Reasons for leaving Portugal

Correct so it doesn't answer the question.....Should be why are you moving to Portugal ?
-@juliajonesjy

It is actually a very good question it gives members an insight into why people leave the country.

Can you believe people leave Austria because there are no 24-hour shops and they are closed on  Sundays.

Can you believe people leave Austria because there are no 24-hour shops and they are closed on Sundays.
-@SimCityAT

Good question indeed .

I wouldn't think that people leave Austria for that (shop closing hours) reason. I like Austria, because it is so easy for me. I understand the language and there is lots to see and do. It can be a bit expensive, but it is still affordable. Plus it is close to many great other places (Budapest, Prague, the Alps, ...). However, I do not like the weather (especially winter and height of summer) very much. And I don't like the land to the east of Vienna, which looks like a big wind power plant. So, I could easily live there, but at the moment prefer to not do so .

So far, a quick survey of the responses finds only one who left or is leaving.  So it's a very small sample size to draw any conclusions.  I have a hunch that this forum is disproportionately attended by people who haven't moved to Portugal yet, or have moved fairly recently, so answers are naturally going to be scarce and perhaps unrepresentative.

A question left in a corner of an international forum never will become representative of anything (nothing against forum's owners, sorry guys/girls)

but it could help anyone wondering about the interest of settling here or there by offering a bunch of opinions all diverse and representative of the sole point of view of their author

@donn25 Yes. Not representative in any way,, I agree. It cannot reasonably be expected that those that have, or are, planning to buy any product or lifestyle, would be open to the other side of the argument and would tend to show confirmation bias rather than be more willing to accept any real issues with their considered decision.

Eg. Try telling the typical Mercedes buyer that BMW would be a better choice. Or vice versa.

I personally think Portugal is a great place and that as a country it is both welcoming and stable, a wise choice unless, perhaps, you have a young family and without access to high standard education for them.

Nowhere is perfect for everyone, however.

Portugal's tax system, together with its house purchase to rent yields/costs are two major issues for me.

Oh, and the behaviour and delays at the supermarket checkout, naturally. 😂

@nz7521137

We have looked at destination cities for relocation in Italy, Spain and Portugal. We don’t want to live in a rural setting. Escaping 1 million plus cities is our goal. Talking to people who have relocated then delocated will help our decision making. Thanks.

Seems to me that this thread was hijacked by folks that were NOT leaving Portugal. Perhaps there are very few answers regarding the subject matter due to the miniscule amount of folks that are or are thinking of leaving. How about just folks that are leaving and, or thinking of leaving  answer the question. I would very much like unbiased answers. Just like i look for product reviews when buying an item.. i place my judgement based on the negative reviews. Please, stick to the topic.

@vicdagraca I agree. Someone got mad at me because I said the same thing. There is no point asking a specific question if people don't bother answering it and continue to say whatever they feel like saying. Some people just said 'it doesn't matter'.

@bettinakozlowski Welcome! I hope you find all that makes you happy and at home in Portugal

Hi All,

As @vicdagraca said here, if you have nothing relevant to write about the topic, please don't write anything, ok?

Please respect the topic in this thread and in all the others...

Thanks !

It's the lack of hope here. The deep depression of most locals.... Fado is not an accident. When a country's music tells you what it is, believe it. I'm well integrated into life here with mostly Portuguese friends, and they know this to be true too. They don't dream and build futures (not in my circle of friends), they hang on daily to survive.... when systems are so frustrating and conflicting and confusing, you need to ask why. It's to control, and not to empower. Empowered people think for themselves, because they can depend on which way is up. If daily life is constantly topsy turvy, what do you have to direct you and ground you. Can't build anything lasting on shifting sands. The youth especially are leaving because of this sadly,and who can blame them? If you dream, hope and work hard it should matter and pan out for you.

Not leaving yet (but seriously thinking). After a year and a half, these are some of the things that might make us leave:

1) The streets (in Porto, at least) full of dog excrements, spittle, cigarette butts. Which all reflects a certain level of civilization (or lack thereof).

2) The incredible number of dogs Portuguese seems to have and the total lack of consideration of dog owners for their neighbours (who may want to sleep at 11 o'clock at night rather than listen to dogs barking outside)

3) The poor quality of public education and the poor quality, vulgarity and aggressivity of kids in public schools, who in a majority seem mostly interested in their mobile phones, clothes, make-up and not in getting an education (and I am talking about kids who are 9-11 year old!). For this reason we decided to enrol our daughters in a private school for the time being. Hopefully it should be better.

