The taxman cometh chez Trew

SimonTrew wrote:

Good morning everyone,

After renting for a few years, at the back of last year we bought a house in Hungary.

We already own one house (together with my wife's sister, who lives there and has a minority share) but that has been passed through the family (we bought out the other family members'shares as with rather complex family relationships there ended up being like 1/36 share to Cousin Dave, 1/18 share to Aunty Wilma etc which obviously they would rather have a little windfall than a useless share like that, that just gives them  large potential responsibilities for very little potential gain)

.....

This morning two people from NAV (Nemzeti Ado Vultures) came to assess the property. The missus, who is Not Here At The Moment(TM), is now worrying they will assess the value of the property as more than what we paid for it.

I have several arguments against that, from the fact that things cost what they cost (something is worth what someone will pay for it, in a free exchange) to the fact that it is worth more now both because we have made some major improvements (mainly new kitchen and kitchenette/utility, which had to be completely stripped out and redone) and probably a kinda more-attractive-to-buyers argment for them not having to do the legwork to clear off all the liens and so on.................Does anyone else have experience of NAV assessing/valuing their property, for good or bad? I'd be interested to hear how you got on.

I haven't had this experience here yet but I had it next door in Austria.  Might help.

There, and I expect it's similar here, is there are two values for the house - the one for the recurrent property taxes and the other for the market price stamp duty. 

So obviously, the property tax price is lower than the market as it'll be based on land area. 

I don't think they will be checking on the land tax as that's local government.  I expect they will be checking on is the transfer tax/stamp duty as that's the percentage of the value.

As far as I remember, they will have to exclude the fittings - your kitchen, utility cupboards etc are fittings and not part of the structure of the building.  It's common in other countries to take the kitchen with you when you sell, so that's like the light fittings or your furniture.  Anything else you've done like replacing the loo or painting is just basic maintenance.  Obviously if you've replaced the windows or changed the roof, then that's more like the fabric of the place and part of the structure.

I should also point out that - if I remember correctly (definitely true for cars)  - transfers between husband and wife are not taxed, so if your missus gave you a share for a consideration of 0 Ft, then there should not be any tax on that between you. Marginal if that means anything in this context. 

There's a "scam" in Austria which might exist here -  use the property tax valuation for the sale price and sell all the other items like the plumbing as furniture.  Tax offices are wise to it.

BTW, the lawyer has access to the historic land value database and can look at recent similar sales in the area to determine fair value.

Very annoyingly, unlike the UK, this is not easily available public information (check out Rightmove) but some information can be found in the records as to values or outstanding amounts (e.g. mortgages).   

As an aside, we managed to get the ownership details of my ancient stick-in-the-mud neighbour's house (as we have a boundary dispute).   We also got the ownership details of other houses we considered buying - we discovered one was under the foreclosure moratorium by the mortgage lender.  The apparent owner wanted to be paid in cash - you can imagine why.  I expect he was going to leg it with the cash and not pay back the mortgage provider.  Moreover, the new owner would be liable for the debt. Nasty.

The point is that the lawyers and the authorities can see into the records in detail - more than an individual.

SimonTrew wrote:

I have several arguments against that, from the fact that things cost what they cost (something is worth what someone will pay for it, in a free exchange)

Actually, it depends. As a facetious example, one can not pay 1 HUF for a property and call that the tax basis. Even if you agree to pay off liens and other debts on the property that are extensive. What you agree with the other party may be completely irrelevant to the tax man. The property has a market value, based on an independent appraiser's assessment, that may be more than what you paid (no matter what you paid or what you think is fair market value). And if that is true, the tax authority may increase your tax based on that assessment.

I have purchased four properties. I have never had NAV come by. If they did, then either they may suspect something is "off", or this is a recent process that is SOP now, but was not when I purchased..

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

Good morning everyone,

After renting for a few years, at the back of last year we bought a house in Hungary.

