Pool Reform Petition gaining momentum

Its moving in the right direction thats the main thing ... But if everyone posted it to their various groups it may gather more momentum.. .standing at 6021 now..

I think historically Cyprus authorities have stuck their heads in the sand and ignored their own laws...too lazy to review them in 31yrs.. and as such nothing got done it's only this last few years and was initially just Paphos district taking the hard line .. but now Peyia municipality are following suit ... It was meant to be reviewed in 2012 2016 2019 and more recently August 2022

@Toon yep - I've shared on my private social media as it also affects those looking to take a holiday in Cyprus.  I used to work at the University of Nottingham as an administrator for a high level EU Law programme for policy makers, etc, so have a good few connections via LinkedIn....sadly though it was public procurement law rather than property law (but the most popular module was Corruption and Collusion in Public Procurement lol)

It's an EU standard though many think it is a law .. it was never implemented by Cyprus and I doubt they even took the special derogation route to opt out and has some how got lost in the red tape of  Administration.

@Toon yes I understand this - and the Cypriot state law overrides any EU recommendations if they don't want to change anything.  Surely one day (soon) they'll see the light on this one, although I'm not holding my breath as it's been going on since at least 2007/8

Correct ..Sega,sega ... Slowly slowly .  We can but hope ..

The potential for mis selling lawsuits is horrendous .

Lawyers not catching the pool regulations .. some title deeds are now having notes attached about unlicensed pools .. estate agents not disclosing closed pools sellers not disclosing closures and buy to letters on rental platforms the same

can you imagine the scenario of holidaymakers or rogue owners ignoring the law and getting caught swimming or sunbathing around the pool then finding out they each get fined .. then each property owning operator (by way of shared ownership) of the pool on the complex getting fined too .... It is my belief that a committee of x in number cannot be deemed a responsible person. (Singular)..What owner in their right mind would take on that responsibility and liability when so many others don't care can't be bothered and don't give a stuff..... So looking at it from another angle if a non owner renter holidaymaker or rogue owner uses the unlicensed pool risking getting caught and fined meaning everyone getting fined we might as well all just use the pool anyway ...as we could all get fined not using it

@Toon absolutely agree ref the misselling - we in fact have raised this exact question with our lawyer several times to clarify a) does our complex have a licence/permit, b) details of the communal fee breakdown to show if we are paying for the lifeguard services, c) asking if the pool is currently closed due to not meeting relevant regulations/laws.  This was back in February and we are due to complete in early July (currently just the reservation deposit paid) - so as it stands, we haven't got anything definitive on exactly what is what on the complex we are looking at moving to!  It would be ideal if there was somewhere we could check to see details of current complexes and whether compliant, closed or operating illegally.  So we are yet again waiting to hear from the lawyer who is closed until later this week - could mean we actually decide to pull out of this purchase and look at getting a rented private villa....watch this space.

Licences permits including signed off building permits and completion certificates.. as many properties have been built and sold not complying with permits issued so be very very careful .. also ask to see a copy of the complex books incl non payers under payers etc. And program of works ..   We got a shock as we have found out we have 5 non payers 3 of them amounting to €20k plus in unpaid fees etc and 2 under payers

So good luck and hope we get changes and clarity  andi it works out for you..

Ohh...looks like there's another entity getting on board with this who apparently have internal contacts within government and are arranging to present to numerous department to lobby for some sense to be applied.  Here's a post from the Cyprus International Residents Association from today:

Ludicrous, ridiculous and completely out of touch!

This is the way many homeowners and tenants on complexes have described the laws governing the use of communal pools.

Fencing, lifeguards, hours of operation and a number of other clauses and requirements have been stipulated in order for people to enjoy the facilities they have paid for. Let's face it, many people buy a home on a complex using the fact that it has a maintained pool as a major factor in their decision-making process.

It seems that one of my fellow countrymen, working in one of the ministries in Nicosia needed to justify his job and after a few to many frappes decided the best way to do so, was to create an issue that will take years to resolve. That way he has a job for the foreseeable future as this mess will take quite a while to resolve.

After all it's already been going for many years.

In fairness, the initial framework for these decisions came from the EU but are completely unrealistic and unaffordable when it comes to small complexes, or those that have been built to a lesser specification than is required to meet the current criteria.

