Brexit and its implications for British, HU and any other citizens

https://www.ft.com/content/a39e4774-c5d … a19d5dd52e

SimCityAT wrote:

https://www.ft.com/content/a39e4774-c5d … a19d5dd52e

I Googled it and of course, Teresa has been savaged by memes.   

No wonder!

SimCityAT wrote:

https://www.ft.com/content/a39e4774-c5d … a19d5dd52e

LOL!!! 

I just love a good satirical cartoon. 

Brexit annoyances of the week:

According to Macron (French President) says they are preparing worst case legislation which enables British people requiring visas to visit France.  He actually says, "we will not stop visas (for British people) in case of no deal" which is not the same as saying "there will be no visas".   

Presumably other countries will be working on that stuff as well.   

For any of us British folk driving anywhere in Europe, especially as we have to cross at least 4 countries from here and if we need visas for all of them individually this is going to be very painful.

According to the French embassy, there are 120000 known French people in the South East of the UK and many more who are not known to be in the country or in other places other than the South East.  Presumably on a reciprocal basis, they will all need visas too. 

On a more positive tit-for-tat note, in the event of no deal,  there will be 27km traffic jams blocking up roads around the channel ports in France.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Brexit annoyances of the week:

I can certainly appreciate the frustration and real world problems this is and will be for those affected by these actions and inactions.

But....

For Americans like myself, it really is just an excuse to buy more popcorn and watch the show......

(the PC smiley)

(the non-PC smiley)

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Brexit annoyances of the week:

I can certainly appreciate the frustration and real world problems this is and will be for those affected by these actions and inactions.

But....

For Americans like myself, it really is just an excuse to buy more popcorn and watch the show......

(the PC smiley)

(the non-PC smiley)

No problem with enjoying the show, we do the same being amused by Trump's antics.  Maybe if it gets dangerous with Mr T we'd be more concerned what with NATO and all that.  I still don't know if he's nuts or a genius.  If anything will blow up, it'll be the South China Sea -Gulf of Tonkin again.

But anyway,  in my thinking (perhaps strangely), I thought that it could be the rise of the anti-immigrant parties in Europe recently might actually benefit the UK on this EU-visa issue.  If one looks at the right wing, they can equally veto EU vengeful attempts to stop "free" (non-visa) movement to the UK.  I am pretty sure the Austrians would love their border back and bizarrely OV also would want to put his name on some looser UK-Hungary visa arrangement or to nobble Schengen in HU.  He got support for his policies from the EPP (European People's Party grouping in the EU parliament) when the vote on the Sargentini report was called.   Others possibly leaning that way include Italy, Czechs and the AfD in Germany.  Maybe flying the visa control flags are just negotiating tactics/posturing from Mr Macaroni.

fluffy2560 wrote:

No problem with enjoying the show, we do the same being amused by Trump's antics.

I have special "American Cheese" flavored popcorn for that show.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

No problem with enjoying the show, we do the same being amused by Trump's antics.

I have special "American Cheese" flavored popcorn for that show.

Not Mexican Chili flavoured*?

You'd be dipping in every 2 minutes.  Latest is that he's leaving the UPU (Universal Postal Union).  Tit for tat stuff over Chinese imports.

*Or cultural reference I'm not familiar with.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Not Mexican Chili flavoured*?

And have to access such delicious delectables from over or under a wall? Or pay a tariff?

We American are now stuck with American cheese on our nachos..... Sad...

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Not Mexican Chili flavoured*?

And have to access such delicious delectables from over or under a wall? Or pay a tariff?

We American are now stuck with American cheese on our nachos..... Sad...

I've had US cheese and it's not great.  It was in a tube if I remember correctly.

If Mr T built the wall out of a decent cheese, then if he chose Emmental, you could get nacho cheese imports through the holes.

Actually now I mention it, does the US have decent home developed cheeses like Pannonia, Camembert or Port Salut?

fluffy2560 wrote:

Actually now I mention it, does the US have decent home developed cheeses like Pannonia, Camembert or Port Salut?

Maybe. In some small enclave. And if so, probably some form of cheddar. And probably from Wisconsin.

Mostly we have "Kraft American Cheese". Power of the market. And large business.

Small, unique cheese producers ... Pht. Who cares. Kraft can buy more seats in Congress.

Sad.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Actually now I mention it, does the US have decent home developed cheeses like Pannonia, Camembert or Port Salut?

