90 day rule - what haven't I thought of?

@janemulberry Also consider Serbia, Jane.  It's a good country. Yes it has its problems, but it's not dissimilar to Bulgaria.  My wife and I spent a week in Belgrade and we were very impressed - not only is the city fantastic but the people are lovely.

Serbia is not EU.

is it not possible to live in bg and keep renewing a visa as you own a property?

@cyberescue1

Great suggestion and Serbia would be an excellent choice! Unfortunately our house is about as far as it's possible to get from Serbia in Bg. Fine for a holiday but maybe a big wearing moving our passel of cats every 90 days. Also, though rather unlikely, it's just remotely possible Serbia might join the EU in the next few years.

    is it not possible to live in bg and keep renewing a visa as you own a property?        -@buckleyps

If it was, there'd be no question, we'd be there already! Since Brexit, unless a Brit holds an EU passport as well OR obtained residency under the pre-Brexit rules, no, it's way more complicated to stay longer than the permitted 90 days per 180. The only way to residency via property purchase now is to invest more than 600,000 BGN in property. Sadly somewhat more ready cash than we have available, even after selling our UK house.

Though oddly, the Border Police don't seem to know it. I had one ask me why I was getting my passport stamped in and out each time when as a home owner I could simply apply for a residency card!

I've never heard someone do this before but sounds like a good solution . Are there many Brits in rural North Turkey houses?.

@janemulberry

Patience is a virtue, no? :-) The in/out is a pain in the proverbial, so if you've only got, say, a couple of years before your pension starts, I'd suggest it's not worth the aggravation.

We have two large non-EU neighbours, Turkey and Serbia. Both are easy drives, and both have pretty relaxed residence rules. Turkey has an extended tourism residence visa (for one year), and Serbia allows residence based on a property purchase (I don't think there's a minimum value) or forming a Serbian company. I suppose Albania/North Macedonia are also options, but I don't know their residence rules, but I'd guess a property purchase, like Serbia, might work.

I think you'll need a residence visa in the 2nd country as it will be very hard to meet the less than 90 days rule in country  Turkey, while meeting the 90 days out rule in Bulgaria! With Serbia you might get away with visa-free tourist status all year, as you can exit Serbia and spend a couple of days in Albania before entering Bulgaria. If you have a residence visa in Serbia or Turkey then you can stay more than 90 days, and you can apply for your D visa there when that day arrives.

A flat on the Aegean would be very nice, but it's a pretty long drive... and it will cost a chunk of money. A countryside shack in Serbia might be quite cheap, but it would be very rustic living.

@janemulberry Hi Jane. As non EU citizens, we had to open a Business account in a bank in order to qualify for D Visas. The business is non functional and it cost 50 lev at the time to open the account. Terry and I are both on the business account. We have to file a 0 income report each year. I'm not sure how that works with British citizens. Another route is once you get your D Visa you can apply for temporary residency and once you have that you can apply for "family unification" for your husband to get the D Visa and subsequent residency. I had to do that for my husband in order to avoid the 90 day in/out rule. His D Visa has been approved and he flies to Israel next week to get the D Visa in his passport and then immediately back here to finally get his residency.

Jane, we have a great woman in Varna who helps us (for a small fee) with all these immigration issues. Have I given you Toli's contact details? She works with many British clients. BTW when will you qualify for your pension?

Regarding overstaying the 90 day visa. We overstayed during Covid and it cost us 500 lev each. Terry is overstaying now, for a second time, because I couldn't get him an appointment at the Bulgarian Embassy in Tel Aviv to receive the D Visa until Sep 11 and under the current circumstances in Israel, I didn't want him hanging out there any more than necessary.  We were told that a second overstay could cost up to 5000 lev but we expect it to be around a thousand this time since I have residency, he has an official paper from immigration about the D Visa, we jointly own property and the overstay is less than a month. However, we'll see next week....

I just came across this, it might be useful.

https://posolstvo.eu/blog/overstay-visa-free-bulgaria/

@janemulberry

Quite a few Brits previously living in Turkey have upped sticks due to the increased cost and complexity of continuing to live there, so you might want to check that avenue very carefully!

Wow, a lot to think about here! Thank you to everyone for your comments.

