited Kiev.
What do you think about Kiev and is your life in Moscow easy or difficult in any way?

Best regards,
Yuriy

Hi to Benny from Hull, will pm you with a more realistic view of driving and living in Ukraine, I get the impression that some people in kiev have their head in the clouds.

Hi Watchthatman,

You could have pmed him without posting your reply here. Looks like your impressions from Ukraine and Chornomorsk are not positive and you want to share your disappointment with others, whereas everyone's impression depends on their efforts and luck to a serious extent. They may not be disappointed at all.

Regards

Not at all, I returned home to the U.K after 6 years here or so and then decided to come back to Crimea, I am more than happy with my quiet comfortable life here, I just felt that you were giving a somewhat biased view of peoples aspirations and reactions to the whole euro thing. Village life as you know is very different. For a balanced view of Ukraine google people first ua, and then tell me why some 38% of the country are officially below the poverty line and many people are living om $3 a day. None of this affects me I have a U.K. based business and pension from the military in the U.K. as well. I was just a little shocked at your understanding of fair prices for hospitals, I have just attended the funeral of a woman who died at 59 from cancer because she could not afford the treatment to even try and get well.

You are right about poverty, even common people, not retired ones may not have enough money for living, because they don't have a decent salary, but there is no sense in discussing social standards here, as they will not change in the near future.
So, in fact there are two countries: the first on is for visitors with service, entertainment and cultural programme and the second one is for a number local people, whose life is not very happy and will not change after EURO. But let's think: won't it be the same in Russia in 2018 when they will host the World Cup? Absolutelty the same picture: Moscow and some big cities will benefit from tourists and some smaller villages and towns will live their life in poverty as before.
And if the story is the same, why should we think about economic matters that cannot be changed? Only government can do something to it, but I doubt they will. Anyway, they will hold the footbal championship at a decent level, because it is about doing business.

And particularly about Ukrainian prices for medical care I stil find them quite affordable, if it is not about some serious operation. When I lived in Finland, I was afraid even to go to the doctor for consultations, if I had to. Luckily, during one year of my stay there I didn't need that, but prices in that country are much higher for everything, including medical care.
About 10-20 years ago doctors earned here less than many other categories of skilled workers, because Soviet medical care was free of charge and subsidied by the government. This situation has changed and medical care tends to become more and more private. The problem is not in prices for hospitals, but in the government that can't help its citizens to get enough money for medical treatment which is sad.
However, prices for medical care here are still lower than in France, Germany or the UK and since you have your own business and pension, there is nothing to worry about.

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I don't really know if it will... but what i know Ukraine is a beautiful country, despite to the spreading of horror stories... If you haven't travel much to Ukraine and if you never went to Ukraine yes, you will really most likely to believe to the horror stories... I don't know why so much people doesn't have any business aside from sitting and humiliating others just to make fun or kinda jealous or what? I honestly can't understand this, but as a Filipina I love Ukraine more than my own country,I don't like pretentious and liar people, I hate my corrupt government.

Ukraine known as poor and corrupt country, but I don't think so! Especially these years I can compare my country and Ukraine; I am happy with my life in Ukraine, especially we have similarities of how we handled guest, very warm, hospitable and friendly; except most of filipino's high pride and too brag. I am not happy in my home country. I can't forget how they told me that Ukraine is very corrupt and people are criminals,robbers, neighborhood stealing neighborhood's roof and many more, which is lies...

For many years of coming back and forth and living in Ukraine I haven't heard my neighbor to steal our neighbor,In some regions Ukrainians left their houses in the village for many years and they returned that house still complete and furniture still there, in my country just an hour you left the house a robbers, criminals already in the fence especially at night,and not safe to walk at night especially in the main city of my country, Unlike in Ukraine I walked safe, no stabbing, no pick-pocket, and a number of beggar that you could just count by your hands as simply as 1, 2 ,3. I am happy to share my money in the pocket with the beggar I met, because they wishes me more luck
Ukrainians are not racist I noticed it, I am not as white as them but they made me feel just like them.They are often quiet and busy, they will talk if you also talk to them and smile if you smile to them.In my opinion, they are the humblest people I met, in my country we have lots of foreigners and I found them too brag, snob and always have a loud talk,this is the country I noticed people treating each other equally especially at work, you don't have to bow down, to make a coffee or to impress your manager so much, all you have to do just... do your work properly and it is enough to impress them.

While in my country every morning you have to line up,all of you has to stand just to greet your manager " hello good morning" you have even to make coffee of your boss, and if you forgotten to address them "Sir/ Madam" you'll be kick out from the job.

Prices in Ukraine is fine for me, although it is a lot expensive than in my home country, but anyway the quality is very reliable. We have cheaper commodities, but things usually sucks! flooded of China products,unlike in Ukraine most I could use and buy at least from Europe zones and quality is very good.

Well, in Kyiv I don't think so that people living in Kyiv are poor, just like my husband he's regular or an ordinary Ukrainian but we actually living fine, we could travel in other foreign countries many times a year, we eat good, we live good, our kids is fine we could afford International school, we living safe in Ukraine,the place is peaceful,we could live even in hotel for months if bored at home and my husband have a decent work with a decent pay, so I think this is just enough to be happy.

I don't believe in horror stories of what other says about Ukraine because to count I am in Ukraine since 2002 what year now 2012? There's no such crime or dictator lol, no one ever dictates me or treat me like a piece of garbage.
If I did listened to what others say about Ukraine I probably would regret it to the rest of my life,because I would not be able to find my most loving, caring, responsible Ukrainian man and he gave me beautiful kids that I am so proud so far, because I would say my Ukrainian kids are genius.

People say be very careful driving in Ukraine because of Police ask fine, stopping you looks for passport and ask money?!?

I am wondering why no one ever stop me in Ukraine, obviously I am not as white as Ukrainian,no one ask me where's my passport. Police stared at me and just smile with a wink murmuring saying I'm cute and sexy ..lol

We often drive around in Kyiv Ukraine and to other regions and cities in Ukraine, but honestly no one try to catch us, only one thing I know, we don't violate rules, we never provoke the Policeman.

As long as you drive safely, obey the traffic sign, don't drive over the speed limit, and don't park to the place which is not allowed. Show respect,and they pay you respect. No police will come to catch you. This police are over night on the road, sometimes under the heavy snow they are still there just to watch and measure the speed of every vehicles that driving like crazy, so if you are not following the sign board of speed limit you will be likely to get catch, because you are putting your life in danger as well as others.
Most likely I saw violating traffic sign, Polish, parking the car even in the curved, and produced traffic, left the car in the middle of the road, but if it is Ukrainian doing that...police will bring crane and drag your car away ) how i know it was from Poland? because the placard  is from Poland.

So people, if you come to Ukraine it is simple, respect and obey the traffic sign, so that you will not have any trouble.

Taxi fare?  From Borispol Airport to Kiev it is from 30 to 50 dollars. Usually I pay 40 USD from Borispol to Kyiv.

Having trouble with the language? Ukrainian will help you as much as they can, do a sign language, body gestures, drawing or even word for word english. But some Ukrainian could speak English especially those living in Kyiv, they are just quiet but if they feel that you are easy to be with they will be very open to you too.

The village life in Ukraine is very different compared to the cities, most villagers are limited in cash, they have crops, animals and they have lower demands of things. But most in the villages are just old people,just like the relatives of my husband each of them have monthly pension, the lowest pension they gave $150 to the non government worker that worked for a few years, and $300 to a government worker served for many years and some have $500 to the one served in military.
The prices in the villages a lot cheaper to compare to the city,and these old villagers love farming, taking care of animals and love to sell fruits and vegetables in the market.
So they really live fine even though they are limited of cash,they don't need fancy things in the village, they have complete appliances, they pay a little for electric bills. They don't have debts.Oldies live in the village and left their apartment in the cities for rent.

