Strangers in my apartment: what's culturally acceptable behavior?

KruChris wrote:

Am not trying to start a Vietnamese bashing here.

Very smart of you to let strangers into your apartment and then bitch about it online.

QuidProQuo wrote:

KruChris wrote:

Am not trying to start a Vietnamese bashing here.

Very smart [URL removed] of you to let strangers into your apartment and then bitch about it online.

...to MORE strangers!

QuidProQuo wrote:

KruChris wrote:

Am not trying to start a Vietnamese bashing here.

Very smart of you to let strangers into your apartment and then bitch about it online.

Where did he say that they were strangers?

colinoscapee wrote:

Where did he say that they were strangers?

He said that in the title of the thread.

KruChris wrote:

Yesterday, someone needed my apartment for a meeting. A teenager was accompanied by his father. Both felt it perfectly normal to i. open doors and ii. then they disappeared into my bedroom. Minutes later, they re-appeared.

1.  Unless you have your front door wide open, how did they enter?
2.  Unless they told you the purpose of their "visit", how did you know they needed your place for a meeting?

KruChris wrote:

To me, that's very rude behavior.  What were they doing in there? And: Is this "common", "normal" behavior?
I also committed a faux pas by asking for "say sauce" - they didn't have any!

3.  What did you do the entire time, just sat there watching?  Their rudeness aside, I would've to say that in your case, inaction is the same as acceptance.
4.  What were you trying to say to them when you said "say sauce"?  Was there a meaning in that term?

Ciambella wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

Where did he say that they were strangers?

He said that on the title of the thread.

My mistake. I read the text, didnt look at the heading.

QuidProQuo wrote:

KruChris wrote:

Am not trying to start a Vietnamese bashing here.

Very smart of you to let strangers into your apartment and then bitch about it online.

Well, they were the party a family member of the landlady was to meet...

My bad: hours later, I was invited to lunch. And I was rude and committed the faux pas by asking for "soy sauce", which they didn't have. (I assumed, any family would have some sauces in their larder. But apparently not?


i had been doing computer work and wanted to avoid making a scene.

Guess such experiences explains why business put signs on doors saying "private" or "staff only" 

This thread ought to win the prize of Weirdest Thread of the Year.

KruChris wrote:

.....
They knew there was a second toilet.
....

If they knew this, it's definitely unacceptable behaviour.

My landlord and his wife (both Vietnamese) visited last night with their two small children. The smaller kid wanted to use the toilet. Landlord's wife led him to the second toilet, not the one in my bedroom.

KruChris wrote:

And I was rude and committed the faux pas by asking for "soy sauce", which they didn't have. (I assumed, any family would have some sauces in their larder. But apparently not?

Actually they probably do but not in the little tabletop Kikoman bottle that you may have learned to expect in Chinese restaurants in the US.  The bottle in the kitchen may be liter sized and not at all suitable for the table.  In a private home, seasoning the food is a responsibility of the the cook, not the guests.

As well, (any) competent cook would be offended to see you adding a sauce
to a meal prepared by their skilled hands...    (esp. in a private home)

A faux pas indeed...     

Bazza139 wrote:

As well, (any) competent cook would be offended to see you adding a sauce
to a meal prepared by their skilled hands...    (esp. in a private home)

A faux pas indeed...     

Especially Ketchup! 

KruChris wrote:

I also committed a faux pas by asking for "say sauce" - they didn't have any!

What was the dish (food)? If it's a dish that you dip in Soy sauce, the sauce comes in a little ceramic dish.
I believe Vietnamese have a tendency to use fish sauce (Nước mắm) more than Soy sauce (usually no sign of fish) when it's added by the cook. Again, probably depends on the dish. Both the sauces have many varieties and are different kettles of fish.

I just get pissed when they light up cigarettes and not even ask - I quickly tell them to smoke outside, they look at you like you are the worst host on earth because you don't like he smell of cigarettes.

Learn how to say: "Tôi bị dị ứng với khói thuốc" (I am allergic to smoke).

Why lie.  Smoking etiquette is one area where Vietnam really does need to accept cultural imperialism and get in line with the major nations of earth.

Who is lying? Second-hand smoke is no good for anyone. I agree with you that the Viets need to change their mindset about tobacco. It's almost a cultural identity.

You suggested that tunnelrat69 should claim an allergy that he may not have.  He said he does not like the smell.   What I say is that you don't need to claim fictitious allergies.  If it is your house, you make the rules on smoking.  On the other hand if you are a guest in someone else's house, either suffer in silence or discretely move outdoors.

Agreed. The thread is titled "Strangers in my apartment". Perhaps the thread moved somewhere else while I wasn't looking. If it's like the Vietnamese woman thread it could be on another planet by now.

Another planet..?    Stranger than strange...

I come from Uranus, but few believe me...

Time to return, methinks...     

They probably didn't understand "soy sauce". Next time ask for "see-yow".

Nicely put. Thanks

THIGV wrote:

KruChris wrote:

And I was rude and committed the faux pas by asking for "soy sauce", which they didn't have. (I assumed, any family would have some sauces in their larder. But apparently not?