Simply overstaying was one of the not-legal options we'd considered. Having to pay even a rather large fine is an ouch but okay, as long as it's not something that will get us permanently barred from returning or legally applying for a D visa. We do intend to sell our UK house, so if we got chucked out, we'd have nothing here to come back to. We're quite happy to pay a reasonable fine to be able to leave and rent in the UK for a few months while I apply for the D visa once the time comes. But it appears according to Carl's link that since the law changed in 2023, that's not an option. A 5 year ban from re-entry or a D visa application isn't something I'm willing to risk. I guess it could be possible to just go any live there, keep a very low profile -- not drive or do anything involving dealing with officialdom -- and never leave the country again, which we'd both be okay with. But also very insecure!

Judith, our situation will probably be different as neither of us have legal residency yet, but you do and your hubby has the process underway. I can't apply for the retirement visa until February 2027, so it would be a very long overstay for us! I work online part time as a writer and virtual assistant and on average earn about three times the Bg minimum wage each month, but there's no D visa category for that. Hubby is a couple of years younger and has taken ill health retirement but unfortunately due to him following very bad financial advice (before we met!) he only has a small work pension, lower than the Bg minimum wage, so not enough to qualify. That was his bad decision. MIne was not jumping in feet first right after Brexit and getting residency sorted out them.

Please do PM me Toli's details as I'm going to need some very good advice to make a wise decision here! I don't want to compound our two past bad decisions with a third!

And it sounds like Serbia rather than Turkey will be the way to go if we end up doing 90 days here, 90 days there, a week somewhere else... Which will get very tiresome, and is not at all what I want to spend two years doing. But hubby's health problems make it very hard for him to cope with delays and situations he's not happy with. Though I strongly suspect a move will just mean exporting his unhappiness to a different situation, he loves our Bg place, has made friends there, and really is getting desperate to move. The legal way to do it would be to do 90 days there and 90 days here in the UK, but separately, to save moving the cats more than once. But he won't cope more than a few weeks on his own, in either place.

Another case of cats ruling the world. Or certainly, our lives as cat carers!

It really does need a good deal of thought putting in!

We have some great British friends who've lived here almost as long as I have. They really love the village they live in, so much so that they own multiple properties there; they get on very well with their neighbours and are always ready to help out.  BUT.....

They're also eyeing up pastures new: the friendly neighbours have burgled them at least four times, they've lost count of how much building material etc has gone walkies from their garden, their pets have been poisoned, and they're fed up with having to smile at the people who they know treat them like fools behind their back.

Ouch! Thankfully in the two years we've owned our property we've only had the most minor issues of things going walkies - two empty pallets from a building materials delivery last autumn disappeared into my neighbour's garden. Well, to be honest, one was already on my neighbour's land as they took the delivery in for us and the builders carried all the goods up to our house in from there. That's it, just the empty pallets. Thousands of leva worth of other building materials stayed exactly where they were supposed to. Tools left in an unsecured shed stayed where they were supposed to. Even sand and roofing tiles delivered to public land across the road didn't get touched, though I did have someone ask if they could buy the leftovers from me after the builder finished.

I'm quite sure some consider us fools -- to our faces, not behind our backs -- as we lack understanding of basic Bulgarian cultural things and language issues a five-year-old knows. But it's rather liberating to be луда Дженка - crazy Jane! Rather than the British pressure to conform, it's expected that we'll follow the beat of a different drummer.

That peaceful existence might change, of course, and if living there becomes untenable for whatever reason, we'll need to reconsider. I'll ensure the money from our UK house sale is wisely invested, so we'll have money to give us options to move if needed. Well, apart from the option to move back to the UK. With the cost of living in the UK being what it is and our income being what it is, staying here is no longer tenable, either.  I think my Plan E, setting things up so my book earnings can get hubby a freelancer visa, will be workable with some effort and expense. I intend to get some legal advice ASAP.

@janemulberry

Bung 50 grand into Premium Bonds and keep your fingers crossed....

Yes, sounds like a plan!

@janemulberry

Hiya Jane.

We are doing something similar.  30 days Bulgaria, 30 days UK and so on.  We are leaving animals here in Bulgaria and turn around with my father. It's worked for nearly 6 months

It did make.me.smile when the police turned up at my house last week (about the water, or lack of it lol) and said not to worry about a visa. It's him that would.check here and the village and him want us here. As lovely and beautiful the intentions are I'm getting the visa haha

It's exhausting travelling all the time. I hate leaving the animals even though I know my father and adult son will look after them perfectly fine.