While young man and woman would not want to live in the village because too bored to be in the village, so they come to the City for work and Study.In Ukraine you will have an opportunities to be able to live and support yourself without the support of parents, they have work available for non graduates,non graduates look for job in the big city,and right after they got the job they enrolled and study by correspondence. They support themselves, have decent work,and decent salary.After few years they obtained their masters degree.
In my country big numbers of high unemployment rates and high poverty rates, because it is very difficult to study and work at the same time. We have to be present at school from Monday up to Saturday whole day of class, few days absent automatically kicked you out of school. So, if you are financially not capable to fund your studies, you have to quit, work and save again and next time enroll and  study, this is very difficult, and if you are under graduate you are unlikely to get decent job. In Philippines you have to be at least Bachelors degree to have a work as a gasoline boy, just to refill gas of customer you need bachelors degree. Our Bachelors degree ended as a "sales clerk" if you are past 32 yrs. old it is impossible that company will hire you  for work. Our government is a lot corrupt compare to Ukraine, look we even don't  have battle defense, just our leaders busy to put money in their pockets not improving our economy and no projects, unlike Ukraine known as poor but they have better economy and new infrastructures.Places are beautiful and what it adds more because of the humble, honest and loyal Ukrainians. I don't believe in horror story about Ukraine because I never had any problem in this country and their people.

charm2011 wrote:

I don't really know if it will... but what i know Ukraine is a beautiful country, despite to the spreading of horror stories... If you haven't travel much to Ukraine and if you never went to Ukraine yes, you will really most likely to believe to the horror stories... I don't know why so much people doesn't have any business aside from sitting and humiliating others just to make fun or kinda jealous or what? I honestly can't understand this, but as a Filipina I love Ukraine more than my own country,I don't like pretentious and liar people, I hate my corrupt government.

Ukraine known as poor and corrupt country, but I don't think so! Especially these years I can compare my country and Ukraine; I am happy with my life in Ukraine, especially we have similarities of how we handled guest, very warm, hospitable and friendly; except most of filipino's high pride and too brag. I am not happy in my home country. I can't forget how they told me that Ukraine is very corrupt and people are criminals,robbers, neighborhood stealing neighborhood's roof and many more, which is lies...

For many years of coming back and forth and living in Ukraine I haven't heard my neighbor to steal our neighbor,In some regions Ukrainians left their houses in the village for many years and they returned that house still complete and furniture still there, in my country just an hour you left the house a robbers, criminals already in the fence especially at night,and not safe to walk at night especially in the main city of my country, Unlike in Ukraine I walked safe, no stabbing, no pick-pocket, and a number of beggar that you could just count by your hands as simply as 1, 2 ,3. I am happy to share my money in the pocket with the beggar I met, because they wishes me more luck
Ukrainians are not racist I noticed it, I am not as white as them but they made me feel just like them.They are often quiet and busy, they will talk if you also talk to them and smile if you smile to them.In my opinion, they are the humblest people I met, in my country we have lots of foreigners and I found them too brag, snob and always have a loud talk,this is the country I noticed people treating each other equally especially at work, you don't have to bow down, to make a coffee or to impress your manager so much, all you have to do just... do your work properly and it is enough to impress them.

While in my country every morning you have to line up,all of you has to stand just to greet your manager " hello good morning" you have even to make coffee of your boss, and if you forgotten to address them "Sir/ Madam" you'll be kick out from the job.

Prices in Ukraine is fine for me, although it is a lot expensive than in my home country, but anyway the quality is very reliable. We have cheaper commodities, but things usually sucks! flooded of China products,unlike in Ukraine most I could use and buy at least from Europe zones and quality is very good.

Well, in Kyiv I don't think so that people living in Kyiv are poor, just like my husband he's regular or an ordinary Ukrainian but we actually living fine, we could travel in other foreign countries many times a year, we eat good, we live good, our kids is fine we could afford International school, we living safe in Ukraine,the place is peaceful,we could live even in hotel for months if bored at home and my husband have a decent work with a decent pay, so I think this is just enough to be happy.

I don't believe in horror stories of what other says about Ukraine because to count I am in Ukraine since 2002 what year now 2012? There's no such crime or dictator lol, no one ever dictates me or treat me like a piece of garbage.
If I did listened to what others say about Ukraine I probably would regret it to the rest of my life,because I would not be able to find my most loving, caring, responsible Ukrainian man and he gave me beautiful kids that I am so proud so far, because I would say my Ukrainian kids are genius.

People say be very careful driving in Ukraine because of Police ask fine, stopping you looks for passport and ask money?!?

I am wondering why no one ever stop me in Ukraine, obviously I am not as white as Ukrainian,no one ask me where's my passport. Police stared at me and just smile with a wink murmuring saying I'm cute and sexy ..lol

We often drive around in Kyiv Ukraine and to other regions and cities in Ukraine, but honestly no one try to catch us, only one thing I know, we don't violate rules, we never provoke the Policeman.

As long as you drive safely, obey the traffic sign, don't drive over the speed limit, and don't park to the place which is not allowed. Show respect,and they pay you respect. No police will come to catch you. This police are over night on the road, sometimes under the heavy snow they are still there just to watch and measure the speed of every vehicles that driving like crazy, so if you are not following the sign board of speed limit you will be likely to get catch, because you are putting your life in danger as well as others.
Most likely I saw violating traffic sign, Polish, parking the car even in the curved, and produced traffic, left the car in the middle of the road, but if it is Ukrainian doing that...police will bring crane and drag your car away ) how i know it was from Poland? because the placard  is from Poland.

So people, if you come to Ukraine it is simple, respect and obey the traffic sign, so that you will not have any trouble.

Taxi fare?  From Borispol Airport to Kiev it is from 30 to 50 dollars. Usually I pay 40 USD from Borispol to Kyiv.

Having trouble with the language? Ukrainian will help you as much as they can, do a sign language, body gestures, drawing or even word for word english. But some Ukrainian could speak English especially those living in Kyiv, they are just quiet but if they feel that you are easy to be with they will be very open to you too.

The village life in Ukraine is very different compared to the cities, most villagers are limited in cash, they have crops, animals and they have lower demands of things. But most in the villages are just old people,just like the relatives of my husband each of them have monthly pension, the lowest pension they gave $150 to the non government worker that worked for a few years, and $300 to a government worker served for many years and some have $500 to the one served in military.
The prices in the villages a lot cheaper to compare to the city,and these old villagers love farming, taking care of animals and love to sell fruits and vegetables in the market.
So they really live fine even though they are limited of cash,they don't need fancy things in the village, they have complete appliances, they pay a little for electric bills. They don't have debts.Oldies live in the village and left their apartment in the cities for rent.