Some of the regulations are sensible and do make the pool, surrounding area safer and do also look after the wellbeing of the swimmer. Sense though in this situation is far outweighed by impractical and unaffordable requirements applied in order for a complex and it's residents to obtain the relevant licenses.

When you purchased your dream property or holiday home, the last thing you had on your mind was paying up to €30,000 per annum for lifeguards or tens of thousands to bring the communal pool area up to specification.

We will be presenting this issue to various ministries including the ministry of Interior, The Ministry of Energy, Commerce, Industry and Tourism and the Attorney General's office, seeking some clarification on behalf of our members, with the aim to try and encourage a new classification for communal pools that are realistic and fair.

Hopefully sense will prevail

Contact us by email [email protected]

www.cyira.org

I would suggest to anyone expecting to purchase or rent on a complex with a communal pool to hold off from doing so... As its almost certain the pool is illegal unlicensed and will be if not already closed......

It's a horrible situation as well as a ludicrous one .

The lack of valid Licencing and the presence of a lifeguard during operating hours should be found in the lawyers due diligence and of course the buyer own due diligence but they haven't been until recently .  One complex property owner can't sell without the licence .....

@Toon have just written our lawyers a detailed and comprehensive email advising our concerns about lack of access to communal pool (and parking) advising we believe we have been missold the apartment as no notification from agent about the situation (plus clearly states in the sales literature that there is access to a communal pool and covered parking).  So as it stands we are thinking about reducing our offer to compensate for said lack of ameneties or, worst case, we will withdraw our offer.  However, we love the apartment we have chosen and we do have space to install a jacuzzi/spa tub so at least we'll have an option to have a cooling dip when needed.  It's definitely a very complex and draining issue.

@Toon yes but surprise, surprise the letting agents and estate agents are saying nothing to the prospective buyers

We have 3 town houses for sale on our development and it's not been mentioned

We also have properties that were bank repossessed houses that have been sold and they have been listed with a communal pool

its all bloody annoying 😡

And no doubt properties rented short term via holiday letting platforms all advertising communal pools but no mention of being closed... And what's more the very high likelihood that resident owners denied access will tell them its closed and they need to stop swimming and sunbathing as that exposes themselves and every pool Operating co-owner to the same fine as them...

The conflict will be like nuclear fallout

@Sam&Bob Yes i understand as we also still love our apartment despite the pool restriction .. however if we wanted to sell we would have to take one helluva hit.. luckily we don't want to sell... and can use the beach if we need to ...

The number of buried heads in the sand are numerous in so many fields of property and tourism... Lawyers..estate agents ...CTO ...owners ...renters.. holiday letters and the platforms used.

Even a local property management company has now advertised for licensed lifeguards... Recognising a commercial opportunity.... ... Trouble is they are thin on the ground ..as the average wage is only in the region of €1000 per month ....

@alisonrich1958 not just bloody annoying but criminal

Currently

Sellers should have disclosed illegality of Pool

Buyers are being misled

Lawyers should have picked up on the illegality of the communal pools as the law has been in place for 31 years

Agents are not disclosing illegality of pools.. they do have to disclose whether there are title deeds or issues with potential landslip so why not poool licensing

CTO should be asking questions about pool licencing to the same degree as property safety fire alarms smoke alarms fire equipment elec safety certs etc so why not lifeguard

Similarly short term rental.platforms I bet they are not even aware and are not being told .. owners of  property using these platforms also keeping quiet about it too.

The holiday makers paying upfront and not finding out about the matter until they get to the property with pool closed signs ....

This is not good for Cyprus not good for tourism not good for owners not good for tenants not good for short term letters not good for those in middle of buying/renting process or those who have completed recently....

The knock on effect to developers and sales is also a matter of concern

Let's hope it changes and common sense prevails

Absolutely Toon, everything you have said is bloody common sense , we can see it so why on earth can't they!

I think they can see it but as most are probably owned by foreigners who can't vote so those in power can't see any benefit to them

I was involved on the periphery way back when the laws were being drafted. (I was a RLSS National Lifeguard Trainer in Cyprus, back in the day -1990. The discussions then were on topics such as Access to the pool (private or restricted), the biggest problem was on pool depth - many pool owners partly filled in their pool the the maximum permitted depth, then there was signage and finally the possible need of Lifeguards or trained lifesavers. Some locations have all of the staff, that work in the vicinity of a pool, required to be first aid qualified and capable of performing CPR. A very complex topic which I am now not competent to advise on, unfortunately.