I was thinking of living between Bulgaria and Romania before they both rudely joined the Schengen 😂

Agreed, Suzi! Schengen is so inconvenient, because Romania would be far easier. Our place is walking distance to the border, or about 40 minutes drive to the nearest official border control!

I'm glad it's working for you and your family, though I can imagine how tiring and unsettling it is for you. For us, the only way to make it work is to either live apart, switching places every 90 days so one of us is always with the animals; or move ALL of us every 90 days.

I am fairly sure we'd be fine just moving, no one would report us, everyone says "Just move here, we want you here." But like you, with the tougher new laws, I really don't want to risk getting barred for five years.

@janemulberry

"Where there's a will....."  Just divorce 'Im Indoors and marry a Bulgarian toy-boy....you'll get a Family Reunion visa and job done!

Yes, I'm sure my sweet widowed 80 year old neighbour would be happy to play! He might be Plan G.

@janemulberry

Don't laugh TOO much: a great friend of mine did something very similar to get to stay in the UK - it worked out VERY well for her, and her next husband was a millionaire!

I'm glad it worked! But my current husband might not be too thrilled by the plan (though who knows, maybe he'll be delighted ) . And I suspect that unless I can cook Bulgarian food better than the meals on wheels service my neighbour gets, he won't go for the deal.

Is it really more difficult to live in BG now as an expat?

@buckleyps

It's more expensive than it used to be, and Brexit's thrown out additional hoops for Brits hoping to qualify as residents in the EU.  The authorities here are trying, with varying degrees of success, to clamp down on the p*ss-takers, so I'd say that it's definitely more difficult.  It remains to be seen if Bulgaria decides to go down the Greek route and basically make it impossible for folks on a limited income to qualify for residency...

@buckleyps It's easy for someone who has at least 320,000 EUR to buy property,  OR more than that to invest in approved investments, OR someone retired with a verifiable regular life-long pension income (no other income is accepted) of at least the Bulgarian minimum wage.

For almost anyone else without an EU passport, EU permanent residency, or strong Bulgarian family connections, it's extremely difficult and getting more difficult year on year. I'm not at all surprised to see other forum members concerned that the goalposts will keep moving.

First Brexit, understandably a big shift. And now the hoops Bulgaria is being forced to jump through to qualify for Schengen. Add that to the general anti-immigrant feeling across much of the western world, and there's a worsening situation where people who'd be valuable contributing citizens of a country simply cannot get permission to live there.

@janemulberry so sad this is happening.   Is nowhere safe to move to these days (without threat of being chucked out) ??

    @janemulberry so sad this is happening.   Is nowhere safe to move to these days (without threat of being chucked out) ??
   

    -@buckleyps

I guess that's precisely the question a lot of immigrants heading for the UK are asking themselves.  If you haven't got anything to offer the UK, then they're none too keen to accept you - it's hardly surprising that other countries are taking the same view of the immigrants heading their way, from whichever direction.

Countries like Greece are pretty much off-limits to all non-EU migrants unless they've got a decent pot of cash to invest in property for a Golden Visa, and that's causing more trouble than it's worth in terms of rising property prices and rents.  BG is probably one of the last havens for Brits looking to emulate the Goods or the Durrells...

What JimJ said.

There's no British exceptionalism that makes a UK passport holder somehow different from any other immigrant hoping to move to a different country. Anti-immigrant feeling, not just in the UK but in most countries, makes it harder for everyone to move.

Our reasons to want to move to someone else's country aren't because we feel there are "too many immigrants" in the UK. We want a different life to the one we have here and feel Bulgaria will offer it. We also feel we have something to offer Bulgaria, in our own small way. Unfortunately we're having trouble getting Bulgaria to recognise that yet!

This comment is not specifically directed at you, Sue, I don't know your reasons to want to move. But It's somewhat ironic that anti-immigrant feeling does seem to be a subtext for some on this forum seeking to become immigrants themselves.

my reason for wanting to move to bg is simply that i have visited many times and really love it! A more authentic way of life I have always lived.  I don't have any problem with people moving to other countries and coming to UK, I have traveled a lot in my life, worked in many countries - never have I gone to another country and expected them to pay for me to live, neither would those countries pay for me to arrive and put me up, so the word 'immigrant' means different things.  I worked in london hotels 40 years ago and most employees were from foreign lands, and it was absolutely wonderful.