While young man and woman would not want to live in the village because too bored to be in the village, so they come to the City for work and Study.In Ukraine you will have an opportunities to be able to live and support yourself without the support of parents, they have work available for non graduates,non graduates look for job in the big city,and right after they got the job they enrolled and study by correspondence. They support themselves, have decent work,and decent salary.After few years they obtained their masters degree.
In my country big numbers of high unemployment rates and high poverty rates, because it is very difficult to study and work at the same time. We have to be present at school from Monday up to Saturday whole day of class, few days absent automatically kicked you out of school. So, if you are financially not capable to fund your studies, you have to quit, work and save again and next time enroll and  study, this is very difficult, and if you are under graduate you are unlikely to get decent job. In Philippines you have to be at least Bachelors degree to have a work as a gasoline boy, just to refill gas of customer you need bachelors degree. Our Bachelors degree ended as a "sales clerk" if you are past 32 yrs. old it is impossible that company will hire you  for work. Our government is a lot corrupt compare to Ukraine, look we even don't  have battle defense, just our leaders busy to put money in their pockets not improving our economy and no projects, unlike Ukraine known as poor but they have better economy and new infrastructures.Places are beautiful and what it adds more because of the humble, honest and loyal Ukrainians. I don't believe in horror story about Ukraine because I never had any problem in this country and their people.

Well, what I would say about your question as to why people put Ukraine down so often due to curruption and low standard of living is this - they compare it not to Filipines, but the rest of Europe or at least Central and Eastern Europe.  If you do the same you will see  that it is a comparison that simply can not be made in Ukraine's favor.  I  could go on and on anot problems in the country that you are unlikly to encounter in such number in other of the named above places. Instead I will simply suggest going to Numbeo.com and doing a comparison there yourself, say a comparison between the capitals of Ukraine  and Poland (the country's closest neighbor to the west) you can compare the prices and income levels in two capitals Kiev and Warsaw for example) and you will see what I mean.

I am a Ukrainian myself and it pains me that the above mentioned comparison can never be made in my country's favor. As for Filipines, it is a well known fact that the country is very corrupt, with high levels of powerty, unemployment and low standard of living. I also know that many Pakistanis find our  country "better", but beter than what...? I hope you see my point.

PS. As for the Europe 2012 Football Championship itself my guess is that yes the competition wii take place at the acceptable level, but no the country or the hosting cities will not benifit from it the way Barcelona and Spain have after the 1990 Olympics that took place there (when the city  of Barcelona was virtually put on the map and became one of the most desirable places to live in the world)

Why how much the salary in Warsaw programmers? a month? My husband earned more than  6 thousand dollars a month in Ukraine when he was a programmer. In Warsaw husband worked and paid $600 a month. I can compare it, to United States of America, lots of poor and people living without house, do you know that? I went to Poland too  I saw poverty in Poland, don't you know I traveled even in Germany? so I can really compare not just in my homeland.Faces of poverty is everywhere... and you should not be too sad because I assure you, Ukraine is not bad place to live, you are too much poisoned of these people making horror stories.

In Russia I have relatives in Russia, I also have good friend in Russia that works in government, she have rank but she so proud of her maximum $500 earnings a month. Which is nothing and with that amount I couldn't survive even in my own country.

Italy, I have sister in -law in Italy the life in Italy is very difficult, lots of jobless,most of my countrymen living there like a "sardines" In one small room 10 to 20 people even more sometimes, living in one small room of a dorm, when one escape to job one person will sleep to the bed, and when she prepare to work another one arrive and use the bed to sleep.Some bachelors degree just work in bag factory in Italy.
Senior developer in Italy earned  $37,645 a year, While programmer in Kyiv earned average of more than $42,000 a year.
So, why should Ukrainian programmers would go to Italy? do you know in Poland,Warsaw?Programmers cannot earned more than $8,000 a year. But what impressive with Ukrainians they are non stop, trying and trying so hard to be better, they are not tired of learning so I won't be surprise if one day the country of Ukraine become economically better that's because of the qualities and characteristics of Ukrainians. Anyway it is up to you I have my own opinion and observations to the people and the country of Ukraine, believe on the horror stories of what other tells you... maybe it helps you who knows? I only shared my experienced that's it! I don't try to offend others. If it hurts them, well .. sorry what to do that's what my experience.

You want me also to detail you about my experience in Canada? Australia? Puerto Rico? I can compare Ukraine, try to go to Canada see the homeless, see how many people involve in sex trafficking at young age, America? don't you know more than 42.3 million Americans without food right now? no house to live, no job no money do you know that? Ukraine? people has wide land to farm and they could live for a year through farming. My Ukrainian husband often in USA so he know the dark side of USA  behind that popularity.

Germany? you think all road in Germany are really so beautiful?People there as not as hard working like Ukrainians.They are even lazy to study.
Poland? most of road there has patches and pits, most roads even not that wide, sure I can compare prices in Warsaw cheaper than in Ukraine. Salary? average salary of Warsaw programmers is 8 thousand dollars a year, compare Ukraine? Programmers served in government earned not less than $1000 a month, private companies pay average $3000 to $4000 a month.

and that site you gave me it is pretty obvious it is jerk, see the name of site? "numb" numbeo? that's jerk.And that is not the reason that they always put your country so down, I know one thing they are "racist"

America? if you are black skin, browned skin, not as fluent as they they will make fun of your accent, you will suffer a lot being bully by them, everywhere has criminal, I have family in USA so don't tell me about what the life in America, some Americans even already jumped out of the country because of the government too much tax and regular Americans cannot longer live with their salary.
Americans some of them just earn  $1200 a month, in other side of USA most even live in $300 a month and some place in USA looks like more than a third world. Some of them just buying second hand shoes worth 5 dollars, road broken looks like suffered from world war 3.
Yeah right to compare right now Ukraine to other neighboring countries, Ukraine has low employment rate, even blind,old and deaf has job, so many job in Ukraine only lacking of workers, while in neighboring countries people can't get job, so they often have time to sit and humiliate others. They have time right now to humiliate because simple... they are not BUSY. But if they are busy with other things, they won't have time to sit and waste time to bully others.

Romania?It is EU right? you think so this place is beautiful? don't you know that most of the place there looks like "squatters"? they even don't have toilet, some of them living without electric, no water, and do you know that too much poverty and high unemployment in Romania? Most of them living below $1 a day.Some of them even cannot afford to go to primary school. To think they actually have a fund from EU.
Go to that place and check by yourself!

Ukraine? no fund from EU but this Ukraine stand strong and economy is stable. This people are just to busy to sit and bully they don't pay attention that their country and economy is sinking. I can see improvements in Ukraine because I go out of the country too often, and I can see what has changed and not change.
Canada? I have relatives in Canada, some Canadians just picking up bottles and sold it, I have cousins too married to Canadians, they don't have house, they live in the van,some People in USA living under the train tunnel do you know that?

Germany? I have family there, they live by salary to salary.
France? I also have family in France,most of them even cannot afford to go back home to Philippines for 20 years, and why? because they just live to salary by salary,
Most of them cannot afford the life abroad, so they went home to Philippines and live in the amount of $1000.

So what now has happened to the Europe countries? they are sinking in debts do you know that? Look at Greece what happened to them? modernized and improved? so why now high unemployment rate? and why EU now gonna kick them out of the Europe Union?

You have to understand Ukraine stands alone, without any help but in anyway they make the economy stable and in 21 years they are able to build new infrastructures, it is just indicate that your country is far better and it will be more better if all of you will help to each other and make your country more prosperous.

Anyway If I were to ask to live in USA or Ukraine I would still chose Ukraine, we have properties in USA, and we are suffering from too much tax!
USA is a place full of lazy, except guys yes, most of them business minded, American ladies? they even cannot wash their underwear, they just turned it to other side and wear again and throw when totally dirty.
What else? they even cannot prepare for husband meals, they just lay to the couch hang legs, eat potatoes and drink soda pop!
What else they do? they fool around and when it get pregnant leave husband and ask for monthly support, then get another man to do the same thing.So modernized right? while Ukrainian ladies, if feel can't afford to support baby, better not to get pregy.
In my country ladies fuck around and get pregnant , some abort and hang it to the tree... In Canada,boys and girls send for prostitution by own parents as early as 12 years old.
Lots of raping and scandal,even murder cases, and some of them even killing their own family, killing own child, cook it in the oven,shot it to the head with gun. Is there Ukrainian ever cook her baby in the micro waive? I haven't heard it yet!