4) The poor and limited culinary habits - I am still trying to get used to seeing small kids having their "breakfast" with a parent in a coffee-shop near school (including an espresso!!! to a 6-7 year-old kid!), mostly bland and boring Portuguese food. We pretty much stopped going to restaurant because the offer is either boring or unhealthy - some kind of fried meat or fish and your choice of pasta, rice or potatoes. A lot of the things we are used to and enjoyed practically all over the world are absent here (my wife's Portuguese teacher seemed amazed to hear that corn on the cob can actually be boiled and consumed by humans!). Things that I was able to find in most countries I lived in like Romania, China, Canada, are absent here or very very hard to find.

5) Mixed feelings about the medical system - the waiting times seem enormous, even longer than in Canada. And there seems to be an almost complete disconnect between family doctors, labs and specialists. I can't imagine why it is so hard for the labs to send all the reports directly to the family doctor instead of having the patient carrying them. And I cannot imagine why private doctors don't provide any reports unless asked by patient. I can easily imagine the patient suffering in the end because of this lack of communication between the various segments of the medical system.

So these are a few of the most important things that might in the end make us leave Portugal.

I don't mean to say that there are no positives here. There are, and because of them we are still here. But there is also quite a degree of disappointment, which is being reinforced pretty much daily by one or another of the things mentioned above.

@ctomac

Hi ctomac.

It is very interesting to read your disappointing points about living in Porto/Portugal.

Ad 1) While I understand what you write, I was more worried about the very slippery surfaced in Porto during the wet period of the year. Maybe dog poo plays a role, but walking surfaces for pedestrians all over Portugal are very poor.

Ad 2) I fully agree and we have similar issues.

Ad 4) I would say that there is a very good selection of foods in our local markets and supermarkets and we can make at home whatever we like. I largely agree about the restaurants, but as we are close to Lisbon we can find what we like. However, I still understand what you say. Keep in mind that there are many places where the situation is very much worse.

Ad 5) I recently started a thread about the quality of medical care in Portugal (with no response), but your contribution would fit there as well. I also see the disconnect between our private GP, labs results and specialists. And this is within CUF. GP prescribes lab tests and only I get the results and may or may not discuss these in a separate appointment with the GP or immediately go to a specialist. Fortunately I have friends in the medical “industry” that I can ask for advice.

Having no kids and not having to work makes Portugal a top location for us. However, depending on the personal circumstances you might feel differently.

@Ctomac,

If you can find a place where all people (locals, tourists, expats and immigrants) have had access to the same education I got, have the same civilisational behaviours I have, have had the same life opportunities and economic conditions I have enjoyed, have the same demands that, like you, I would also like to see in the public space, and by the way, have the same habits, the same religion, the same society concepts and party ideology, etc, etc... please let me know, ok?

Many of us here in this forum, would also choose that place to live .... but... then that place would turn out to be completely different from the one that made you go there to live, right? ... But it's always good to keep hope, that's what keeps us alive...

@JohnnyPT Having lived in many (?) places I would say that nowhere is perfect, but almost everywhere (I know) is pretty good. Which is a great experience for us. There are a few places I wouldn't want to be at the moment, but overall we could live and be happy in many places on this planet.

The points that ctomac makes are quite valid for me. Do they warrant leaving. I would say "NO". But some might say "YES" and maybe they find the place they love best.

@nz7521137

"Ad 4) I would say that there is a very good selection of foods in our local markets and supermarkets and we can make at home whatever we like. I largely agree about the restaurants, but as we are close to Lisbon we can find what we like. However, I still understand what you say. Keep in mind that there are many places where the situation is very much worse."

We browsed all kinds of markets and supermarkets, but are not impressed. Coming from Canada (which is by excellence a country of immigrants from all over the world) and after having access there to almost any kind of food that we were looking for (there were still things we were missing there as well), the offer in Portugal seems relatively poor(er).

We do cook at home too - a mix of Romanian, Ukrainian, Chinese and Italian mainly, with a couple of interesting Portuguese recipes thrown in (we really liked the feijoada de mariscos I made at home, as well as a few other bacalhau-based salads and such).