We already own one house (together with my wife's sister, who lives there and has a minority share) but that has been passed through the family (we bought out the other family members'shares as with rather complex family relationships there ended up being like 1/36 share to Cousin Dave, 1/18 share to Aunty Wilma etc which obviously they would rather have a little windfall than a useless share like that, that just gives them  large potential responsibilities for very little potential gain)

.....

This morning two people from NAV (Nemzeti Ado Vultures) came to assess the property. The missus, who is Not Here At The Moment(TM), is now worrying they will assess the value of the property as more than what we paid for it.

I have several arguments against that, from the fact that things cost what they cost (something is worth what someone will pay for it, in a free exchange) to the fact that it is worth more now both because we have made some major improvements (mainly new kitchen and kitchenette/utility, which had to be completely stripped out and redone) and probably a kinda more-attractive-to-buyers argment for them not having to do the legwork to clear off all the liens and so on.................Does anyone else have experience of NAV assessing/valuing their property, for good or bad? I'd be interested to hear how you got on.

I haven't had this experience here yet but I had it next door in Austria.  Might help.

Never had anyone come round ours when I bought my house, I did buy it mortgage free, maybe that had something to do with it?

fluffy2560 wrote:

...if your missus gave you a share for a consideration of 0 Ft...

That's not technically possible - 0 Ft is not a consideration. 1 Ft would be. A consideration has to be something of value and patently 0 Ft has, by definition, no value.

More likely as you say they''re checking that people are not building extensions etc. on the property and not letting them know. Nothing of the kind has happened here (as far as I am aware), i.e. everything is on the deeds and plans etc. It's probably just a routine check as the stamp duty, which we've set aside ready, is due soon.

Yes, here it is common to take what would be considered "fixtures and fittings" in the UK, such as the kitchen etc, with you. THey did offer us the kitchen and bathroom furniture for "a consideration" but the stuff was so old and crappy we politely declined. I was not expecting them to take light switches, sockets etc which I would definitely consider kinda fixtures rather than fittings. But never mind it is not tricky to fit those (and here and there anyway I cover the opening with a surface-mount British socket for choice rather than fiddling with converters or changing plugs on seldom-used devices such as the hoover/vacuum cleaner). 

Something not particularly unheard of (I had it in England to) is this annoying habit of people gluing mirrors onto tiles in bathrooms. I don't know why they do it but of course when you try to get the mirror off, as well as the danger of flying glass etc (easily dealt with by putting stickyback plastic over the mirror when smacking it) it tends to take whole tiles off if the glue is stronger than the tile cement. Have people never heard of mirror screws? Certainly in Hungary they seem not to have. You drill a hole with a glass-cutting bit at each corner and screw the mirror to the wall, the screws have a little thread in the head into which screws a decorative domed cover. They are common-or-garden in the UK and I have some somewhere, it is one of those things on the list when the missus works in the UK to get some from the DIY store or Wilkinson's, the new old Woolworth's (before Woolworth's got all crap and went bust)

This is the problem with things like Gorilla Glue that sticks anything to anything. All very well until you want to take it OFF... apparently strong glue is better to many people than proper fasteners like screws etc, just as we all know that insulation tape is far better than an IP44 junction box or a heat-shrinked soldered joint. DIY is great but people should kinda learn the basics. Once again I have managed quickly to veer off a topic that I myself started, oh dear.

SimCityAT wrote:

Never had anyone come round ours when I bought my house, I did buy it mortgage free, maybe that had something to do with it?

Possibly, but I would think that would make you more likely to get a spot-check, because to get the mortgage you have to show the lender that the property is worth what you say it is worth (although I don't suppose they mind if it is worth more), and they get a surveyor out to value it, and so on, before offering you the mortgage -- whereas mortgage-free you have more opportunity to under-declare its value (not saying you did, of course).

I'm sure it's just a routine pseudo-random assessment.

SimonTrew wrote:

.....

