Conversion of Israeli license -- citizen but not a resident

You can normally only get a driving license for a country where you actually declare and have legal residency. And you can only have one EU driving license in one country. And to exchange a non-EU driving license with an EU one, it is country specific; the two countries have to have some license exchange agreement. For more information what office to contact on this issue, see this:

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/v … dex_en.htm

Thanks. It's written that

"You must produce the same documents as applicants from EEA States, and if you do not have a residence card you must also produce proof of your right of residence issued by the immigration authority (residence permit)."

The point is that I do have the right of residence: I have a lakcimet igazoló hatósági igazolvány and I'm living in Europe for more than 180 days (so I'm a tax payer in Europe).... Do you know if it's sufficient?

There are two questions.

One, whether you meet a residency test for a Hungarian license. Your first and second posts are a bit confusing on your actual residence at present.

Second, if entitled to apply for a Hungarian license whether you can simply exchange your Israeli license or whether you have to go through all the rigamarole faced by a new driver.

Let me explain:

0. My parents are Hungarian so I have an Hungarian passport. In my lakcimet igazoló hatósági igazolvány it's written that my Lakóhely is «Külföldi cim».
1. I was born in Israel and lived in Israel until last January.
2. Since January I'm living and working in France.
3. I want to convert my license to European one, which is possible only if I go to Budapest and apply there.

In Israel I'm still a new driver so I guess also in Hungary....
Am I eligible for this conversion?

Tibos1992 wrote:

......
1. I was born in Israel and lived in Israel until last January.
2. Since January I'm living and working in France.
....

Why don't you get a French license?

Then, if you want, you can swap it later for  a Hungarian one as you want.

Just take the French test.  The French won't know if you have an Israeli license unless you tell them.

Can't convert my license to French. France doesn't like Israeli licenses for some reason (which probably have to do nothing with Israel's traffic regulation).
Taking the French classes is losing 750€ and time-consuming process... I prefer to look for alternatives before I begin it.

Tibos1992 wrote:

Can't convert my license to French. France doesn't like Israeli licenses for some reason (which probably have to do nothing with Israel's traffic regulation).
Taking the French classes is losing 750€ and time-consuming process... I prefer to look for alternatives before I begin it.

Some things:

1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic - Israel  acceded to the treaty in 1971 and Hungary acceded in 1976.  Therefore according to the treaty, they are both signatories and therefore mutually recognise each others licenses. 

France has also acceded to the treaty so they shouldn't have a choice about your license.  Maybe someone in France like the Israeli Embassy can  tell you what's going on.

Instructions for Hungary are apparently found here.

I expect you'll need a proper HU address.  Maybe a relative can provide a suitable address for you.

They refuse to convert licenses from Israel. See the list of the countries: http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/- … 085da1.pdf

A group of Israelis living here tried to contact the embassy and the ministry and we got the answer: "We move to a global EU license in few years. When it happens ask the EU community to help you. Meanwhile we can't convert your licenses".

I have no living relatives in Hungary nowadays so it's kind of problem...

Tibos1992 wrote:

They refuse to convert licenses from Israel. See the list of the countries: http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/- … 085da1.pdf

A group of Israelis living here tried to contact the embassy and the ministry and we got the answer: "We move to a global EU license in few years. When it happens ask the EU community to help you. Meanwhile we can't convert your licenses".

I have no living relatives in Hungary nowadays so it's kind of problem...

As far as I can see, that's a list of countries that ARE permitted for license exchange.  Israel isn't mentioned unless my French is that bad.  That list seems a bit odd especially as the 1968 Convention is still valid (as far as I am aware). 

The global EU license - I don't recognise what that is.  As you said, it sounds like their answer is political.

I think the authorities won't offer you a HU license unless you live here (or have an address you can use).  That's the same everywhere.  You can probably get away with it but usually there's a fine if you don't keep your details up to date on licenses.

Maybe you can just get an international license for the 1968 convention and just use that (as a supplement to your license).

If his residence is in France, France is not obligated to recognise his Israeli license under the treaty. See Art 41. Ditto the international driving permit.

That is, in simple language the treaty provides for recognition of a foreign driver's license only for visitors.

zif wrote:

If his residence is in France, France is not obligated to recognise his Israeli license under the treaty. See Art 41. Ditto the international driving permit.

That is, in simple language the treaty provides for recognition of a foreign driver's license only for visitors.

Can you provide a specific link to where you read that? 

I didn't see any derogations in the 1968 treaty notes relating to France (in the UN Treaty link I provided, there's a link for per country qualifications to the treaty).