It definitely feels more down-to-earth and authentic there, in both good and bad ways. Our village is very rural and quiet, lots of space, friendly people. We feel welcomed there and haven't had much in the way of bad experiences.

Well, hubby had two bad experiences. Someone stole a bag of shopping from him, just grabbed it as they were getting off the bus in the village before ours. The bus driver stopped, ran after them, took the bag back, and gave them what sounded like a sound telling-off. Another time the bus broke down on a very hot day, and the bus company took ages sending a replacement bus. Someone living nearby cut open a watermelon and distributed it amongst the passengers, wouldn't take any payment.

So he had negative experiences that felt more like positives. I hope it stays that way!

I'm one of the lucky ones who sneaked in before Brexit (and now have my PR). I totally sympathize with folks now having to deal with the increased red tape and expense of TCNs (Third Country Nationals, in EU-speak).

I encourage you to persevere. I know I'm a broken record on the delights of Bulgaria, but moving here is one of the best decisions I ever made. Our quality of life is FAR beyond anything I've previously experienced, or could now afford elsewhere. Life here is very affordable, and most Bulgarians (especially in the villages) are very welcoming and helpful. Also: plenty of fresh local produce, wide open spaces and spectacular National Parks, very responsive/affordable health care system,

@gwynj just sounds lovely and I so love to read your positive messages!  I first bought a plot (field in village) in 2008, and always had in mind to move permanently, then things took over and couldn't, and I sold the plot just a couple of years ago because it was too big and I felt guilty that in a nice village I was holding up a tumble down house plot.

Anyway, it is what it is and in hindsight I should have boxed clever, but I didn't, so will now do what I can!

PS, I lived in france when uk left EU and britains had to apply for  permission to stay, people who had lived there for 30 years and more years and owned property had to apply .

@gwynj I absolutely endorse everything you've said Gwyn.  Same here.

Same as gwynj that I was lucky to sneak in before Brexit. (Immediate before covid or otherwise it would have been too late.) I have researched a lot of EU countries and Bulgaria "was" or is still the EU country with the lowest living cost. It was not difficult to prove to be a self-sufficient person with a mediocre saving and earning. When I was young, I have stayed in France and even worked in the Government. Silly me that I missed the opportunity to naturalise to become a French citizen because at that time UK was EU. Why bothered? Many years later, I never thought about that the laws had changed and UK quit the EU...I tried to get a residence permit before Brexit in France but it is very complicated and rigid. I also tried Portugal and Belgium but during Brexit, the rules were a bit ambiguous to secure a residency. I agree with most of the fellows here that after Brexit, it is very troublesome to be a Third Country National in the EU. With the ETIAS and EES in future, it is just a mess.

Bulgaria is a nice country and people are very mostly straightforward to tell you YES or NO with minimal time wasted or red tape. Bulgaria is now Schengen and will become a full Eurozone country by August 2025 (their target). It is worth a try if you guys still want to settle in a EU country at relatively low cost. It is never too late.

Cheers.

@janemulberry

Just curious as we definitely don't have 320,000€ (yet , never say never) but would that 320000 have to be in one single property or could it be spread over several, and would yhey have to be purchased all at the same time (or could one accumulate)? So, could one have a property in the mountains, one by the sea and one in a city for example, as long as it all adds up to more than 320,000€?

It's an interesting concept.

We need an immigration lawyer to chime in on that one, I think, but they seem to have gone quiet. I think everyone is being veeeeeery cautious due to the changes in the law.

I wondered the same thing about d visa by property investment, hoping we could start from our existing two little village houses. And then though selling our house in the UK won't net anywhere near the needed amount to qualify, we would like to use some of it on a small apartment in town. Though we wish both our mothers long happy lives, they're now both quite elderly (88 and 97) and chances are that  inheritances may happen in the next few years, which could be invested in apartments or city parking garages to let out...

But something I read suggested it had to be all one investment. Not necessarily one property, but purchased at once as a package. That could have been that particular lawyer's suggestion though, as they are in the business of selling packages of property + immigration assistance!

My understanding is that BG requirements for a "Golden Visa" still fall under Article 24 Paragraph 19 of the Foreigners Law, which states that a real estate investment of BGN600,000* in real estate is required.  I am pretty sure that, unlike most other EU states which offer a GV route to residency, this doesn't have to be in a single property.

*Or BGN250,000 if you are purchasing via a BG mortgage - good luck getting that as a foreigner...