Well, maybe yes, maybe no, but as long as there's people making horror stories about Ukraine, even with football or without football it will be the same.When you say "Ukraine" people labeled you as, PROSTITUTE,CORRUPT and CRIMINAL.

Back to 10 years ago, I would say Oh my gosh, because 10 years  ago, the place was real bad, looks like the country suffered a lot from war, it surprised me I have to pack the things I bought from the store and no one understand me except my husband. I never used with such services, but it slowly change services becoming  better, the hotels,food,airport,prices still affordable, salary getting better, more job.

Well, you know why other countries so many come? that's because they promoting it non stop, and it is not difficult to enter,the requirements is not so difficult, and why some foreigners wanting other countries that's because it is easy for them to come to work and live and they could easily become citizen. In Ukraine, It is not easy as 1, 2, 3 to get a Permanent Residence card.

In the other side, it is bad because if someone wants to migrate and work in Ukraine it is difficult because of too strict rules of taking visas.

While in other countries if you work for at least 2 years they could get even citizenship, or became immigrant.

The good side for Ukraine of being to strict it protects, the local for losing job, low job competition,the place will not populated, look America all you can see just black and brown people everywhere,flooded of immigrants, high job competency and high unemployment rates.

What else? the immigrants could buy properties, which is bad what will happened if rich immigrants come and buy all properties in Ukraine? Ukrainians will have small place to live and farm, and people will suffer from poverty.

charm2011 wrote:

Well, maybe yes, maybe no, but as long as there's people making horror stories about Ukraine, even with football or without football it will be the same.When you say "Ukraine" people labeled you as, PROSTITUTE,CORRUPT and CRIMINAL.

Back to 10 years ago, I would say Oh my gosh, because 10 years  ago, the place was real bad, looks like the country suffered a lot from war, it surprised me I have to pack the things I bought from the store and no one understand me except my husband. I never used with such services, but it slowly change services becoming  better, the hotels,food,airport,prices still affordable, salary getting better, more job.

Well, you know why other countries so many come? that's because they promoting it non stop, and it is not difficult to enter,the requirements is not so difficult, and why some foreigners wanting other countries that's because it is easy for them to come to work and live and they could easily become citizen. In Ukraine, It is not easy as 1, 2, 3 to get a Permanent Residence card.

In the other side, it is bad because if someone wants to migrate and work in Ukraine it is difficult because of too strict rules of taking visas.

While in other countries if you work for at least 2 years they could get even citizenship, or became immigrant.

The good side for Ukraine of being to strict it protects, the local for losing job, low job competition,the place will not populated, look America all you can see just black and brown people everywhere,flooded of immigrants, high job competency and high unemployment rates.

What else? the immigrants could buy properties, which is bad what will happened if rich immigrants come and buy all properties in Ukraine? Ukrainians will have small place to live and farm, and people will suffer from poverty.

Well ledy, look had you done the comparison you would have seen that based on the input from many people over the 18 month period the average salary in Warsaw is $955 in Kiev only $550, food costs about the same, rent is more affordable and so on. If you compare it all to US and Canada...there is no comparison bacause you will not find any city in Canada where people make less than $2500 a month.  So please...this conclusions have nothing to do with promoting one country and not the other. Those are statistical facts based on opinions of 55 people for Kiev data and 112 for Warsaw. Even more people expressed their opinions about Canada, US etc. I am glad you are liking it in Ukraine, but face it - your husband is a high earner and that is all there is to it.  It might be true that I try to discurage people from seeing Ukraine and Kiev in particular in rosy colors, but that is only because that way perspective newcomers will not get burned by it all. If I may...you are probably a pretty girl, who just married a well estublished guy, that is all. Just yesterday I watched a program on American TV called House Hunters International, where they told a story of an Australian family looking for a $2500 a month house to rent because they found new jobs as teachers in Manila. I don't even know how much you have to be paid in a month to be looking for a house like that. So please...it can go either way, just don't go overboard with how much you love Ukraine.

PS. ...and one more thing - this forum is called expat-blog.com. It is for expats and for those who can help them, I will simply not stand for the people not getting the information they need in order to make cool-headed decisions just becuase someone likes it in Ukraine very much. If anyone gets offended I say this - refute the eveidence at Numbeo.com by posting the results of your own poll, asking 55 people in Kiev and 112 in Warsaw about how they live, what they make and how much they spend and at that point we can talk.

My personal opinion - the more info the better, just don't keep writing about your own experiences in detail, trying to present it as evidence why things are the way you think they are.  Mind you I did not say anywhere how much money I have, or that it is anough to buy two appartments in Ukraine, marry a beautiful girl start a family and so on. Why not - because I know that looking at these things objectivly I would be able to buy four such appartments over the border in Bulgaria (where the standard of living and price level is the same as in Ukraine) or go for one appartment in Warsaw, Poland, where people make twice as much money doing the same work. Even better I could stay where I am at now (working as a technical writer for IT company in US) and make four times more than IT company writer makes in Kiev. So please be objective...

...it is also true that for some native speakers of English, professionally Kiev might be not a bad option. It is also true that some girls get married and so on. However,  still try to be objective when talking about such things as people's decisions and life choices might depend on it.

I did not want to write this, as I think I have written anough, but the point is simple here - of course Ukraine can not impress, be it for Euro 2012 or otherwise (if one is objective anough). That is because no objective person can fail to see that Ukraine has one of the lowest standards of living in Europe, one of the most corrupt governments, one of the lowest incomes as so on. How do I know? Because every news, information and internet source says so. I know so because I am a Ukrainian myself, because I have relatives both in the village and in the city, because I am a western educated professional who prior to finding a good job in US had applied for various positions in Kiev only to be offered salaries of $500-700 /month ...I could continue

Now having achieved some level of success in the west nobody will cause me to lie about my own country. If anything I want to warn others of coming to Kiev, so that they refrain from making same mistakes I have taking the overnight train from Odessa for various interviews at supposedly leading Ukrainian and international companies in the capital. Do you know what they offered me to be a full time writter (journalist) at the country's only English language newspaper (KyivPost) in 2005 -$350/month. Do you know what compensation I was offered to be a technical writter in 2009 - $500-600. It is only computer programmers who make half descent money in Kiev.

...and about Filipines...according to wikipedia and Numbeo.com and BBC and so many others the two countries (corruption and income levels in Ukraine and Filipines) are very comparable. For someone to say that Ukraine beats Canada and US in the quality of life and income levels is just plain crazy....to say that someone sits and enters information on all of those sites and to make countries like Poland look good and Ukraine look bad is even crazier.

Once again - I love my copuntry, but don't say that Manila is all about poverty and Kiev about opportunities. Filipines had its own People Power that did not produce any expected results (poverty there is still high), we had our Orange revolution, the two countries are more alike than different. So just stop saying how great and civilized life in Ukraine is.  I personally have  great respect for late Cori Aquino, but it will not cause me to close my eyes to millions who live in poverty there. Please do the same for Ukraine, do a favor for long suffering Ukrainian people - tell the truth.

Will Kiev benefit from EURO 2012 ?

*My answer is... YES  for FOOTBALL it will have benefits,because of big sales then you will have earnings. BUT, be very careful because if you put a long term investment, you will likely to lose because EURO football is just for a few months. So be wise and make sure that the business you chose would not be affected even without EURO football.