But then again, we have not moved to Portugal for the food, so this is not really one of the biggest issues. But it is an issue nevertheless.

@JohnnyPT

It seems to me that you missed the point of what I was saying, as well as taking it personally for some reason.

After living in Romania, China, Hong Kong, Quebec, British Columbia and now Portugal in the last 30 years I know that the perfect place does not exist. There are places more or less tolerable, depending on one's priorities.

The uniformity of religion, customs, politics and so on that you were talking about derisively, it seems, is boring and probably worse than any of the points I made. On the contrary, I would like to see even more diversity in Portugal. But then I understand that the country is on the Western edge of Europe, and contact with other European countries and peoples, other than Spain, is quite limited, therefore a great diversity is not really to be expected.

I believe the points I made, however, to be absolutely valid, and it seems that other forum members feel the same.

Wouldn't YOU like it if all people collected their dogs' excrement? or if people stopped spitting all over the place? or if people paid more attention to the noise their pets make late at night? if there were less smokers everywhere, or if at least the smokers didn't throw their cigarette butts on the streets? or, how would YOU like to see your (native-English-speaking) children learn their first English cuss words within one month after starting school in Portugal? and the teachers not giving a damn about what kids do and say while at school?... I could go on, but I will stop here, I made my point already.

No place is perfect, and there is place for improvement anywhere in the world. So instead of taking critique personally try to see first if there's anything that you and we all could do to make things better.

I've been run into the ground with Portugal, the systems are confusing especially when given conflicting information by  everyone, I WAS FINED A 100E  for what? i don't know, I was told if i didn't pay I would go to court, the guy in finances couldn't even tell me. I said I'd appeal , he laughed and said not worth the aggravation. There is no such thing as customer loyalty or customer service. Trying to contact any government department is absurdly frustrating. Asking questions is hilarious as advice does not correspond with the question. I've had enough of having shoulders shrugged at me response to 'what do I do next', I have had enough of being spoken to as though im stupid! I've had people completely ignore me and disrespect me. I haven't decided yet if its because, I'm british, female or here on my own. These are the reasons I want to leave.

Not the food, people or daily life.... health care, shops or the opening times of shops.

@Ctomac,

Regarding diversity, nowadays, this is not an issue. There are immigrants from all countries in Portugal, including thousands from your country Romania and Ukraine. And all products are available, although not as much as in other countries where the population is larger and the purchasing power is higher as well.

As for dogs' excrement, that is punishable by law. The fine can range from 75 euros to 350 euros. You can report it to the Câmara do Porto for more care in this hygienic cleaning. Unfortunately there can't be a policeman behind every person:

https://www.portoambiente.pt/boas-prati … os-animais

As for cigarette butts, there are also fines from 25 to 250 euros.

https://www.portoambiente.pt/boas-prati … ais/beatas

I would just like to remind you that Porto is a peculiar city and it is completely different from the rest of the country. They are arrogant, self-centred, speak loudly and use a lot of slang. The way Porto people talk smack scares any Portuguese person. It's part of their culture. In Porto, swearing, most of the time, is an interjection, not intended to offend. The same words in the rest of the country have a much more negative weight. In Porto, everyone swears, from the kid before going to school to the elderly and wealthy women. It's like that, what to say?

On top of that there's also a part low-income population, facing great difficulties and poorly educated.

In conclusion, in Porto it is very difficult to change behaviours, especially when it comes to stopping talking rubbish. I don't take your criticism personally, because I'm not from Porto, nor do I have those behaviours. That doesn't affect me

What does affect me is some expats writing here what they want, without understanding the cultural context, which in this case, is about Porto and, at least, please try to avoiding making generalizations.... ok? Thanks

As for the street pavements, the Portuguese calçada has a tradition of hundreds of years. Many municipalities are replacing it with comfortable pavement. But that costs money, and it's hard to change that everywhere.

If there's anything that you could do to make things better? Of course, you should report the cases you consider that should improve, inadmissible or not, to the local authorities, in particular the Porto City Hall.

Online form reporting city issues such as pets, hygiene and cleaning, walks and pavements, gardens, ...

https://online.cm-porto.pt/atendimentoo … p;expauth=

@Liz,

Saying what you want here is easy without context or justification. There are proper channels to make complaints. Search here on the forum.