Actually they probably do but not in the little tabletop Kikoman bottle that you may have learned to expect in Chinese restaurants in the US.  The bottle in the kitchen may be liter sized and not at all suitable for the table.  In a private home, seasoning the food is a responsibility of the the cook, not the guests.

Nicely Put. Thanks.

Wxx3 wrote:

THIGV wrote:

KruChris wrote:

And I was rude and committed the faux pas by asking for "soy sauce", which they didn't have. (I assumed, any family would have some sauces in their larder. But apparently not?

Actually they probably do but not in the little tabletop Kikoman bottle that you may have learned to expect in Chinese restaurants in the US.  The bottle in the kitchen may be liter sized and not at all suitable for the table.  In a private home, seasoning the food is a responsibility of the the cook, not the guests.

Nicely Put. Thanks.

I dont think I have ever been to a house or restaurant in Viet Nam that doesn't have nước tương(soy sauce). Maybe they were soy free eaters.

Jim-Minh wrote:

Agreed. The thread is titled "Strangers in my apartment". Perhaps the thread moved somewhere else while I wasn't looking. If it's like the Vietnamese woman thread it could be on another planet by now.

Those who complain about threads that meander, especially after the basic question has been answered, should take a look a Dave's ESL Vietnam for a forum that was killed by over regulation.  (I won't post a link but you can find it fairly easily.)  There, moderators established a 300 word limit late last November and stomped hard on a very active thread during December.  Since then there have been only about 35 threads started including those that get no reply where there once was lively discussion.  This forum by contrast gets at least 10 new threads every week and often a lot more.  Letting people discuss what they will is what makes a forum interesting. 

Besides that, isn't a discussion of smoking in one's apartment a discussion of "what's culturally acceptable behavior?"

Jim-Minh wrote:

Learn how to say: "Tôi bị dị ứng với khói thuốc" (I am allergic to smoke).

Apologies for being picky (I'm not. Just trying to learn some Vietnamese along the way).

Doesn't "Tôi bị dị ứng với khói thuốc" mean "I'm allergic to cigarette smoke"?

Can I also say (I'm asking purely from a language perspective. i.e. is it used widely or does it sound awkward):

Tôi bị dị ứng với khói thuốc lá - "I'm allergic to tobacco smoke".

It's perfectly fine to ask all kinds of questions about other languages.  I do that daily.

Here are the answers, in details:

First, not one Vietnamese would differentiate between the terms smoke, cigarette smoke, and cigar smoke.  When you say you're allergic to smoke, everyone would understand that you're allergic to the smoke that is wafting toward you, or about to waft toward you.  Everyone would also understand that your allergy doesn't discriminate against the source, that it dislikes all kinds of smoke equally.

Second, the sentence "Tôi bị dị ứng với khói thuốc" can be translated as "I'm allergic to cigarette smoke" or "I'm allergic to tobacco smoke".  The two English translations are equally correct, Google Translate notwithstanding. 

Third, both Vietnamese sentences are perfect.  They have the same meaning, and both are used alternately.

Third, tobacco is the common ingredient in cigarette, cigar, and pipe.  Therefore, the sentence "Tôi bị dị ứng với khói thuốc" would be the same to Vietnamese as the sentence "Tôi bị dị ứng với khói thuốc lá."  Most doctors believe that smoke allergy is caused by the toxic ingredients in tobacco itself, and the smoke is only the delivery boy, so when a person is allergic to cigarette smoke, it's almost a given that s/he would be allergic to cigar smoke and pipe smoke as well.

thuốc - tobacco
thuốc lá.- tobacco leaf
Interesting to note that in both cases it is regarded as a drug

Jim-Minh wrote:

thuốc - tobacco
thuốc lá.- tobacco leaf
Interesting to note that in both cases it is regarded as a drug

Yes, yet we won't see any 'thuốc' (tobacco) or 'thuốc lá' (tobacco leaf) in the 'nhà thuốc' (drug store/chemist*/pharmacy).

* - those not familiar with U.K wondering what a 'chemist' is. It's the same as 'pharmacy'.

Actually, "thuốc" by itself means medicine.   The word that goes before or after thuốc changes the meaning of the term.   For instance:

Thuốc lá:  cigarette and tobacco leaf (either / or / both)
Thuốc lào:  Vietnamese tobacco used in water-filtered pipes (bongs)
Thuốc phiện:  opium
Thuốc Tây:  Western medicine
Thuốc ta (Thuốc bắc):  Eastern medicine
Thuốc nổ:  gunpowder
Thuốc tê:  anesthetic
Thuốc trừ sâu:  pesticide/s
Thầy thuốc:  physician, can be used for healer as well
Uống thuốc:  take medicine
Viên thuốc:  pill/s or tablet/s
Đơn thuốc:  prescription
Chạy thuốc:  urgently seeking a certain medicine

I should have expanded on my post.

drug = thuốc uống

cigarette = thuốc lá

take medicine =uống thuốc

smoke cigarette = hút thuốc lá

There's a common thread there

Ciambella did a much better job than I  (we were composing our posts simultaneously)

Natcherly.   

Girls know stuff guys cannot cope with...     