Yes, here it is common to take what would be considered "fixtures and fittings" in the UK, such as the kitchen etc, with you. THey did offer us the kitchen and bathroom furniture for "a consideration" but the stuff was so old and crappy we politely declined. (Still don't have a sink in the bathroom but can't do everything at once, should just get one of those cheap freestanding cabinets with sink to make do with, before redoing the bathroom properly. It's a bit of an annoyance but one gets used to using the 'dirty' bathwater to wet one's razor, spit the toothpaste in, etc)

Something not particularly unheard of (I had it in England to) is this annoying habit of people gluing mirrors onto tiles in bathrooms. I don't know why they do it but of course when you try to get the mirror off, as well as the danger of flying glass etc (easily dealt with by putting stickyback plastic over the mirror when smacking it) it tends to take whole tiles off if the glue is stronger than the tile cement. Have people never heard of mirror screws? ....

This is the problem with things like Gorilla Glue that sticks anything to anything. All very well until you want to take it OFF... apparently strong glue is better to many people than proper fasteners like screws etc, just as we all know that insulation tape is far better than an IP44 junction box or a heat-shrinked soldered joint. DIY is great but people should kinda learn the basics. Once again I have managed quickly to veer off a topic that I myself started, oh dear.

You can buy a temporary sink at say, Bauhaus or wherever, plumb in that temporarily.  We did that in our kitchen. I think we paid about 7K HUF for the cheapest sink with drainer there and I bodged an old kitchen cupboard and work surface out of some scrap.  Now we've almost finished the kitchen we've chucked it all outside.  It's quite bashed up so it'll go in the skip I expect.

With the mirror screws I wouldn't bother.  If you pick the right mirror, it'll come with some brackets you fix to the wall and then can "hang" it on like a painting.  Works a lot easier than the UK fixing method and no outside screws or glass drills.  However, one needs to watch out for fiddly mirrors with "fixed" aluminum brackets on the back - these are painful to get square when the walls are made of cheese and hard to accurately drill into.   

For the junction boxes, I've started using lever and push fit "Wago" style connectors.  I noticed electricians using them in Austria at my house there and ever since then, I use them for cables here - the ones I have work up to 4mm2 - like 32A.  The ones with the levers are brilliant. I've seen small boxes of them in Aldi but when I ran out of those, I ended up buying a "professional" selection box of them in the UK and bringing them back on the plane as they were cheaper there.   They really are a great invention.

SimonTrew wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

Never had anyone come round ours when I bought my house, I did buy it mortgage free, maybe that had something to do with it?

Possibly, but I would think that would make you more likely to get a spot-check, because to get the mortgage you have to show the lender that the property is worth what you say it is worth (although I don't suppose they mind if it is worth more), and they get a surveyor out to value it, and so on, before offering you the mortgage -- whereas mortgage-free you have more opportunity to under-declare its value (not saying you did, of course).

I'm sure it's just a routine pseudo-random assessment.

Tax offices don't usually do random assessment these days.  It's a waste of resources and a bit old fashioned.  There's probably something like you've got something in the details (parameters) which scored as higher risk or your purchase is statistically within transactional outliers and this combined will have selected you for a check.

fluffy2560 wrote:

You can buy a temporary sink at say, Bauhaus or wherever, plumb in that temporarily.  We did that in our kitchen. I think we paid about 7K HUF for the cheapest sink with drainer there and I bodged an old kitchen cupboard and work surface out of some scrap.  Now we've almost finished the kitchen we've chucked it all outside.  It's quite bashed up so it'll go in the skip I expect.

Yeah,  I think I can go cheaper than that. We ordered the wrong cabinet from Mobelix (600mm instead of 500mm) and didn't bother to return it, their service is so bad we got very fed up with them and just said we will use it in the garage or something. Already I have used the door for the cupboard under the stairs (which lead into the kitchen) as there was a 600mm oven there before so bright idea, 600mm door fits a treat on a piano hinge, matches the rest of the cabinets. But I have the rest of the cabinet and can do without a door. I have a single sink in the garage  and spare countertop, so  all I need is a tap and I should be home and dry (or rather wet). I've put inline valve stops on already so I don't even need to turn off the main. Thanks for that Fluffster as you've helped me think it through. I don't think I have a spare tap but they are ten a forint.