  IF Kyiv will benefit joining Europe Union? My answer is NO!it will caused disaster and why?

* If Ukraine will join EU, they will not have profit, they will just get loses... because

* The TOP BANKERS with the Government, made the ratio system, in US 1:10 in Europe 1:10 and Ukraine is 1:6  And this is one of the basic reason of ECONOMICAL INSTABILITY.
*The ratio system is the source of INFLATION

* The Inflation --> is the source of economical crisis, so basically this is the limitation of "Capitalistic System" so the "Bankers" want to unite all "countries" in one "Financial System" with one "Central Bank", so that they will have maximum profit from "Centralized Banking System".

  Then it will be massive "inflation" because banks will have the possibility to make the "money" out of nothing!
  The number of money will increase dramatically, and crisis happen. That is why Lincoln was killed because he was against the "Centralized Banking system"
* Bankers wanted to introduce the "Legislation of Law" about "Federal Reserve Bank" and Lincoln did not allowed them to put this law in action, so they killed him.

If Ukraine will joined EU, it will not have profit, it will just get loses, because Ukraine will get affected with EURO currency inflation, So it will lost the resources in exchange for "Euro currency"

Example : "If you sell your house for 1 million Euros and the inflation is fast, the next few days, you can't longer buy your house back to you because the prices of house has increased. While the money you have is just the same.
And this is why most of European countries suffering from poverty, because the country is sinking in debts and the resources is not enough to cover up the interest to the world bank, so what to happen? it will be more poverty to come and no more development of infrastructure, If the country shows development infrastructure it is a sign that the economy is stable.
*  Another example if a country have a small "internal market" or "local market" that is stable it will be intervened with huge amount of "EURO currency", By other words the "Bankers" will buy your "countries" resources in a "cheap price" and "prices" will "raise up". So, you have the people "rob" by "BANKERS" and the country will not have middle class anymore...

So right now, Ukraine is better in "FINANCIAL SYSTEM" because they have the ratio of 1:6
And this will make the country more economically better if the ratio is 1:1 and "NO interest on lending". Then the country will have a stable financial system. And the "Bank"  will not be interested in lending anymore... because they can't get much profit from your country...
The "Bank" will just charge your country for the services, Depository Services, Transfer of money services and Exchange currency rate service, So the "BANKERS" will not be longer rich , they will have a regular earning just like other professions.

So at the moment, UKRAINE has the better possession compared to US, and EU because Ukraine is not yet EU.

This is clear that Ukraine "economic success" is not in EU, because to make the country success, the Government and the people in the country should "care and focus" to the internal market or to the "local market".
The citizens should care their "local market", family, relatives, friends, and neighborhood to make the internal or local market stable, this is the only way to make the country successful.

The HUMAN RIGHTS, it should only protect the "Private Property"

and this is not what is going on anymore... the world already cared the "Environmental Rights" they want to protect animals and nature, make "prohibited zones" for people to visit. And then to concentrate all people in the cities and to regulate population, plainly decreased it!

They want people "robots" working for them.
They will implant chips to the body and totally control the people this was their ultimate goal so that they will have a people like "slaves and robots". And the EU is just a step of this plan.And they doing this brainwashing even to the children through using education.
And another step is to changed "Education" and replaced "Private Property values" with the "ENVIRONMENTAL RIGHTS VALUES" in "NEW GENERATIONS". To reach their ultimate goal to control the POPULATION.And then there will be no BANKERS and they turned themselves into "RULERS", the Ultimate goal to have Endless power and rule the world.

So to avoid this, ignore their rules by knowing them and do your best, care your family, relatives, friends and neighborhood not the government.

Because we cannot change the government and we cannot change the system.

What we should do just learn and make a good business to your community, if you care your community and constantly learn endlessly to do good business with your neighborhood, and learn how things work then you make your business better and better, so your country is in success.

charm2011 wrote:

Will Kiev benefit from EURO 2012 ?

*My answer is... YES  for FOOTBALL it will have benefits,because of big sales then you will have earnings. BUT, be very careful because if you put a long term investment, you will likely to lose because EURO football is just for a few months. So be wise and make sure that the business you chose would not be affected even without EURO football.

  IF Kyiv will benefit joining Europe Union? My answer is NO!it will caused disaster and why?

* If Ukraine will join EU, they will not have profit, they will just get loses... because

* The TOP BANKERS with the Government, made the ratio system, in US 1:10 in Europe 1:10 and Ukraine is 1:6  And this is one of the basic reason of ECONOMICAL INSTABILITY.
*The ratio system is the source of INFLATION

* The Inflation --> is the source of economical crisis, so basically this is the limitation of "Capitalistic System" so the "Bankers" want to unite all "countries" in one "Financial System" with one "Central Bank", so that they will have maximum profit from "Centralized Banking System".

  Then it will be massive "inflation" because banks will have the possibility to make the "money" out of nothing!
  The number of money will increase dramatically, and crisis happen. That is why Lincoln was killed because he was against the "Centralized Banking system"
* Bankers wanted to introduce the "Legislation of Law" about "Federal Reserve Bank" and Lincoln did not allowed them to put this law in action, so they killed him.

If Ukraine will joined EU, it will not have profit, it will just get loses, because Ukraine will get affected with EURO currency inflation, So it will lost the resources in exchange for "Euro currency"

Example : "If you sell your house for 1 million Euros and the inflation is fast, the next few days, you can't longer buy your house back to you because the prices of house has increased. While the money you have is just the same.
And this is why most of European countries suffering from poverty, because the country is sinking in debts and the resources is not enough to cover up the interest to the world bank, so what to happen? it will be more poverty to come and no more development of infrastructure, If the country shows development infrastructure it is a sign that the economy is stable.
*  Another example if a country have a small "internal market" or "local market" that is stable it will be intervened with huge amount of "EURO currency", By other words the "Bankers" will buy your "countries" resources in a "cheap price" and "prices" will "raise up". So, you have the people "rob" by "BANKERS" and the country will not have middle class anymore...

So right now, Ukraine is better in "FINANCIAL SYSTEM" because they have the ratio of 1:6
And this will make the country more economically better if the ratio is 1:1 and "NO interest on lending". Then the country will have a stable financial system. And the "Bank"  will not be interested in lending anymore... because they can't get much profit from your country...
The "Bank" will just charge your country for the services, Depository Services, Transfer of money services and Exchange currency rate service, So the "BANKERS" will not be longer rich , they will have a regular earning just like other professions.

So at the moment, UKRAINE has the better possession compared to US, and EU because Ukraine is not yet EU.

This is clear that Ukraine "economic success" is not in EU, because to make the country success, the Government and the people in the country should "care and focus" to the internal market or to the "local market".
The citizens should care their "local market", family, relatives, friends, and neighborhood to make the internal or local market stable, this is the only way to make the country successful.

The HUMAN RIGHTS, it should only protect the "Private Property"

and this is not what is going on anymore... the world already cared the "Environmental Rights" they want to protect animals and nature, make "prohibited zones" for people to visit. And then to concentrate all people in the cities and to regulate population, plainly decreased it!

They want people "robots" working for them.
They will implant chips to the body and totally control the people this was their ultimate goal so that they will have a people like "slaves and robots". And the EU is just a step of this plan.And they doing this brainwashing even to the children through using education.
And another step is to changed "Education" and replaced "Private Property values" with the "ENVIRONMENTAL RIGHTS VALUES" in "NEW GENERATIONS". To reach their ultimate goal to control the POPULATION.And then there will be no BANKERS and they turned themselves into "RULERS", the Ultimate goal to have Endless power and rule the world.