Maybe. In some small enclave. And if so, probably some form of cheddar. And probably from Wisconsin.

Mostly we have "Kraft American Cheese". Power of the market. And large business.

Small, unique cheese producers ... Pht. Who cares. Kraft can buy more seats in Congress.

Sad.

Mein Gott, I thought as much. 

There must be 1000s of different types of cheese in Europe, most of it excellent.  Was that Kraft American Cheese in a tube?  Processed white and highly extrudable?   How can one make cheese on toast? Or sprinkle Parmesan on your spaghetti bolognese?  I suppose it comes down to all whites are Chardonnay and Cheese is like wall filler.

Isn't Monterey Jack Cheese  American?
I usually shop for cheese in the US at Trader Joe's Market , think they import most of the cheese there.
Kraft cheese at least isn't, "Government Cheese"!
Many, many years back when my step-dad was literally dying, my mom was given huge boxes of US Gov. Cheese. The gov.'s way of giving a helping hand...
It was something goo like in texture and basically was not good for anything but a grilled cheese or nacho dip.Even then on it's own it was not something one could swallow without being forced to do so.
Think it was the no. 1 ingredient for mac and cheese in the school lunches in public cafes for kids.
Used to be a running joke about gov. cheese in the 1980's.
We Americans can laugh at ourselves, we all laughed at the gov. cheese, either that or cry.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Isn't Monterey Jack Cheese  American?
I usually shop for cheese in the US at Trader Joe's Market , think they import most of the cheese there.
Kraft cheese at least isn't, "Government Cheese"!
Many, many years back when my step-dad was literally dying, my mom was given huge boxes of US Gov. Cheese. The gov.'s way of giving a helping hand...
It was something goo like in texture and basically was not good for anything but a grilled cheese or nacho dip.Even then on it's own it was not something one could swallow without being forced to do so.
Think it was the no. 1 ingredient for mac and cheese in the school lunches in public cafes for kids.
Used to be a running joke about gov. cheese in the 1980's.
We Americans can laugh at ourselves, we all laughed at the gov. cheese, either that or cry.

Govt cheese.  Whatever next?  Actually cheese deserts exist in Asia too.  This is way off topic. I'm taking it to AAE (Absolutely Anything Else).....click here....

*update*

Re: Macron: French Govt have said he misspoke, he meant to say "we will not START visas....". 

D'oh!

Could have been war!

fluffy2560 wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Isn't Monterey Jack Cheese  American?
I usually shop for cheese in the US at Trader Joe's Market , think they import most of the cheese there.
Kraft cheese at least isn't, "Government Cheese"!
Many, many years back when my step-dad was literally dying, my mom was given huge boxes of US Gov. Cheese. The gov.'s way of giving a helping hand...
It was something goo like in texture and basically was not good for anything but a grilled cheese or nacho dip.Even then on it's own it was not something one could swallow without being forced to do so.
Think it was the no. 1 ingredient for mac and cheese in the school lunches in public cafes for kids.
Used to be a running joke about gov. cheese in the 1980's.
We Americans can laugh at ourselves, we all laughed at the gov. cheese, either that or cry.

Govt cheese.  Whatever next?  Actually cheese deserts exist in Asia too.  This is way off topic. I'm taking it to AAE (Absolutely Anything Else).....click here....

Government cheese; better known as "Cheese, processed" by those of us who have served.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Isn't Monterey Jack Cheese  American?.

Yes, you are right.

That is one cheese originated in the USA. Example of the hive mind getting an answer that some individuals alone can not produce. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monterey_Jack

Incredibly off topic......BUT....interestingly enough, to follow this cheese thread (cheese string? straw?), it looks like the USA produces 1.2M tonnes of Cheddar like material per year and the UK, about 250,000 tonnes of the genuine product (Wikipedia says anyway).   

Cheddar is PDO (Protected Designation of Origin), so USA claims of Cheddar should perhaps be Cheddar Style.

Question in my mind is if Monterey Jack is worth a try if I see some?

I don't fancy the cheese flavoured toothpastey stuff I had before.
 
As I speak, Mrs Fluffy is making fried cheese (Trappista) in the kitchen.

Not a huge fan of Monterey Jack but it is perfect on Chilli Releno's , A roasted green chilli pepper with stuffed Jack cheese inside which is dipped in batter and friend, a Mexican dish which is perfect with Jack, cheddar just doesn't cut it for that dish.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Not a huge fan of Monterey Jack but it is perfect on Chilli Releno's , A roasted green chilli pepper with stuffed Jack cheese inside which is dipped in batter and fried, a Mexican dish which is perfect with Jack, cheddar just doesn't cut it for that dish.