I got the impression that OP was just visiting for months and home was in Israel.  At some point, the visitor's use of a DL will expire anyway and a French test will need to be passed.

I am interested in this subject because of a no deal Brexit.

My contract is until 2021 with a possible extension to 2024. Israel is not my "permanent" home any longer.

Can't I just rent a mailbox in Budapest or something?

Tibos1992 wrote:

My contract is until 2021 with a possible extension to 2024. Israel is not my "permanent" home any longer.

Can't I just rent a mailbox in Budapest or something?

Yes, I think you probably could and it could work out if you view the law as "flexible".

USA has Mailboxes Etc but here, no idea who does that.

I think you speak the language so you'd probably have more luck searching than us foreigners.

Tibos1992 wrote:

Can't I just rent a mailbox in Budapest or something?

To get a driving license in any EU country, you must actually claim actual residence in that country -- have an address, pay all your world wide income taxes, contribute to all social taxes (health, social security, etc.).

A mail box alone is not sufficient alone to get a driving license. Having a Hungarian address card does not in itself confirm or prove actual residency (pay taxes here, etc). Only that you have a Hungarian address. Those are not necessarily the same thing.

That is true for every EU country. France and Hungary. I doubt you can get a license in Hungary legally.

You have the text of the treaty. Read Article 41: "The  provisions of this Article shall not  require Contracting Parties: (a) To  recognize the validity of  domestic permits  issued  in  the  territory  of  another Contracting  Party  to persons who had  their normal  residence  in  their  territories  at  the time of such issue or  whose  normal  residence has  been  transferred  to  their  territories since such issue."

Of course the treaty only sets the outer boundary, and a country is free to set a more liberal rule.

klsallee wrote:

Tibos1992 wrote:

Can't I just rent a mailbox in Budapest or something?

To get a driving license in any EU country, you must actually claim actual residence in that country -- have an address, pay all your world wide income taxes, contribute to all social taxes (health, social security, etc.).

A mail box alone is not sufficient alone to get a driving license. Having a Hungarian address card does not in itself confirm or prove actual residency (pay taxes here, etc). Only that you have a Hungarian address. Those are not necessarily the same thing.

That is true for every EU country. France and Hungary. I doubt you can get a license in Hungary legally.

That's not right.

In my own country (UK), the only thing you need to do is pass the tests, have an EU/EEA passport and a suitable address.   There's no requirement to pay any taxes or anything like that.  Never had been.  I passed my driving test there at 17 and I didn't pay any taxes.

I don't see even here in HU, what taxes have to do with driving licenses.   One could be for example, a home based spouse or a student and not pay taxes and still have a valid driving license.

I think the OP would get away with not having a proper HU address but it would be just that, getting away with it.   I wouldn't want to condone anyone breaking the law.

I pay taxes and social security here in France. I don't care if I pay in HUF or EUR. I just know that I pay and that as a citizen I should have some rights, independent of choices I didn't take.  That's why this story is so weird.

fluffy2560 wrote:

That's not right.

According to this, it is:

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/v … dex_en.htm

And if you "usually or regularly live" in a country, that means you are almost always required to pay taxes there, etc.

Either way, regardless of your or my interpretation, a mail box address alone clearly does not qualify in Hungary.

A few points.

EU treaties are not the law anywhere; it is up to the individual nation-state to turn those treaties into national legislation, it is from this that Hungarian laws on driving licences may be derived (assuming that Hungary has fully adopted this particular treaty).  How nation-states interpret EU treaties etc has proven to be a bit of a nightmare, with some interpreting the words and requirements of the treaties in different ways.  Some nations have opted out of some treaties completely.

With regards to driving licences specifically I know 2 different countries well that give examples of how this has worked:

United Kingdom - no requirement to register an address anywhere, the only requirement to obtain a licence is either pass the UK driving test, fill in the form and submit the form and photo to the DVLA, or have an acceptable full driving licence from another country to exchange for the UK version.  The address on the licence should be the one where you live, but as there is no national registry of who lives where, you can, in fact, use any address - my UK licenses were registered to my parents address in London for 30 years, I never lived there.

Holland - you must register at an address, for the driving licence, it's the same requirements as to UK, except you can only obtain a driving licence at the address where you are registered.

Somewhere between those 2 examples will lie how Hungary has interpreted the EU requirements; I know nothing about Hungarian Road Traffic law.

Oh - and you are assessed for taxes in the country where you live, you may also be assessed separately in the country where you work (if different) - but that's another matter.