So to avoid this, ignore their rules by knowing them and do your best, care your family, relatives, friends and neighborhood not the government.

Because we cannot change the government and we cannot change the system.

What we should do just learn and make a good business to your community, if you care your community and constantly learn endlessly to do good business with your neighborhood, and learn how things work then you make your business better and better, so your country is in success.

OK, girl you are even more fanatical than I expected. If you really think what you say...well good luck to you wherever you live. It is one thing that in Russia Kremlin pushes this anti-western anti-capitalist sentiment, but for an educated person to believe it...well just good luck if you gonna argue that Ukraine is in a better position than US.

Well, I am not about fanatical , this is funny right? Funny to hear that Ukraine has better Financial,true it is funny but that's the reality, Ukraine government has the ratio of 1:6 while USA 1:10.

If you studying about economy you will understand it, could you imagine if your country has the financial ratio of 1:10?

do you know what is this mean? every country has banks,big banks and small banks, those small banks are under the TOP Bankers, the DEPOSITORS come to a SMALL BANK to deposit their money, and what happen if that DEPOSITOR will pull out their investment to the bank? It will bankrupt right? To prevent this bankruptcy the Top Bankers guaranteed this small banks not to collapsed or not to get bankrupt, so what the big banks do? they lend money to the small bank in the ratio of $1 dollar deposit, the small bank could lend or borrow money $10 to the TOP BANKER. Do you see? and what is next? this small bank will give this money to the Depositors, while the Top BANKERS increasing the interest rates of the money being borrowed by a small bank! While interest is increasing and increasing the small banks can't longer pay the BANKERS! And this is the time the BANKERS buy that SMALL BANK! SO what happened? THE DEPOSITORS thinking that they are still depositing their money owned by a SMALL BANK but hey! NO!YOU are depositing your money to the BANKERS!

Look! There are four classes of men, the BANKING FINANCE, Government,Business Elite and  Workers,  Government needs money for infrastructures,for developments to give work for people, But government does not have money, While Banking Finance have money but they are greedy to give it just for free, Business Elite has money, but they are also greedy to give their money for free, so what the government would do? They will run to the BANKING and FINANCE, lend or borrowed money, sure BANKING FINANCE liking it so much, they will just print paper and write down your name, while year by year the interest of the money you lent increasing, if you borrowed $100 in the next month if you don't pay it back it become $110 + the 10% interest until it became mountain and mountain, until you buried in debts and cannot longer pay it! So what happen? where the tax of people will go? the TAX of people already not going for the government projects for school, road, infrastructures, you know why? your TAX it is going already to the BANKING and FINANCE! Because government forward the money to cover up the interest so what happen if the TAX just going to BANKING oF FINANCE? there will be no project, government will decrease services just to minimize the cost, no more EDUCATION, no new Airport, BUILDINGS,road people the ordinary workers will not have job because government no money anymore, they can't longer run to the BANKING FINANCE to borrow money because they even cannot pay the big debts and interest Because they have reached the limit of how much only to borrow,so ordinary workers lost JOB, poverty starts and famine,while the business elite if no more projects in the country and the labor cost is expensive, they will just move their business to another country for a cheap labor!

And that is what happened to USA that is why they are sinking in DEBTS and 42.3 million starving, and the same in EU they are buried in Debts and the resources is not enough to cover up the interest in BANK, DO you know how much debts of EU to the BANKER? Trilion USD, And this is what happened to Greece, the people find out that their tax is already going  to the BANKERS not to the GOVERNMENT, government has high debts and they can't pay interest, so if you are the People of Greece why you have to pay your TAX knowing your money just going to the BANKER? anyway it will not be spend for your countries project,So Greece people rebelled and they don't want to pay tax to the BANKER

USA? you know what? you are too much listening to the sweet propaganda, do look around... Ukraine Kyiv 550USD?programmer?  Don't tell me, I see it by myself how much guys earned,do you think me and my family could troll around if we earned 550 USD a month? Do you know how much rent in Kyiv? you hardly could find even an apartment for the price of $550 a month. This is very unrealistic, because this is not the amount programmers earned in Kyiv. I guarantee you average rate is $3000 a month, $1000 if government office, you think so I lie? For many years I am with my husband in the office so I know what the actual figure programmer earns, it's so few to have $2500 unless your range of experience is less than 8 years. Do you know how many years of experience in IT field my husband and his team? they are more than 15, 20 and 30 years of experience in IT, and this  programmers earning $4,000 a month.

Philippines? no one in Philippines pay to foreigner for $2500 a month, Philippine maximum could give to a foreign skilled worker not more than $1000 dollar, some even less than that just they offer free boarding. You too much watch propaganda on tv, Philippines tv stations owned by an  oligarch, Chinese Filipino that filtering the news and showed only sweet propaganda. Teacher in Philippines are very poor, do you know how much they earned? private schools pay the teacher less than $180 a month public teachers earned $300

the real reason everywhere in the world putting your country down because the truth that UKRAINIAN Government does not want to follow them, Ukrainian leaders are not Followers, your Government is not easy to be manipulated, your leader has own rules, they don't want to play to the rules of others, Everyone in power will do everything whatever it takes to put your country down,so that it will give up will join to them , could you imagine if  40 countries will join together? it will be big  country and one currency, and this is the main purpose of the BANKER, do you know who are the owners of banker? they are the most powerful and rich, they are the one who controls the money! SO if your country join in a big party, and that Union come again to the BANKER and BORROW money, your country will sink in DEBTS that later on even your countries resources is not enough to cover up the interest, the rich will survive the middle class will totally wipe out, will lost job, die from hunger, those brainwashed will work for them, planted by chips to be push button, will work for them like robot, what for to pay big population? do they need it? No!

Remember we have sayings.." Just live by your means".


So , for awhile enjoy while Ukraine is not EU, because once it became EU, It will be like Romania, living below 1 dollar a day. As of now your leaders so stubborn,but who knows later he will give up, will join to the big party that currently sinking in debts. Once Ukraine become open this rich bankers will come and buy your land for cheap! You will be very happy because they will print you paper named EURO and then after few days ... surprise! prices will strike like rockets! Until your money is not enough because your currency is the same, salary not growing and you can't live with it anymore,Your country land is not longer affordable.. you can't afford to buy it anymore...rich will say  hello goodbye! I have your land BANKERS owned it!

As of now those living in america and europe union countries most of them don't feel it yet, they will just feel it one day when they wake up no more food to eat and no house to stay.... BANKERS got it!

Funny right? check in US if you can still see middle class, where they are? now sleeping in the road with a tent, no money no food, no job. Spain? do you know how much percent unemployed in Spain? hello 29% no job, and country buried in debts. You are too much biting to the sweet propaganda,
Why foreigners come to Philippines? because they could survive here even less cash,they could eat grasses, most of them here living very poor,plants would grow easily, so they could go farming for 12 months because we have only sunny and rainy days.

charm2011 wrote:

Well, I am not about fanatical , this is funny right? Funny to hear that Ukraine has better Financial,true it is funny but that's the reality, Ukraine government has the ratio of 1:6 while USA 1:10.