Hmmm....doesn't sound very healthy - deep fried chili pepper.  Maybe a baked version?

fluffy2560 wrote:

Hmmm....doesn't sound very healthy - deep fried chili pepper.

Traditional Mexican food is not really a health food by modern standards. Traditional flour tortillas are made with lard, for example. You can find modern alternative ways of doing the cooking.... but it is not traditional.

That being said.... I love Mexican cuisine. I guess it feeds my soul.

Like a cheese laden pizza (also not really healthy).

But.... let's not get started on that. Else we will need to start to discuss Lángos. Since this is the Hungarian forum. And how I can almost feel my heart values solidifying in real time from the grease and fat if I eat one....

klsallee wrote:

....

But.... let's not get started on that. Else we will need to start to discuss Lángos. Since this is the Hungarian forum. And how I can almost feel my heart values solidifying in real time from the grease and fat if I eat one....

You think that's bad, I've only recently found out we live next door to a nuclear reactor.  I can almost see it from my house.  It's about 2km away as the crow flies.   No, I didn't know it was there when we bought this place.  I haven't seen any mutants recently. Clearly awaiting their chance.

Langos is just a big flat donut with savoury toppings.   We British have something called Yorkshire Pudding  - jokingly called "JÓSKA" Pudding here.   This is the same mix as used to make pancakes except Yorkshire Puds are cooked in the oven rather than on a griddle. The oven one is savoury and eaten with say, roast beef and other one is generally taken with say jam or marmalade.  Same thing, different cooking method, just like Langos and donuts.

Presumably we British will not be able to eat Langos post-Brexit (keeping on topic - sort of).

I found this at the British Embassy web site:

A letter to UK nationals living in Hungary

Sets out some interim policies and transition arrangements.

Latest on Hungary and no deal Brexit:

Passport rules for travel to Europe after Brexit

fluffy2560 wrote:

Latest on Hungary and no deal Brexit:

Passport rules for travel to Europe after Brexit

So it so far appears that after Brexit those from the Uk will be treated just like the rest of us non
EU citizens. Not so badly really.
I suppose though those residing in Hungary longer then 90 days will need a visa to stay longer then 90 days.Also not the end of the world, maybe the end of a few few days spent at immigration services.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Latest on Hungary and no deal Brexit:

Passport rules for travel to Europe after Brexit

So it so far appears that after Brexit those from the Uk will be treated just like the rest of us non
EU citizens. Not so badly really.
I suppose though those residing in Hungary longer then 90 days will need a visa to stay longer then 90 days.Also not the end of the world, maybe the end of a few few days spent at immigration services.

Yes, I think so.   We'll be the same as non-EU persons.

Latest is that it looks like we could be moving to a no-deal Brexit as the proposed agreement could be rejected by parliament.  The PM might even be replaced and there's even a chance of a general election.  In which case Brexit might be postponed.

fluffy2560 wrote:

In which case Brexit might be postponed.

What is the legal path to postpone Brexit? That is, how is the time line in Article 50 changed?

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

In which case Brexit might be postponed.

What is the legal path to postpone Brexit? That is, how is the time line in Article 50 changed?

Matter of negotiations.  As with all laws they aren't cast in stone. All parties only have to agree to it and they might as well because a half-baked Brexit isn't going to do anyone any good.

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

In which case Brexit might be postponed.

What is the legal path to postpone Brexit? That is, how is the time line in Article 50 changed?

Matter of negotiations.

I did note you were more ambiguous by saying "might", but I have seen other comments using more definite assumptions with words like "will require". Yet, any one EU country can nix any such extension attempt.

Personally, I think the current agreement is ineffective, and maybe detrimental to the EU. Businesses what clarity and a clear way forward. Politicians are often unable to provide that clarity. I would rather see a clean break next year if the UK can not get their act together, rather than years of "negotiations" as to so many issues, including the Ireland question. That is, I disagree. IMHO, a clean break would be best for the EU. I really don't care if the UK suffers. The UK politicians called the referendum for political reasons. And it backfired. Tough. Oh well. The bed one makes needs to be slept in by the ones that made the bed.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

What is the legal path to postpone Brexit? That is, how is the time line in Article 50 changed?

Matter of negotiations.