Our communal pool is max 1.4m and is closed

I stayed for vacation many times in Kings Palace Apartments TOTK Rd. Large pool and over the last 15 years no life guard or signs. As a holiday maker I was not aware of the requirements and the apartment owner never communicated it. I was there in Dec 2022 for 1 month when I first arrive to live here and there were small children using the pool. The complex is private but open access to the pool. Developer is Leptos so may be they are able to have a blind eye from the authorities as the owners of both apartments I stayed in were never fined!

Communal pools used by more than one household are in the eyes of this ludicrous unrealistic unaffordable 1992 swimming pool law are regarded as public... And must have a licence and a lifeguard physically present to get that licence.... The blind eye you speak of goes right back to lawyers sellers hotels owners rental platform estate agents developers and Municipalities....

You would think with all the financial impacts on tourism etc they would rush to sort this out.. 31years this has been in place...

Hotels have a powerful voting lobby foreign investors don't ..... Fines and court appearances have happened .... Private resident communal pools are being closed ... But not hotels pools. Some hotels have lifeguards and safety fences etc many as you rightly point out dont...I've not heard of one hotel pool being closed but many complex pools have .....Impacting on owners renters holidaymakers service companies estate agents etc

Hotels have historically complained about the rise of private self catering accommodation being available without licensing and now many have been forced to get the CTO licences... so now the swimming pool restriction is being enforced one has to wonder why.... I think it's easy to hazard a guess

Just got this .....

Dear sir,

Further to your email message concerning swimming pools regulations, I would like to inform you that a new legislation for the operation of swimming pools in Cyprus is nowadays under consideration by the Ministry of Interior. We anticipate that the new legislation will alleviate problems that different types of establishments are now facing.

BR 

Marios Chanakas

Tourism Officer A'

Directorate of Quality Assurance and Licensing of

Tourist Enterprises | Deputy Ministry of Tourism

+357 22691234

[email protected]

www.visitcyprus.com, www.tourism.gov.cy

19 Limassol Avenue, 2112, Aglantzia, Cyprus

@Toon ohhh....perhaps, just perhaps it may finally be resolved.  How long shall I hold my breath for eh?  We're due to complete our UK property in 4 weeks and as it stands, we may not have anywhere to go if our sale in Cyprus hits the buffers

@Toon have you shared this elsewhere - if not, can I share this on my various FB platforms?

Yes I have shared it ..  but don't hold your breath as things happen slowly. But in fairness I only contacted them yesterday 8am and got the reply  this afternoon

Fill your boots guys and share but dont lose focus on what needs to be done just in case

A little aside..

I had previously (pre latest pool debacle) contacted a few estate agents to provide details of suitable properties for a second purchase as a holiday "getaway from peyia" break... I love the place but got to get away from peyianation street now and again....

And then this last week or so contacted them again about our prospective purchase being put on hold until the 1992 swimming pool law was resolved.....two of them have replied so far... had no clue .... Or so they say and a third made no further comment ...

Message from a friend of mine in the property management business in Paphos District ... Receive today.

"We had official notices from the Paphos District Office and one complex was served court order when they got out the car....8 out of 24 owners names on court order including the developer, who was long gone. They had to pay for a lawyer

And

"One complex got an official notice. Closed with tape and it is surrounded by a wall at back of 8 apartments. Took photo sent to District office (only 2 people work in this office). Not good enough..... so they have recently drained it..... watch this space"

When asked about timeline ..CTO reply .... This morning

Dear sir,

Further to your email message 21.04.2023 concerning the timeframe, it is very difficult someone to give precise date.

Perhaps the Ministry of Interior can give you an indication.