If you studying about economy you will understand it, could you imagine if your country has the financial ratio of 1:10?

do you know what is this mean? every country has banks,big banks and small banks, those small banks are under the TOP Bankers, the DEPOSITORS come to a SMALL BANK to deposit their money, and what happen if that DEPOSITOR will pull out their investment to the bank? It will bankrupt right? To prevent this bankruptcy the Top Bankers guaranteed this small banks not to collapsed or not to get bankrupt, so what the big banks do? they lend money to the small bank in the ratio of $1 dollar deposit, the small bank could lend or borrow money $10 to the TOP BANKER. Do you see? and what is next? this small bank will give this money to the Depositors, while the Top BANKERS increasing the interest rates of the money being borrowed by a small bank! While interest is increasing and increasing the small banks can't longer pay the BANKERS! And this is the time the BANKERS buy that SMALL BANK! SO what happened? THE DEPOSITORS thinking that they are still depositing their money owned by a SMALL BANK but hey! NO!YOU are depositing your money to the BANKERS!

Look! There are four classes of men, the BANKING FINANCE, Government,Business Elite and  Workers,  Government needs money for infrastructures,for developments to give work for people, But government does not have money, While Banking Finance have money but they are greedy to give it just for free, Business Elite has money, but they are also greedy to give their money for free, so what the government would do? They will run to the BANKING and FINANCE, lend or borrowed money, sure BANKING FINANCE liking it so much, they will just print paper and write down your name, while year by year the interest of the money you lent increasing, if you borrowed $100 in the next month if you don't pay it back it become $110 + the 10% interest until it became mountain and mountain, until you buried in debts and cannot longer pay it! So what happen? where the tax of people will go? the TAX of people already not going for the government projects for school, road, infrastructures, you know why? your TAX it is going already to the BANKING and FINANCE! Because government forward the money to cover up the interest so what happen if the TAX just going to BANKING oF FINANCE? there will be no project, government will decrease services just to minimize the cost, no more EDUCATION, no new Airport, BUILDINGS,road people the ordinary workers will not have job because government no money anymore, they can't longer run to the BANKING FINANCE to borrow money because they even cannot pay the big debts and interest Because they have reached the limit of how much only to borrow,so ordinary workers lost JOB, poverty starts and famine,while the business elite if no more projects in the country and the labor cost is expensive, they will just move their business to another country for a cheap labor!

And that is what happened to USA that is why they are sinking in DEBTS and 42.3 million starving, and the same in EU they are buried in Debts and the resources is not enough to cover up the interest in BANK, DO you know how much debts of EU to the BANKER? Trilion USD, And this is what happened to Greece, the people find out that their tax is already going  to the BANKERS not to the GOVERNMENT, government has high debts and they can't pay interest, so if you are the People of Greece why you have to pay your TAX knowing your money just going to the BANKER? anyway it will not be spend for your countries project,So Greece people rebelled and they don't want to pay tax to the BANKER

USA? you know what? you are too much listening to the sweet propaganda, do look around... Ukraine Kyiv 550USD?programmer?  Don't tell me, I see it by myself how much guys earned,do you think me and my family could troll around if we earned 550 USD a month? Do you know how much rent in Kyiv? you hardly could find even an apartment for the price of $550 a month. This is very unrealistic, because this is not the amount programmers earned in Kyiv. I guarantee you average rate is $3000 a month, $1000 if government office, you think so I lie? For many years I am with my husband in the office so I know what the actual figure programmer earns, it's so few to have $2500 unless your range of experience is less than 8 years. Do you know how many years of experience in IT field my husband and his team? they are more than 15, 20 and 30 years of experience in IT, and this  programmers earning $4,000 a month.

Philippines? no one in Philippines pay to foreigner for $2500 a month, Philippine maximum could give to a foreign skilled worker not more than $1000 dollar, some even less than that just they offer free boarding. You too much watch propaganda on tv, Philippines tv stations owned by an  oligarch, Chinese Filipino that filtering the news and showed only sweet propaganda. Teacher in Philippines are very poor, do you know how much they earned? private schools pay the teacher less than $180 a month public teachers earned $300

the real reason everywhere in the world putting your country down because the truth that UKRAINIAN Government does not want to follow them, Ukrainian leaders are not Followers, your Government is not easy to be manipulated, your leader has own rules, they don't want to play to the rules of others, Everyone in power will do everything whatever it takes to put your country down,so that it will give up will join to them , could you imagine if  40 countries will join together? it will be big  country and one currency, and this is the main purpose of the BANKER, do you know who are the owners of banker? they are the most powerful and rich, they are the one who controls the money! SO if your country join in a big party, and that Union come again to the BANKER and BORROW money, your country will sink in DEBTS that later on even your countries resources is not enough to cover up the interest, the rich will survive the middle class will totally wipe out, will lost job, die from hunger, those brainwashed will work for them, planted by chips to be push button, will work for them like robot, what for to pay big population? do they need it? No!

Remember we have sayings.." Just live by your means".


So , for awhile enjoy while Ukraine is not EU, because once it became EU, It will be like Romania, living below 1 dollar a day. As of now your leaders so stubborn,but who knows later he will give up, will join to the big party that currently sinking in debts. Once Ukraine become open this rich bankers will come and buy your land for cheap! You will be very happy because they will print you paper named EURO and then after few days ... surprise! prices will strike like rockets! Until your money is not enough because your currency is the same, salary not growing and you can't live with it anymore,Your country land is not longer affordable.. you can't afford to buy it anymore...rich will say  hello goodbye! I have your land BANKERS owned it!

As of now those living in america and europe union countries most of them don't feel it yet, they will just feel it one day when they wake up no more food to eat and no house to stay.... BANKERS got it!

Funny right? check in US if you can still see middle class, where they are? now sleeping in the road with a tent, no money no food, no job. Spain? do you know how much percent unemployed in Spain? hello 29% no job, and country buried in debts. You are too much biting to the sweet propaganda,
Why foreigners come to Philippines? because they could survive here even less cash,they could eat grasses, most of them here living very poor,plants would grow easily, so they could go farming for 12 months because we have only sunny and rainy days.

Girl, like I said this fourum is about sound advice to expats...I tried to be reaSonable here, but if you really think that the average salary in Kiev is ABOVE $1000...well just keep thinking so. 

Things are the way they are for a reason -it is not because some rich Jewish bankers organized themselves in a club to rule the world. It is because rich countries are where the innitiative thrives, while poor countries (including Ukraine and Filipines) are where that innitiative gets bogged down in beuracracy, curruption and authoritarian rule. An alternative view of the world is sweet because it allows to deflect the blame from ones own problems, but the fact (at least in relation to Ukraine) remains... it is one of the poorest and most corrupt countries in Europe, with millions of its citizens earning a living abroad and with the capital city so overpriced for the average $550/month salary that the neighboring countries look like heaven in comparison.

As for programmers, yes they on average make little more money (between $1000-2500/month). However, it is still nothing by  world standards. My sister makes three times as much as that, working as a mid-level C++ programmer in US. As a technical writter I make $3000, do you know what a technical writter makes in Kiev? It is about $600-1000).  So please stop saying this nonsense just because you are living a good life and your husband earns so much.

I had not even heard about your ratios before you brougth them up. If you mean the  country's debt to GDP ratio - it is not the only measure of sucess. A better indication of a standard of living is GDP per capita or PPP (purchasing power parity) per capita. Here Ukraine's is like $6500 a year, while that of US - $47000. We are talking about the purchasing power parity - a measure of how much money the country generates in a year for every citizen, adjusted for the price level there. In other words given that prices are higher in US the spendable dollars  people earn  there in year are $47000 while in Ukraine it is only $6500.

Yes, life in Kiev is little better and people there earn little more than in the rest of Ukraine, but if you are going to talk about economics intelligently first educate yourself about such things as GDP, PPP and so on as they are universally accepted measures of economic output (production) and purchasing power.