I did note you were more ambiguous by saying "might", but I have seen other comments using more definite assumptions with words like "will require". Yet, any one EU country can nix any such extension attempt.

Personally, I think the current agreement is ineffective, and maybe detrimental to the EU. Businesses what clarity and a clear way forward. Politicians are often unable to provide that clarity. I would rather see a clean break next year if the UK can not get their act together, rather than years of "negotiations" as to so many issues, including the Ireland question. That is, I disagree. IMHO, a clean break would be best for the EU. I really don't care if the UK suffers. The UK politicians called the referendum for political reasons. And it backfired. Tough. Oh well. The bed one makes needs to be slept in by the ones that made the bed.

Looking back, sure it was a screw up to call the referendum but it's done and that's that - the people have spoken.   What I meant with "might" is a figure of speech meaning they really have no choice but to lean into to the agreement as - on balance - it's supposedly better than nothing.  I cannot tell - didn't read it yet as I didn't have time.

But it's a fast moving situation so as I type, your post doesn't reflect the current news or situation.   I'm not defending the Brexit agreement but the EU has been standing up today and saying it's all that the UK would get and the UK PM is saying that this is a good deal.  So they are all agreeing.  That doesn't matter much if the UK Parliament chucks it out.   Literally Juncker just said if it's rejected in Parliament there's no Plan B (heard it on the radio report just now).

I think it's not really fair to blame Britain for not getting it's act together.  One could say similar things about the EU's ignorant and inflammatory statements from the past.  Trying to divide the country by inserting a border through the UK is just asking for a political punch up or more.   People are hardening their stance to the EU because of their behaviour.

But Ireland is one thing, but there's another one looming and that's Gibraltar where Spain has been trying it on for years.  Spain is hypocritical as it hardly says much about Ceuta or Melilla.   

Ireland is very much of a different quality to those disputes - during the Irish financial crisis, UK propped up the economy to the tune of about $4B if I remember correctly.  There's a lot more to UK and Ireland's  depth of relationship over and above that of the EU.

An interesting development is that Sinn Fein (Irish Nationalists, political wing of the IRA) could hold the balance of power in a vote but Sinn Fein have traditionally never taken their places in the UK Parliament.  So this is a major vote in their interest so let's see how they solve that cognitive dissonance to get what they want. Be weird if it fell on the numbers similar to the numbers of seats Sinn Fein hold and they didn't turn up to vote. Like cutting off their noses.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I think it's not really fair to blame Britain for not getting it's act together.

I think it is completely fair.

Democracy only works well with an educated, informed and involved electorate. The UK clearly does not have that.

Nor does Hungary.

Nor does the USA.

Nor do most EU countries.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

So, simply because no one has what it takes to have a decent Democracy today, does not mean it is not fair to point blame. So, yes, blame can be pointed out and spread around quite a bit.

The world, IMHO, is a round robin of public and political stupidity that deserves nothing but derision and blame for the chaos that is now and what will be (I don't think we have seen the worst of it yet -- if history is a guide).

But.... I do find fault in those that "pop the balloon" first, by initiating the most stupid things for the most stupid political reasons when there was.... maybe.... still a chance to salvage basic sanity, decency and humanity.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I think it's not really fair to blame Britain for not getting it's act together.

I think it is completely fair.

Democracy only works well with an educated, informed and involved electorate. The UK clearly does not have that.

.....

So, simply because no one has what it takes to have a decent Democracy today, does not mean it is not fair to point blame. So, yes, blame can be pointed out and spread around quite a bit.

The world, IMHO, is a round robin of public and political stupidity that deserves nothing but derision and blame for the chaos that is now and what will be (I don't think we have seen the worst of it yet -- if history is a guide).

But.... I do find fault in those that "pop the balloon" first, by initiating the most stupid things for the most stupid political reasons when there was.... maybe.... still a chance to salvage basic sanity, decency and humanity.

UK is - like everywhere else - a muddle of facts, opinion and misinformation.  There's definitely a lot of fake news around sucked up by the Alt-Right. But corners of the voice of reason are coming back to fight.

For example, the extraordinary latest manipulation involving Facebook (and therefore linked Brexit) involved theSarjeant at Arms for the UK Parliament effectively arresting an executive of a firm in a legal dispute with Facebook in order to obtain documents sealed by a California court.  No-one has ever heard of such a thing even though it's within the UK Parliament's powers.  That means evidence of Facebook's manipulations will become public and as it's under parliamentary privilege, it's perfectly legal in the UK. I wonder what the judge in California will make of it.   