For the junction boxes, I've started using lever and push fit

I know I am superstitious for it, but I just don't trust push fit (not for water either). I would always be worried that the thing would fall out. There's a certain satisfaction in pulling a tail and it won't come and you know it never will, or using a compression fit and knowing it won't move (never learned solder joint plumbing, keep meaning to as far cheaper). Anyway for plumbing the pushfit looks so bulky and ugly.

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

I'm sure it's just a routine pseudo-random assessment.

Tax offices don't usually do random assessment these days.  It's a waste of resources and a bit old fashioned.  There's probably something like you've got something in the details (parameters) which scored as higher risk or your purchase is statistically within transactional outliers and this combined will have selected you for a check.

I'm sure you're right, that's why I said pseudo-random! It is interesting (to me) to speculate on what it might be. My guess is that it is because I am merely the guarantor and she the sole mortgagee, even though we have been married quite a while. They might view that as something of a tax dodge although in fact it is completely tax-neutral.

klsallee wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

I have several arguments against that, from the fact that things cost what they cost (something is worth what someone will pay for it, in a free exchange)

Actually, it depends. As a facetious example, one can not pay 1 HUF for a property and call that the tax basis.

Indeed, that applies to purchasing almost anything. I remember many years ago a car dealer in UK got done for selling cars on a Sunday (which was then not allowed, but food was). He actually was selling apples for £5,000 a pop and throwing in a free Mini Metro or whatever. I think he escaped prosecution under the Sunday Trading laws, but they got him for tax evasion of the VAT, arguing that apples are not worth that much. So yes, how much something is worth is not, in law, simply the case of two people agreeing a price. An element of common sense creeps in.

Similarly there was a case where some bright spark decided to sell cigarettes that were double-king size with a filter at both ends, for a longer, healthier smoke. Unscrupulous smokers were, however, cutting the cigarettes in half and smoking them normally. Because duty on cigarettes is per cigarette, the loss to Her Majesty was... swiftly restored by the courts.

But I do think there should be three verdicts in English law: Guilty, Not Guilty, and Clever.

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

I'm sure it's just a routine pseudo-random assessment.

Tax offices don't usually do random assessment these days.  It's a waste of resources and a bit old fashioned.  There's probably something like you've got something in the details (parameters) which scored as higher risk or your purchase is statistically within transactional outliers and this combined will have selected you for a check.

I'm sure you're right, that's why I said pseudo-random!

I did notice but it's more nuanced than pseudo-random.  Maybe call it statistical?

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

I'm sure you're right, that's why I said pseudo-random!

I did notice but it's more nuanced than pseudo-random.  Maybe call it statistical?

Yes. And from our statistically insignificant sample of four it seems that I have been singled out. I wonder why. They were perfectly polite and said they had sent a letter that they were coming, but we never got it. Had we got it, I would not have opened the door in my dressing gown (fnarr fnarr).

Not that it matters they were perfectly polite and cheerful, I had all the doors open etc already as I had been doing odd jobs early morning and hadn't time to get dressed yet.

SimonTrew wrote:

I've put inline valve stops on already so I don't even need to turn off the main. Thanks for that Fluffster as you've helped me think it through. I don't think I have a spare tap but they are ten a forint.

Easy really.  The inline valves are easy enough to install. Usually the pipes are holes in the wall on 1/2" BSP fittings. Then you have a fancy looking screw in valve in chrome (with knob), then the bendy pipes to the tap mixer connections.  I use PTFE to seal the joints although sometimes I use horse hair and a sealant.  Either works fine.

SimonTrew wrote:

I know I am superstitious for it, but I just don't trust push fit (not for water either). I would always be worried that the thing would fall out. There's a certain satisfaction in pulling a tail and it won't come and you know it never will, or using a compression fit and knowing it won't move (never learned solder joint plumbing, keep meaning to as far cheaper). Anyway for plumbing the pushfit looks so bulky and ugly.

I'm only talking about electrical connections.  The electrical push fit works a treat. Really quick and painless to add/remove wires. 

