Staying more than 90 days without registering

Well, you broke the law. Both EU and national law. But only the local authorities will act on this, and I for one have no idea what the local authorities may actually do. The range may include: they may shrug it off and give you a residence permit (possible), may fine you (most likely), or may kick you out of the country (unlikely, but possible). And that may be applied differently to different people (one person may be fined, and someone else is just allowed to register -- inconsistency is still not uncommon here).

This is the information page you need to use for forms and data you need to provide as well as answers your question about jobs and residency permit. There is also an email link to the Hungarian immigration office so you can ask your question directly:

http://www.bmbah.hu/index.php?option=co … mp;lang=en

BobBUDa wrote:

Hello

I am a British citizen and have been volunteering in Hungary for a year. Unfortunately, i never went about getting a registration certificate.

Does anyone know what the consequence of this will be as I may need to get one soon to get a job.

Also, when gaining employment here, do you get the job first and then apply for a registration certificate and tax number? Or are you supposed to apply for the certificates first?

Thanks!

Notwithstanding any obvious requirement to comply with the law....for the sake of practicality.....

You could always just turn up and register and not mention any previous times in Hungary.  Presumably you were not here all the time and went home or somewhere else occasionally.  Therefore your 90 days supposedly was reset each time you went out.  This is of course really simplistic for many purposes.  Way back in the 1990s, there was no concept of repetitive presence in the country - if you want out and turned around and came back in, this was a reset on the days in country. Not the same as now I guess.

Your transport method is important. This is Schengen and unless you drove your own car, they wouldn't know if you were here or now.  Be aware they scan the car plates on the way in and out.   

If you flew into Vienna, then obviously you are scanned by APIS (Advance Passenger Information System).  But if your friend picked you up and drove you in, unless they stopped the vehicle and scanned your passport, they don't know you are here - you could have gone anywhere within Schengen.  Be aware the police (even the mobile ones) can enter your passport number into their system and see if you come up on a list.  They can and do check on a traffic stop. 

One thing to be aware of at the airports (i.e. external borders, anywhere in the EU), is that the authorities will check all documents, even for EU citizens.   This was EU law on 7th April 2017 (EU passport checks). I travel a great deal and all it has done is cause massive queues and hassle at the passport desk.  They didn't even scan my passport earlier this week despite the EU law, they just glanced at it and gave it back.  The 500 other people behind me didn't seem to be happy about the delays.  I cannot see any of these checks doing anything for security.

So anyway, so the usual thing with any government is not to volunteer anything you don't have to.  If they ask the wrong question or make a mistake, that's not your fault.  My neighbour is a retired lawyer and judge.  He told me that!

fluffy2560 wrote:

You could always just turn up and register and not mention any previous times in Hungary.  Presumably you were not here all the time and went home or somewhere else occasionally.  Therefore your 90 days supposedly was reset each time you went out.  This is of course really simplistic for many purposes.  Way back in the 1990s, there was no concept of repetitive presence in the country - if you want out and turned around and came back in, this was a reset on the days in country. Not the same as now I guess.

FWIIW: When I first registered for residency when I knew my 3 months would expire, I had to show proof when I entered the country.

Other than that, why play games? I double checked on this and I must correct myself: you can not be kicked out of the country. A fine is the worst. Just go in an be honest and pay any fine (assuming they even ask for a fine, which they may or may not do).

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/re … dex_en.htm

fluffy2560 wrote:

So anyway, so the usual thing with any government is not to volunteer anything you don't have to.  If they ask the wrong question or make a mistake, that's not your fault.  My neighbour is a retired lawyer and judge.  He told me that!

True.  If nobody asks, you do not have to volunteer.

But.... if the residency is for employment, then paperwork gets involved. And signing paperwork (usually in Hungarian). If they investigate and found you omitted something, especially if you sign anything that says in part all information you provided "is factual and complete under penalty of perjury", they can get you for "being incomplete". And who gets to decide what is relevant or not complete? They do. And then you may have a fraud issue against yourself. Don't mess with The Powers That Be (especially in a foreign country).