Hope this helps.

Cynic
Expat Team

Tibos1992 wrote:

I pay taxes and social security here in France. I don't care if I pay in HUF or EUR. I just know that I pay and that as a citizen I should have some rights, independent of choices I didn't take.  That's why this story is so weird.

Because, just being a citizen of Hungary has nothing to do with it. Even as an American, I can not "just" have a USA driving license. I have to actually live in a one of the states to get that state's license. Many countries work the same. You have to live there.  And by living there, even non-citizens can get a license by whatever local rules are available. Those are the laws in most countries. And laws don't have to make sense to be laws.

For example, as an American citizen living in Europe I had my American driving license swapped to a Swiss driving license automatically because the USA and Switzerland have an agreement to do this and I actually lived in Switzerland for many years. But the USA and Hungary do not have a license swap agreement. Even living here full time, Americans have to pass a local driving test to get a license here, and can only drive on their USA license for 12 months till then.

Cynic wrote:

United Kingdom - no requirement to register an address anywhere ... but as there is no national registry of who lives where

I think, but my be wrong, that the UK is unique in not having a national registry; and if so may be the "exception to the rule" rather than much else and may be of little value, legally speaking, how it works (or is suppose to work) in the rest of the EU.

When I dealt with getting a driving license in Hungary, they certainly asked all the details about me as I described.

Cynic wrote:

I know nothing about Hungarian Road Traffic law.

I don't think anyone here needs to. My first post (in fact the first post at this thread) gave a link to the actual Hungarian office that should be contacted to settle this issue.

Us, here, discussing it, is fun, but in the end that office is the only authority on this issue and the final word.

klsallee wrote:

Cynic wrote:

United Kingdom - no requirement to register an address anywhere ... but as there is no national registry of who lives where

I think, but my be wrong, that the UK is unique in not having a national registry; and if so may be the "exception to the rule" rather than much else and may be of little value, legally speaking, how it works (or is suppose to work) in the rest of the EU.

When I dealt with getting a driving license in Hungary, they certainly asked all the details about me as I described.

I used to think that as well, but when I checked the EU website, it's not compulsory in the following EU countries:

Czech Republic - voluntary system.
Denmark - not required for citizens of other Nordic countries (not sure what that means tbh).
France (that surprised me and I'm still not convinced).
Germany - EU citizens do not need to apply for a residence certificate (Freizügigkeitsbescheinigung). You must nevertheless register at the competent residents' registration office when moving into accommodation in Germany (which kind of sounds like registering to me)
Sweden

Many countries seem to have different requirements for EU citizens.

Whatever, it's largely irrelevant if the country has not signed up to the treaty.

klsallee wrote:

Cynic wrote:

I know nothing about Hungarian Road Traffic law.

I don't think anyone here needs to. My first post (in fact the first post at this thread) gave a link to the actual Hungarian office that should be contacted to settle this issue.

Us, here, discussing it, is fun, but in the end that office is the only authority on this issue and the final word.

Absolutely - 100% correct.

Cynic wrote:

I used to think that as well, but when I checked the EU website, it's not compulsory in the following EU countries:

Nice. I learned something new. Thanks for this.

klsallee wrote:

Cynic wrote:

United Kingdom - no requirement to register an address anywhere ... but as there is no national registry of who lives where

I think, but my be wrong, that the UK is unique in not having a national registry; and if so may be the "exception to the rule" rather than much else and may be of little value, legally speaking, how it works (or is suppose to work) in the rest of the EU.....

Not entirely unique on national registries in the form of an database to issue ID documents - most Scandinavian countries do not have them either.

Cynic wrote:

.....EU treaties are not the law anywhere; it is up to the individual nation-state to turn those treaties into national legislation,....

Treaties no, directives yes.

Does the Hungarian license have your home address on it? I know the UK has your address on it but Austrian licenses don't.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Cynic wrote:

.....EU treaties are not the law anywhere; it is up to the individual nation-state to turn those treaties into national legislation,....

Treaties no, directives yes.

Having just checked, I think I respectfully disagree.

EU treaties and EU regulations are directly applicable, i.e. national Governments are required to implement them immediately - that said, Governments don't have to immediately sign up to the Treaty itself and they have the right to opt-out, there are currently 4 states with 10 opt-outs in total, this is normally achieved in the UK by the Government having enabling legislation in place for when these things come into force.

It is possible for only 9 member states to create something new on their own that nobody else has to sign up to.

EU directives by themselves are not directly applicable and have to be subsequently enabled by national governments.