I agree about the water pipes.  I wouldn't want push fit for water. I don't trust it either. The big issue here is freezing pipes. That's why everyone has welded steel pipes for their heating.  Exposed copper is just too weak, it will ice up and then it'll burst.  Steel pipes are absurd for heating as it'll oxidise, produce gas inside and eventually knacker your rads and possibly even the heat exchanger in the boiler.  This all leads into using anti-freeze (Glycol) for the circulation and to combat freezing. They usually have an anti-oxidant and anti-corrosion action (UK brand would be say, Fernox)   You can fit a "magnet" filter to clean up the iron filings from inside the system.   Quite common now.  I have heard about people using car anti-freeze in their heating. It should work but it's hardly eco-friendly.

Anyway, as I said, copper is too weak even with soldering.    Usually people here gas weld steel joints for heating but I actually prefer to use brazing even if it's marginally more expensive (rods cost £2 a pop). But it's extremely strong and it's possible to braze using more easily available Mapp gas rather than oxy-acetylene normally for steel rod welding.   

I have all these possibilities here in my shed - TIG, stick, oxy and Mapp gas.  Stick welding is the easiest but it takes some skill to get a weld looking perfect - I am getting better at it but I have variable results so it's practice and practice more.  I almost exclusively use the stick welder now as the others are a hassle.  Stick welders are cheap to buy and the rods are relatively cheap as well.   It's well worth learning to weld stuff. Fantastically useful skill.

SimonTrew wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimonTrew wrote:

I'm sure you're right, that's why I said pseudo-random!

I did notice but it's more nuanced than pseudo-random.  Maybe call it statistical?

Yes. And from our statistically insignificant sample of four it seems that I have been singled out. I wonder why. They were perfectly polite and said they had sent a letter that they were coming, but we never got it. Had we got it, I would not have opened the door in my dressing gown (fnarr fnarr).

Not that it matters they were perfectly polite and cheerful, I had all the doors open etc already as I had been doing odd jobs early morning and hadn't time to get dressed yet.

They have to send a letter. That's what they are supposed to do.  They won't tell you normally why you were selected. But they usually send letters registered post.

They turned up unexpectedly to my house in Austria. I wasn't actually living there at that time as it had been for sale for some years and we were living in Hungary. There were two of them, a strange man and a woman (she was the boss).   It was very lucky I was actually there.

The man was not very nice - let's call him Mr Seggfej.  He was interested in my roof all the time and kept insisting we went there.  Basically turns out the previous owner had applied for planning permission and there was a time limit on the building work.  As the time limit was approaching the end they wanted to check if the work had been done.   In that house, the planned changes - as submitted - included roof conversion.  So Mr Seggfej looked at me triumphantly and thought that he had me by the goolies in that my roof was now extra rooms etc which would have changed the valuation and I had said nothing to them about it. Haha, we'll get evil Fluffy for all sorts of bad behaviour. 

I opened the roof door and he saw it was basically a giant storage area completely unmodernised and full of junk. Uninhabitable.   From the outside it looked much better.   Seggfej's face dropped.  His triumphant look reduced to looking like an idiot.  I really quite enjoyed that bit.

Anyway, the trigger for inspection was expiry of the planning permission and/or I suppose completion of the building work.  So maybe that's the same here.

SimonTrew wrote:

the whizzy new fridge/freezer that makes its own ice

As opposed, of course, to old fridge/freezers that were always making their own ice and you needed to defrost them every so often.  But this one only makes it in cubes in a compartment with a satisfying kadonkadonkadonk when it turfs some new ice into the bucket.

I know they have been common in the US for years (I had one) but are still a rarity in Europe I think. I had an ancient one in the UK that came off a USAF base (presumably someone finished their posting) and well once you have one it becomes not a luxury but a necessity really. That was my treat to myself for the new kitchen. A bit big for our kitchen, but we made room. The missus loves it too, she drinks a lot of soft drinks and loves to have ice on tap (if that is not an oxymoron)

fluffy2560 wrote:

They have to send a letter. That's what they are supposed to do.  They won't tell you normally why you were selected. But they usually send letters registered post.