@JohnnyPT "please try to avoiding making generalizations.... ok? Thanks"

If you read my post carefully you will notice that I specifically wrote "(in Porto, at least)" right at the beginning. It should be clear for anyone willing to understand that I am talking about our experience while living in Porto, and not generalizing anything.

As for all products being available - that is simply not true. Not in Porto, at least. After a year and a half here there are quite a few things that are pretty common in most other countries but we are not able to find anywhere in Porto.

And about making complaints about cigarette butts and spittle and dog poop - that must be a joke, if not - well, good luck with that complaint! This should not even be a policing matter, but a matter of education, civilization and respect for other people.

@lizlizwilde80

Ha, ha! You just reminded me of the time, one year ago, when I was trying to find out what documents we need in order to get the numero de utente for healthcare. I called SNS24 and asked at USF, and three different people gave me three completely different lists with the documents I had to provide.

No single document appeared on more than one list,

So yeah, I totally get what you are talking about...  ))

About the NHS, if you had read this here, it might have helped you:

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=902977

As for the complaints issues, they are necessary, although they could be avoidable. Unfortunately, not all people (locals,tourists, expats and immigrants) shows behaviour according to our own education and standards ...

@ctomac I think that if it really matter to you not getting some items in Porto that you could get at a previous home then maybe you should really consider moving (either within Portugal or elsewhere). Living not far from Lisbon and being able to buy much stuff ver the Internet we don't have an issue. However, there are some fresh food items we had elsewhere in the world which are unavailable here. However, that is the good part of the world. Imagine everything would be the same everywhere.

I would not want to live in Porto simply because of the terrain combined with the slippery surfaces, which are really dangerous. Overall the quality of walkways in Portugal is very bad and it shows a lack of care by the leadership on all levels that this isn't solved. In 99% of cases the "driveways" are of better quality. If I had a mobility problem then I would definitely leave Portugal (if I could).

it's a pity that every comment related to the subject generates a whole page of comments on the comment, all off the original subject

every immigrant has to accept the customs and habits of their host country, complaining about them doesn't help, possibly using the tools suggested by @JohnnyPT to try change mentalities, but we have to accept that this is a long-term process that will take more than one generation.

For me, my hope is that it remain as it is now for as long as possible.

every immigrant has to accept the customs and habits of their host country, complaining about them doesn't help, possibly using the tools suggested by @JohnnyPT to try change mentalities, but we have to accept that this is a long-term process that will take more than one generation.

-@boutdechou39

I agree and I think this is a two way street. The Portuguese also have to accept how immigrants are changing their society. Especially as the Portuguese government is actively looking for immigrants (preferably those with money). I wonder how the Portuguese are thinking about this.

I like it in Portugal also because I know that nowhere is perfect. However, situation/requirements/preferences change over life and then one might have to look elsewhere.

it's a pity that every comment related to the subject generates a whole page of comments on the comment, all off the original subject
every immigrant has to accept the customs and habits of their host country, complaining about them doesn't help, possibly using the tools suggested by @JohnnyPT to try change mentalities, but we have to accept that this is a long-term process that will take more than one generation.

For me, my hope is that it remain as it is now for as long as possible.
-@boutdechou39

But there are lots of reasons why people leave a country, its not always accepting the customs of the country.

@roz66 Hello Roz,

My wife and I live in Tampa, Florida and we are planning on relocating to Caldas da Rainha in August.  We purchased an apartment there this past January.  We have spent a lot of time exploring Europe looking for a place to retire.  After a lot of looking, we decided on Portugal.  NO, it is not perfect but as has been said, there is not perfect place in the World.  So one has to decide what is important to themselves.  Portugal and in particlar, Caldas meets most of our desires and needs.  We would love to meet you sometime for a glass of wine or cup of coffee. 

Max & Lana

Hello everyone,

Please note that I have put aside some posts from this thread.

Regards

Bhavna

@slugsurmamates

Hello,

Just an FYI: As far as Thailand being safe as Portugal in your opinion,  Portugal was ranked  6th safest country in the world in 2022 while Thailand was ranked 103.

stay safe.

I moved from Canada to Portugal three years ago and am very happy with my choice.

Embracing the differences and adapting to a new culture can be a rewarding journey. Enjoying the climate, being near the ocean, and having easy access to other parts of Europe also has wonderful advantages.

Make an attempt to learn the language, accept the quirky bureaucracy, and don”t expect things to be the same as what you left  behind. After all,  isn’t that why you moved here?