This is a minor issue, so again, I suggest just coming clean if there is even the slightest reason (obvious or implied) to do so, because there really is no reason not to. Removes any clouds over your head and wipes the slate clean. Doing other wise (or even suggesting it) gives all expats a bad name : even if one suggests scamming or "tweaking" the issue in our host country, the locals may start to think we all might be thinking of ways to scam our host countries.

I will use myself as an example. I first moved to Switzerland. I submitted the paperwork late (just lost track of days... stuff happens). Too bad for me. I broke the law. I came clean when submitting my paperwork for residency. Yes, I was fined. But I was told specifically I was fined the smallest* amount possible because I was honest about it all. And I still got Swiss residency, which I maintained for many years after. In short, I was stupid, paid the stupidity tax, and moved on with life. Trying to cover it up, however and IMHO, would have gone beyond stupid and into a real crime.

* 250 CHF, which I guess is "small" given Swiss incomes .

klsallee wrote:

...Other than that, why play games? I double checked on this and I must correct myself: you can not be kicked out of the country. A fine is the worst. Just go in an be honest and pay any fine (assuming they even ask for a fine, which they may or may not do). ...

As the OP was British, in theory it's an EU entitlement to be here. OK, it's not in all circumstances and one can be deported but the chances are almost zero. 

I don't condone not registering and I would always suggest being compliant but why encourage the authorities to investigate when there's not really any fire and no detectable smoke?   Sometimes being compliant is just really difficult.

Hello guys,

Thank you for the replies. Basically, the story is that i was only meant to be here for less than 3 months but I've just never ended up leaving. When I looked up all the information I was 99% certain that I was leaving to move back to the UK within the 3 months. Obviously this is my oversight, and I am not trying to hide or anything, but I have had no paid work, no medical trips etc etc and I am an EU citizen.

The question is, now that I would like to try and work here I want to be 100% open with everything. But if going to the immigration office now would cause me legal problems, I would rather just leave the country and try somewhere new. To get my residence card, I would have to show where I live which would show how long I've 'technically' been here - even though I've spent large amounts of time in nearby countries. This is the big problem.

I entered through train from the Netherlands via Germany and Austria, no passport scans etc. In the past year I have been to Slovakia and back with no passport scans etc. I did however, travel to a non-EU bordering country 5 weeks ago and back, where my passport was scanned.

fluffy2560 wrote:

One thing to be aware of at the airports (i.e. external borders, anywhere in the EU), is that the authorities will check all documents, even for EU citizens.   This was EU law on 7th April 2017 (EU passport checks). I travel a great deal and all it has done is cause massive queues and hassle at the passport desk.  They didn't even scan my passport earlier this week despite the EU law, they just glanced at it and gave it back.  t!

Interesting, I had noticed for the last few months they always take my passport into the little border control hut at Gola and I see them looking at information on a monitor. Before they used to sometimes just flick through the pages and hand it back. Last time there was a minibus full of people in front of me and they were kept waiting for ages.

fidobsa wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

One thing to be aware of at the airports (i.e. external borders, anywhere in the EU), is that the authorities will check all documents, even for EU citizens.   This was EU law on 7th April 2017 (EU passport checks). I travel a great deal and all it has done is cause massive queues and hassle at the passport desk.  They didn't even scan my passport earlier this week despite the EU law, they just glanced at it and gave it back.  t!

Interesting, I had noticed for the last few months they always take my passport into the little border control hut at Gola and I see them looking at information on a monitor. Before they used to sometimes just flick through the pages and hand it back. Last time there was a minibus full of people in front of me and they were kept waiting for ages.

Yes, that's the "new checks" as Croatia is not currently in Schengen and therefore an "external border". 

Absolute waste of time really doing all that messing about with passports.  If it's supposed to stop terrorism, it won't because many "lone-wolfs" aren't on their radar anyway. 

And just to be perverse and totally contradictory to what I just said, it could be they are thinking of returnees on watch lists coming from Syria or Iraq, in which case, I agree 100% with it!