But they can't have done, because the postie would have left a card if we weren't in. Even I know that.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Anyway, the trigger for inspection was expiry of the planning permission and/or I suppose completion of the building work.  So maybe that's the same here.

It's possible, I've not thought of that. I would have thought that would all have been cleared up etc when we bought the place, i.e. what planning permissions are, or are not, outstanding. They did seem a littlesurprised by the wellness, which may have been filled in between the garage and the main house (as it is listed as two buildings but is now one continuous building, albeit no access between the two except via the garden). But it was full of junk as I have been trying to sort this room out then that one, and was using it more for storage than anything, so perhaps they were surprised by my describing it as a wellness instead of a junkyard.

Perhaps the previous owners never applied for permission for it. But EMASZ had to come out to lay in extra wiring etc (althouh it all ultimately works off one meter). Hmm, it could be that maybe. Yet surely since it cost a fortune for them to install, they would have got permission before starting work. Then again, they're Hungarian... I'll ask the missus to check, when she wakes up. In the UK they would tell you to tear it down sharpish, here I imagine they will just bump up the value, if that's what it is. If so, though, it would not explain how they got wind of it, except if it is on the legal description of the property now.

SimonTrew wrote:

......

Perhaps the previous owners never applied for permission for it. But EMASZ had to come out to lay in extra wiring etc (althouh it all ultimately works off one meter). Hmm, it could be that maybe. Yet surely since it cost a fortune for them to install, they would have got permission before starting work. Then again, they're Hungarian... I'll ask the missus to check, when she wakes up. In the UK they would tell you to tear it down sharpish, here I imagine they will just bump up the value, if that's what it is. If so, though, it would not explain how they got wind of it, except if it is on the legal description of the property now.

There's a lot of building going on here without permission. 

My own shed doesn't have planning permission but it's all good as it's been there about 40 years and is on the area/land plan.   Once it's been there 10 years, it doesn't need planning permission.  When we submitted plans for the main house build,  we had to get a friendly neighbour to say (on paper) it's been there "forever" and it was accepted.  Job done. Easier than the UK for sure.

I don't remember the planning permission being recorded on the property record although they have things like easements for say, access by the power company.  It's worth getting your own property record just to see what's in it.

I plan to renovate my shed.  I'm allowed to "maintain" (aka renovate) without permission so long as I don't change the floor area or change the aspect too much. I don't think I'm allowed to make it like a habitable house with say main drainage etc.   I expect I could modify it but so long as it did not look out of place, I doubt anyone would say anything.  Mrs Fluffy doesn't think anyone needs permission to build stuff like walls or paving in the garden either. I expect I'd get complaints if I built guard towers and searchlights.

fluffy2560 wrote:

There's a lot of building going on here without permission.

Indeed, but you'd think for a project as big as that you wouldn't risk it for, as you say below, the relative ease of the permission being granted. But then perhaps I am more risk-averse than most. I will take calculated risks, but not needless ones (he says, chuffing on his third cigarette).

fluffy2560 wrote:

My own shed doesn't have planning permission but it's all good as it's been there about 40 years and is on the area/land plan.   Once it's been there 10 years, it doesn't need planning permission.  When we submitted plans for the main house build,  we had to get a friendly neighbour to say (on paper) it's been there "forever" and it was accepted.  Job done. Easier than the UK for sure.

I don't remember the planning permission being recorded on the property record although they have things like easements for say, access by the power company.  It's worth getting your own property record just to see what's in it.

Well we have all that, having just moved here. Although it did not record the easements for the neighbour's windows overlooking ours, which were granted by the previous owners. Since strictly we were not aware of them on buying the property, I suppose technically we can claim ignorance and build a spite wall right in front of them etc. In practice they are no bother and we have no intention of doing anything of the kind.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I expect I'd get complaints if I built guard towers and searchlights.