You can look at so many other criteria...Human Development Index, Amnesty Internetional reports and so  on. The alternative economic view is simple - all is happy in our great kingdom, if there are problems, they are all because of the rich bankers, rich fat bankers to be exact.

While I don't condone the exccesses and greed on Wall Street I just want to let you know what on average people pay in US for a 30 year mortgage - 5% annually. To buy a house you need a steady job and 10-20% down (as innitial payment for the house or appartment). My parents currently pay 4.5% interest a year for a house, having paid only 20000 for a place that cost $200000. I don't need to remind you how much IPOTEKA or mortgage costs in Ukraine Right? (it is 20-22% annually in Hr)

In addition when talking about banks in the west you might probably not be aware that very few credit cards here offer terms without at least 6 month of no interest on any ballance up to allowed maximum. While most credit card companies give out cards with 1 year grace period (you pay no interest for one year). I currently openned a card given out by US Airways (one of the major airlines here in US). Just for openning and using it I get to fly anywhere in Europe or Latin America one time for free. That is a round trip ticket that costs $700-900 in the winter time (when I can use the offer according to their conditions).

So just don't say things you don't truly understand. Like i said you live a good life, but it does not mean that your view of the world is correct. It might be correct to you, but here we try to present objective facts to help others... no need for alternative views of the world.

I am a simple Englishman living a quiet life in a village in Crimea,the salaries being mentioned are a fantasy to most people here,and  not many have a flat in town to rent and choose to live in a village. My father in law earns 800 gvn a month. People are struggling to feed themselves and clothe their children. Wake up lady from the phillipines you live ona different planet to most people. Be thankful you have the life you do but do not assume villagers choose their lives or want to be poor. I live amongst these people and 100% of the kids I give free English lessons to want to leave Ukraine .

watchthatman wrote:

I am a simple Englishman living a quiet life in a village in Crimea,the salaries being mentioned are a fantasy to most people here,and  not many have a flat in town to rent and choose to live in a village. My father in law earns 800 gvn a month. People are struggling to feed themselves and clothe their children. Wake up lady from the phillipines you live ona different planet to most people. Be thankful you have the life you do but do not assume villagers choose their lives or want to be poor. I live amongst these people and 100% of the kids I give free English lessons to want to leave Ukraine .

Thank you very much...not for agreeing with me, but for the free lessons you give and for the honesty you write with about your experiences in Crimea. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to demonise my land and my people. Instead I want to highlight their plight by stressing what conditions they live in. Despine all relatively happy appearances of wealth in Kiev and a few other Ukrainian cities even there people struggle so much and the world needs to know about it.

Yeah, your point is to give an advice if where is the place for a better stay.

The answer is, if where has the better "financial system". Because economy and success it depends to financial system, if the country has a very good financial system, then it is reasonable to live because you will really survive and you can sustain the lifestyle that you want.

Of course I should not agree about programmer earning as $500 a month, because my husband was a programmer and later became Project Manager, he is the one who was assigned to give rates to the workers in the company, there's no such $500 it is always more than $3600 and when there is start up company, the old companies losing experts, so what happened? they compete with prices another company even offer $4600 a month well, if how the workers declared their salary, we already out of it, This rate it is only exclusive for Ukrainians, Ukrainian businessman in Ukraine gives higher salary than the foreign worker so, if you are a foreigner don't expect that Ukrainian investors will give you the same rate like locals,unlike in my home country,the business owner pays  higher than our local.

So, if you are looking for a place to live just make sure that the financial system of the country is "better served" for economy development, because if it is too bad, then it is not a good place to stay, because you will not be able to sustain the life you wanted.
And why I found Ukraine is better? Because Ukraine is better in "financial system".

  Ukraine has only 1:6 ratio of "financial system"
Ukraine is better because of less "leverage" And then the country's inflation is limited and "price distortion" is less.

If the country you live with is suffering from price distortion it is bad for economy because... "Price distortion" -> gives a wrong signal for allocation of investment in economy. And then your investment project fails because of wrong signals.

If the BANK starts aggressive "crediting" in properties or house sector then prices on houses is "rises". And why it "rise"? Because many buyers occurs from bank financing, so they start to compete for the houses, raising the price because the "demand" is become bigger than the proposition. For instance I have 10 houses and eleven buyers,of course I can't sell eleven house.. the buyers will fight for the price and they will start to compete.

So, it is understood that living in a country that has "bigger" ratio of "Financial System" it is bad because you won't be able to sustain the standard lifestyle you want.

You can say a country below standard if people living very poor than others, but how you could say that Ukrainians are below standard, while... ordinary Ukrainians "throw out" the food more than Europeans.Ukrainians disposing more than 7 millions of food a year Why? because too much food, no poverty, people are employed they don't care anyway they have lots of food.

You cannot say a country is high standard if most of the population suffering from starvation, no food, no job and money.

So if you are wise, if you are living to a place that high unemployment,the country is sinking in debts, if you have money right now, you better "escape" find a place that it could sustain your life, and do the right thing. Don't put your money to the bank, buy something that no one could take it from you, a 100% of your money, keep aside 50% as back up in case your business fail.
The 50% of your money invest it in a profitable business, some you could purchase gold, time is going... gold is getting more expensive, buy land because land never grow, but population grows.When you have the land you should be skilled to handle people to work for you, whatever happens even no more cash you will be able to live because you have the land to farm.
Never put your savings to the bank, what for to trust your money in the bank?

What banks did? played your "emotions" and make you "poor". Making you believe that you should put your money in the bank for interest.

If you don't understand this, you will likely to end up very poor,. Because if you put your money to the bank, the bank robbing you invisibly, and how? You deposit $100 if 1 million population deposit money to the bank it will be big amount and the next day you come to withdraw your $100, you thought it is the same because they still return your $100 bill,but you never know that the money they give you it was from another depositor.

When you go out of the bank, you will surprise your $100 is nothing, it is just enough for a piece of bread, because prices inflate. The prices it depends to the amount of money they have in the bank.
"BANKS" designed to transfer all the wealth of people to the bank.
That is why the rich become more rich and the poor become more poor.

So many Americans believe that putting their money in the bank and wait for interest and then they will have profit, which is wrong.

That is why people in USA went poor because they trusted their money to the bank, took credit for a rocket price of house and pay it for a lifetime, because of interest.

So if you are a wise "middle class" find a place where it has low inflation  and make a business by your own, don't wait for the bank to invest it for you, because one day you will come to them to take your money and they will just say.. sorry we are bankrupt!

That is why .. great great grandparents always say... kid, study well, find a job and feed yourself, don't wait for someone to come to feed you.

If the country is dependent for an "external" help, and when no one help anymore.. people will suffer because no one will come to feed them, unlike IF you used to live and work without others help, you won't be affected too much because you already know to survive. And why Ukrainians are lucky? because population smaller than the land. While if tomorrow EU or USA declare bankruptcy, the WORLD bank will take everything owned by government, so how the big numbers of population survive to a small piece of land? They will start from the scratch and this is very difficult, but how this nation would deal the big DEBTS in WORLD BANK? scary... that is why the wise Americans already escaping of USA and look for a place where they could sustain life and doing right things like making business to survive.

We are always living in the shoulders of yesterday, if today we are wasting our time and life, tomorrow we will be very poor. This is just what I could advice, don't waste time, if you have opportunity to escape in such situation do it.

People should not stop of learning, because once you stop,you will become outdated and no one will buy you in the market,and you will realized you already became old and no skill.

Your life is in your hands it is all depends to you.. anywhere is fine as long as you know to manage yourself.

Thanks for the reply, bye bye !