BR

Marios Chanakas

Tourism Officer A'

Directorate of Quality Assurance and Licensing of

Tourist Enterprises | Deputy Ministry of Tourism

+357 22691234

[email protected]

www.visitcyprus.com, www.tourism.gov.cy

19 Limassol Avenue, 2112, Aglantzia, Cyprus

7010 on the petition now so getting closer every day to the target 8000

@Toon  Missed this conversation Toon, really sorry to hear your pool is closed 😏

Have they given you a reason why it's been closed down except of course the life guards situation

We as a complex have done everything on the list, fencing,  gates to pool outside all homes etc

Just wondering if a company like Rock FM could highlight the problem and give it a bit of air time as I am sure there are alot of people out there that are completely oblivious regarding this

Closed as no lifeguard thus no licence thus closed ... All other documentation is in place ... Gates & fences our committee wouldn't agree to mainly because of money but the owners physically present and on zoom (10% of owners) at AGM refused to agree to them being placed as they.didnt want to see them despite most using a beach for the 3-5 weeks per yr they visit.... All the signs are in place but apparently that is not enough to safeguard against illegal use

And you are correct lots of owners are oblivious to the reality of the law of a country they are a guest in. Then there are those who encourage breaking the law to do whatever they want and thus put others at risk.

Bottomline is it's a national law ...nobody has to like it nobody has to agree with it ... But we do have to abide by it.  .  Or accept the consequences

.....

@Toon   7055 now !

Yes it's slow but sure maybe reach target in 10 days

Is there a url to vote for this as I am happy to add my name?

@phildraper cheers

Just scroll down to the bottom

https://www.gopetition.com/petitions/ca … sorts.html

QUESTIONS IVE BEEN ASKING MYSELF AND MAYBE INTERESTED PARTIES SHOULD BE ASKING THEMSELVES

Do you have a trained "certified for work in Cyprus" lifeguard on duty during all hours of pool operation.

Is your communal swimming pool open without a license

Has your complex taken action to ensure the communal pool cannot be used illegally. What actions have been taken. Are those actions effective Are you as a co owner satisfied that the actions taken are reasonable and that you are complying with the law

Do you have a valid communal swimming pool licence

Do you know who the operator of the complex communal pool is. Are you aware that every shared ownership property owner is regarded as the shared pool operator.. Shared ownership shared cost and shared liability.

Why are developers still allowed to build sell and rent properties with communal pools and not warn buyers and renters of licensing requirements to enable pool usage

Why are municipalities signing off developments without the required permits and swimming pool licenses in place

Municipalities are charged with enforcement of national law as well as local Municipality law... the Swimming pool law of 1992 and the 1996 amendment. Are they enforcing it where you are. Have you asked them what they are doing. Remember your municipality is not above and beyond the law

Why are lawyers not spotting pool licensing infringements when conveyancing. Isn't that what one would expect of due diligence. if they do why are they not warning buyers

Has your prospective purchase any notes relating to communal swimming pool law attached to its title deeds...

Is lack of communal pool licence preventing you from selling your property

Why are estate agents not asking sellers if the property communal pool is open with valid licence and lifeguard or open without them) and why are they not disclosing this to buyers in adverts before during or after viewings and issuing a warning of consequences

Why are the CTO not asking for communal pool legality as part of the CTO short term lettings licence application, surely they have a duty to do so ..after all they demand other safety requirements

Why are short term letters not disclosing communal pool open/closed to holidaymakers pre booking....IE in their online rental platform ads... After all that could lead to disappointment conflict and potential litigation

Why are long term letters not disclosing communal pool legality to their tenants pre contract

In the case of liability for using an unlicensed pool and the sunbathing area around it. Who is liable? Who gets court order who gets fined. Who must go to court

Who is liable and can be sued in the event of a fatal or other serious reportable incident in an unlicensed communal swimming pool or sun bathing around it

Does the communal area public liability insurance cover liability claims in such an event

Has every owner on your complex with a communal swimming pool been consulted and or informed of the current situation and the consequences of failing to abide by the swimming pool law and addressing the problem

If you are buying are your consulting agents for prospective property purchase or rentals advising you of current situation on illegally open and closed pools

Why is it taking so long to resolve the swimming pool law 1992

Why are the EU standards not being applied

Its fine to have an opinion on the law and it's impact on everyone.. but as guests in this country we don't have to like the law we don't have to agree with it but we are obligated to abide by the law...

I fail to see the logic behind anyone who legally lives here promoting breaking national law. Ok if that's what you want to do... but very selfish when you know that you and your guests actions impact on others ... Its not just the individual in that gets penalised

Signed it :-)

@phildraper Thank you