Anyway, it takes two to argue and that means plenty of finger pointing everywhere.  But it's too simplistic from the sidelines to point at the UK and say, they are wrong - the people voted on the matter and it's clearly democracy in action.  But the outcome is a bad job and both sides need to be blamed. It needs balance.

Latest:

EUR 7 for UK visitors to visit EU/Schengen

Reported on the BBC  also here: EU ETAIS required for UK citizens to visit EU post-2020

fluffy2560 wrote:

Latest:

EUR 7 for UK visitors to visit EU/Schengen

Reported on the BBC  also here: EU ETAIS required for UK citizens to visit EU post-2020

Every 3 years?

SimCityAT wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Latest:

EUR 7 for UK visitors to visit EU/Schengen

Reported on the BBC  also here: EU ETAIS required for UK citizens to visit EU post-2020

Every 3 years?

Yes, that's what it says. 

Personally I don't think they should even suggest any controls that regardless of the price. They've made it similar to other countries (even if the EU is not a country) - ETA (Canada) is 3 years and ESTA (US) is 5 years.

What's got my back up is a question that may be asked depending on what kind of bloody mindedness occurs (see specifically the FAQs on the EU web site), noting British citizens will have no special entitlements post-Brexit (i.e. they are from "other countries"):

For family members of EU citizens from other countries, you must submit proof of relationship, residence card, and other background information

Here's my beef: our relatives have to justify their visit to see family members. 

Teresa could have done better than that.  It could work the other way too, UK introduces a similar system for EU citizens to visit the UK, presumably under reciprocal conditions. Mrs Fluffy is going to be annoyed.  Only the Fluffyettes come out on top (as dual nationals).

Have you got a residence card?

SimCityAT wrote:

Have you got a residence card?

Nah, that's not the point.  It's not about the money or residence cards.

It's an erosion of our family rights - as a foreigner my relatives have to do more work and jump through more hoops however small to visit their family members.   

And will probably be the same the other way - Mrs Fluffy cannot visit our family in the UK. She sometimes goes with the kids there and without me.

I don't like our rights to a family life being eroded. 

I expect Mrs SimCityAT will have to jump through some hoops to go to the UK and your relatives to get to AT.

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's an erosion of our family rights - as a foreigner my relatives have to do more work and jump through more hoops however small to visit their family members. .

While I appreciate fighting small battles, if one is a foreigner, I doubt one can really claim such a triviality as a "family right" in another country where they are a foreigner.

And since Brits voted for Briexit.... well you are stuck with the tyranny of the majority.

After all, in a global context, plenty of international couples have to pay visa fees for the "foreign" spouse. It is pretty "normal" internationally. So not sure this is really one of those small battles worth fighting. Tempest in a teacup.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's an erosion of our family rights - as a foreigner my relatives have to do more work and jump through more hoops however small to visit their family members. .

While I appreciate fighting small battles, if one is a foreigner, I doubt one can really claim such a triviality as a "family right" in another country where they are a foreigner.

And since Brits voted for Brexit.... well you are stuck with the tyranny of the majority.

After all, in a global context, plenty of international couples have to pay visa fees for the "foreign" spouse. It is pretty "normal" internationally. So not sure this is really one of those small battles worth fighting. Tempest in a teacup.

While I can see that point, it's not really the tyranny of the majority, that particular issue is answered as  being part of the disenfranchised.

Those outside of the country more than 15 years were not even allowed to vote and there are 3 million of us living in other EU countries.  We have been ignored and I don't think anyone likes the result.

What Teresa should have  done is allowed free movement, at least for temporary visitors.  I don't think the EFTA countries are being subject to this rule.  I am certain that EU visitors to the UK will not have to prove their credentials other than by passport when passing a UK border. 

Anyway latest is that there may be another referendum.  No idea of the potential outcomes on that one.

Just to clear up that issue over rights. It's not so trivial. It's actually quite complex. UK is currently a member of the ECHR and one of those rights is Right to a family life interpreted in several ways.  It's been proved time and again through the courts that countries in the EU have to allow family members to join their spouses and/or others to join them.  But what I read in the ETIAS is that one has to prove one's right.  So what happens to people post-Brexit who always had the right to visit their family, or in previously rulings were entitled to be united.  Not having to seek approval to prove yourself to see you family is something that should surely survive or will all those rights be rescinded?   It's just not clear.