Ciambella wrote:

Actually, "thuốc" by itself means medicine.   The word that goes before or after thuốc changes the meaning of the term.   For instance:

Thuốc lá:  cigarette and tobacco leaf (either / or / both)
Thuốc lào:  Vietnamese tobacco used in water-filtered pipes (bongs)
Thuốc phiện:  opium
Thuốc Tây:  Western medicine
Thuốc ta (Thuốc bắc):  Eastern medicine
Thuốc nổ:  gunpowder
Thuốc tê:  anesthetic
Thuốc trừ sâu:  pesticide/s
Thầy thuốc:  physician, can be used for healer as well
Uống thuốc:  take medicine
Viên thuốc:  pill/s or tablet/s
Đơn thuốc:  prescription
Chạy thuốc:  urgently seeking a certain medicine

so 'Thuốc ta' and 'Thuốc bắc' both mean 'Eastern Medicine', huh? From what I learned 'bắc' means north. As in 'Hướng bắc' (North) or 'Miền Bắc' (Northern), so how come 'Thuốc bắc' means Eastern Medicine?

Shouldn't it be 'Northern Medicine'?. Is it because 'Eastern medicine' (as westerners call it) is also the same as 'oriental (Chinese) medicine' and China is actually to the North of Vietnam. So, what Westerners' call 'east(ern)' is actually 'north(ern)' for Vietnamese.

By the way, how come it's not called 'Thuốc Miền Bắc'. In English saying 'East Medicine' is incorrect. We add the '-ern' to form Eastern'. Seems different grammar rules apply, huh?

Uống thuốc (take medicine) - Translated word for word it's actually saying 'drink medicine', but the complete phrase means 'take medicine'. wow!, these nuances are really amazing.

Similarly, with 'hút thuốc, word-for-word it means 'suck tobacco', but the whole phrase becomes 'smoke tobacco/cigarette', right?

'Thuốc lào:  Vietnamese tobacco used in water-filtered pipes (bongs)' - I was offered a hit on one of these once when I stopped off at a shop on the way back from lao bao border. I respectfully declined as I was riding a motorbike and didn't know what he was putting in the bong.

From my previous experience with bongs (from younger days), one hit, and time would slow to a standstill, you'd become incredibly hungry ('munchies') and laze around all day playing computer games (nevermind riding a motorbike for miles and miles).

You're asking for a semester of Vietnamese language in one sitting, aren't you?  That's OK, I've done similarly many times before, used to drive my instructor up the wall (4 whole years of thousands of questions on Italian subjunctive, to the point that the rest of the class asked to be transferred elsewhere and I was left as the only student.  My sinister scheme worked!)

Here are the answers:

1- I need to add another term to Eastern medicine (skipped my mind yesterday):  Thuốc bắc, thuốc nam, and thuốc ta.  All 3 terms mean the same thing.

Why using bắc, as in Northern direction?  Good question!  Not many Vietnamese would ask that. 

It's called bắc because Chinese traditional medical treatments and Chinese herbs and plants were used.  China is north of VN, thus the name. 

Thuốc nam, OTOH, is the true Vietnamese medicine, using local herbs, vegetations, and plants.  The method of treatment and recipes in thuốc nam were created to suit the climate of Vietnam and the temperament of Vietnamese people.  The term thuốc nam came from the philosophy of Lê Hữu Trác aka Hải Thượng Lãn Ông (1720 - 1791), the father of Vietnamese medicine.  His philosophy was reflected in the quote "Nam dược trị Nam nhân" (Southern medicine to treat Southern people). 

Thuốc ta is the generic term to call all folk medicine.

2- You cannot apply English grammar to Vietnamese language. 

Bắc means North, northern, and northerly.  "Miền Bắc" means northern region, "hướng bắc" means northern direction, "đất Bắc" means northern land.  "Bắc" is a noun, an adjective, and an adverb, all rolled into one.

Adjectives and adverbs do not change their forms in Vietnamese language, the same way singular and plural, masculine and feminine, verb moods and tenses do not change.  You cannot add -y into an adjective and make it an adverb.  Every word in the language stays the same, at all time.  Do not put s behind "đồng" to indicate plural.  Do not put s behind a last name to indicate the family of.  Instead of "The Nguyens", it's "The family of Mr Nguyen XXX""

If you say Thuốc Miền Bắc, you'll be looked at strangely.  Or maybe you wouldn't, simply because you're a foreigner and Vietnamese people would think you mean thuốc Bắc instead.  You would never hear Vietnamese saying thuốc miền Bắc because it's a made-up term.

3-  "Hút" doesn't simply mean suck.  As a noun, it means a deep hole on the skin such as remnant of a wound;  a trace or shadow of a person / an animal just before he/it completely disappears;  also a magnetic interaction.  As an adjective, it means almost; also means deeper or farther than the eyes can see.  As a verb, it means suck, inhale, absorb, attract.

There may be more definitions and usages, I just can't think of them at the moment.

4-  The effect of a bong hit varies depending on the kind of tobacco leaves being used and the strength.  I've never tried it but I've seen and known thousands of people who weren't affected at all, and they were not regular users.