BobBUDa wrote:

Hello guys,

Thank you for the replies. Basically, the story is that i was only meant to be here for less than 3 months but I've just never ended up leaving. When I looked up all the information I was 99% certain that I was leaving to move back to the UK within the 3 months. Obviously this is my oversight, and I am not trying to hide or anything, but I have had no paid work, no medical trips etc etc and I am an EU citizen.

The question is, now that I would like to try and work here I want to be 100% open with everything. But if going to the immigration office now would cause me legal problems, I would rather just leave the country and try somewhere new. To get my residence card, I would have to show where I live which would show how long I've 'technically' been here - even though I've spent large amounts of time in nearby countries. This is the big problem....

Actually I think it won't matter much.  I think they'll just ignore it.  They aren't that efficient.  After all, you never claimed anything from them.  You could have just been on holiday for all they know and you were coming and going to other countries so perhaps you never actually spent more than 90 days here.  And of course, they don't know what you were doing anyway.

If you are really worried about, why don't you just change apartments or write a new contract with the owner and therefore appear to start from scratch?   

Not that I would condone such behaviour.

BobBUDa wrote:

But if going to the immigration office now would cause me legal problems, I would rather just leave the country and try somewhere new. To get my residence card, I would have to show where I live which would show how long I've 'technically' been here - even though I've spent large amounts of time in nearby countries. This is the big problem.

The biggest issue will be the paperwork they normally expect. You will either need a job offer or proof of sufficient income and health insurance and proof of residence. That will take time to get together and get approved. May be done in one trip, or the immigration office may want more details, resulting in multiple trips.

Otherwise, I think you are over thinking the fine. The fine is like a parking ticket. You parked too long. If anyone notices, you get a ticket. You pay the ticket. If that is too much trouble, then yes, you may want to go elsewhere, because Hungarian bureaucracy will not get more simple after you register as living here. You still need to get your address card, for example (another trip to an office), as well as tax registration and possible national health registration, etc. etc. etc. And not speaking the language, you may run afoul of local ordnances at any time without knowing it. This may not be the first or only fine you pay in Hungary.

I am probably way off base and wrong but I was under the impression that if you were from another EU country then your stay in Hungary was all well and good without the hassles of immigration issues.
Of course I have no real idea about this because perhaps with the UK leaving the EU the rules are changing for UK citizens?
In any case I do not think it is a huge problem since you are from another EU country, the UK has not officially left just yet.
Then again if there is any loop hole anyways to fine anyone and make some money they , the powers that be will figure out how to get into your wallet.
Perhaps for those with jobs in HU the laws are different and you need to register so to pay taxes in Hungary?

All you can do is apply for your temporary registration card and your address card right now. I found this quite a simple process but because my Hungarian language is poor I employed an agent to attend the office with me to translate etc.
I am also a UK person and semi retired. We are still EEC and entitled to live here but it is still a good idea to let the authorities know that you are not just a tourist.

All you can do is apply for your temporary registration card and your address card right now. I found this quite a simple process but because my Hungarian language is poor I employed an agent to attend the office with me to translate etc.
I am also a UK person and semi retired. We are still EEC and entitled to live here but it is still a good idea to let the authorities know that you are not just a tourist.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

I am probably way off base and wrong but I was under the impression that if you were from another EU country then your stay in Hungary was all well and good without the hassles of immigration issues.
Of course I have no real idea about this because perhaps with the UK leaving the EU the rules are changing for UK citizens?
In any case I do not think it is a huge problem since you are from another EU country, the UK has not officially left just yet.
Then again if there is any loop hole anyways to fine anyone and make some money they , the powers that be will figure out how to get into your wallet.
Perhaps for those with jobs in HU the laws are different and you need to register so to pay taxes in Hungary?

The UK is still in the EU and until it leaves the block any UK citizen does not need to worry about going to the Immigration office.

EU or not, registration is still compulsory.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

I am probably way off base and wrong but I was under the impression that if you were from another EU country then your stay in Hungary was all well and good without the hassles of immigration issues....