Knowing the politics round here, you would have to turn them inwards to keep the bloody foreigners nicely contained within...

fluffy2560 wrote:

Mrs Fluffy doesn't think anyone needs permission to build stuff like walls or paving in the garden either.

No, shouldn't do. In the UK you can generally build up to 2m tall (used to be 6ft I think, so that's a bit of an increase, I knew metrication would lead to inflation...) but there are all kinds of caveats, of course. Basically, Don't cause goods and chattels on your property to harm neighbours is the root of it (and you are responsible for any chattel escaping from your property, so I hope you keep Mrs Fluffy on a good strong leash). Personally in the UK I would ban people having those flick-on bright searchlamps that come on whenever you walk past, blinding you and entirely failing to illuminate their driveway. That to me is a big nuisance, especially if you live in an area without streetlights and your eyes get adjusted to the dark and then BANG thanks for blinding me with your badly directed lamp. Also people should be fined for false burglar alarms etc. Mind you I wouldn't want to live in an area where every house had a burglar alarm box outside, anyway. SimonTrew, safe in the 'burbs, often complains, but rarely disturbs.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Mrs Fluffy doesn't think anyone needs permission to build stuff like walls or paving in the garden either. I expect I'd get complaints if I built guard towers and searchlights.

Well, it depends. And is complicated..... (yes, that again).

I actually checked on this some years ago, as I needed to build a retaining wall to keep the entire hill from sliding into our house. Up to 2 meters in the case of retaining walls did not need a permit (when I officially asked). That was about 8 years ago, however. Don't know if things have changed since.

For fences, around us, they must be much, much lower without a permit, and usually not solid. National park rules, to allow wildlife to go under or over. This rule is often ignored. 

SimonTrew wrote:

Indeed, but you'd think for a project as big as that you wouldn't risk it for, as you say below, the relative ease of the permission being granted.

Around us, most of the ("unlawful") construction is about expanding the house beyond what is legally allowed. So permission would not be granted, so they just do it. If they are caught, they pay a ridiculously tiny fine and little else. The government can demand the extra construction be torn down, but I have never seen that happen.

Our previous owners had a conservatory built but did get planning permission. It really was poorly made from second-hand bits out of a steel frame. The glass was single pane safety glass. (the one with the wire mesh in it). They had in fact built it on top of the old patio.

We weren't over concerned anything would come back on us as it wasn't affecting anyone. But last year, we converted it into a summer room.

Just last week we mad a proper patio with a wall to support the lawn.

SimCityAT wrote:

Our previous owners had a conservatory built but did get planning permission. It really was poorly made from second-hand bits out of a steel frame. The glass was single pane safety glass. (the one with the wire mesh in it). They had in fact built it on top of the old patio.

We weren't over concerned anything would come back on us as it wasn't affecting anyone. But last year, we converted it into a summer room.

Just last week we mad a proper patio with a wall to support the lawn.
....

Looks very nice and profi.

SimonTrew wrote:

....
No, shouldn't do. In the UK you can generally build up to 2m tall (used to be 6ft I think, so that's a bit of an increase, I knew metrication would lead to inflation...) but there are all kinds of caveats, of course. Basically, Don't cause goods and chattels on your property to harm neighbours is the root of it (and you are responsible for any chattel escaping from your property, so I hope you keep Mrs Fluffy on a good strong leash). Personally in the UK I would ban people having those flick-on bright searchlamps t....Mind you I wouldn't want to live in an area where every house had a burglar alarm box outside, anyway. SimonTrew, safe in the 'burbs, often complains, but rarely disturbs.

It's not Mrs Fluffy that's dangerous, it's me and the Fluffyettes.

You wouldn't like it around here as everyone has alarms.  And they (and us) also have lights outside that come on automatically.  One of our lights lights up our neighbour as well but she's very happy as it's a good light for her at night when she's on the way to her rubbish bin.

Here, I think it's 2m max for a wall but otherwise it's up   I previously used fast growing Lleyandii as hedging.  Still allowed here but in the UK I think you need a permit or it'll just be banned.  I expect it'll become illegal here along with Japanese knot weed.