Yes, you are right .....but....it's not a fundamental right. They can still deport people, refuse entry etc.   So one could go to say, Sweden, live with a friend and spend 90 days there looking for a job.  There's no requirement for a work or a residence permit.   EU citizens can live in any EEA country but have to abide by the same rules as the locals - e.g. registration after X days.  There is a quirk on it and that's for the spouses who don't work to have medical insurance in order to get permanent residence (after 5 years).  That's  been around for ages and discussed in these forums.   Basically you don't need permission to be in the country, find work and start living there (i.e. just like anyone else).  That's always been my understanding.

As for the UK, we're still members, nothing changed (yet).  Post-2019, who knows.

fluffy2560 wrote:

EU citizens can live in any EEA country but have to abide by the same rules as the locals - e.g. registration after X days.

  Locals have no special rules to reside in their own country.    I think you may be mixing up the resident address card required by everyone here (expats and Hungarians) versus the registration of residency which only EEA expats have to do.

And, yes, there are certainly special residence rules for EEA nationals in Hungary, and they are clearly stated at the link I posted in my first comment. The rules for an EEA national to reside in Hungary are:

An EEA national shall have the right of residence exceeding ninety days within a one hundred and eighty day period if he/she:

  -  plans to engage in gainful employment;
  -  has sufficient resources for him/herself and his/her family members not to become an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system of Hungary during the period of their stay, and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover for healthcare services as prescribed in specific other legislation, or if he/she assures to have sufficient resources for such services as required by statutory provisions; or
   - enrolled at an educational institution governed by the Act on the National Public Education System....

One of the above reasons should be provided by the EEA national to the appropriate local Hungarian authorities, and if none can be provided, there is no obligation for Hungary to allow them to remain in Hungary (but really, if one is in Hungary 90 days without working, and can not at least prove the second option, that person has some serious problems). Also do note there is a 90 days in 180 day rule as well. Just leaving for a day every 89 days (for example and mentioned elsewhere), does not reset that clock.

klsallee wrote:

  Locals have no special rules to reside in their own country.    I think you may be mixing up the resident address card required by everyone here (expats and Hungarians) versus the registration of residency which only EEA expats have to do.

Well, yes they do and I am not mixing anything up.  They must register at the local registration office just the same if they move towns. And they should update their other registrations as well.  Mrs Fluffy is doing it herself right now.

klsallee wrote:

And, yes, there are certainly special residence rules for EEA nationals in Hungary, and they are clearly stated at the link I posted in my first comment. The rules for an EEA national to reside in Hungary are:

"......, and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover for healthcare services as prescribed in specific other legislation, or if he/she assures to have sufficient resources for such services as required by statutory provisions;...."

Yes, that's what I said. Usually it applies to the spouses if the  other half is working.

klsallee wrote:

.....Also do note there is a 90 days in 180 day rule as well. Just leaving for a day every 89 days (for example and mentioned elsewhere), does not reset that clock.

That's correct and the reason that's there now is because of the OECD tax residence test.  This didn't exist previously but all EU countries are signed up to the OECD model.  It used to be that you could leave  the country and could get a reset as they didn't have  the concept of residence tests. But indeed, that's no longer the case.  The test on tax varies but if one reads the tax treaty it says - habituality, physical presence, centre of personal life, owning property, property available for use etc and not having any other treaty residence country.  These are model OECD tests.

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

  Locals have no special rules to reside in their own country.    I think you may be mixing up the resident address card required by everyone here (expats and Hungarians) versus the registration of residency which only EEA expats have to do.

Well, yes they do and I am not mixing anything up.  They must register at the local registration office just the same if they move towns. And they should update their other registrations as well.  Mrs Fluffy is doing it herself right now.

Address registration is not the same as registering for residence. The later I take as the thread topic, not the former. Hungarians do not need to register for residence. Being able to do both at the same office is not germane; they are different issues and require filing of different paperwork.

But to put this to rest, I am just pointing out that "e.g. registration after X days" was just not specific enough for full clarity since there are different types of registrations, and it may lead an expat doing their first residence registration to think they only need to provide and register their address, which is not correct.