Are Puerto Rican's full US Citizens?

Hey, ReyP. I know you're getting at bigger issues than this narrow definitional issue, but nonetheless: Under US law, there are two categories of what we think of as Americans: US citizens and US nationals. Puerto Ricans are citizens. In contrast, people from American Samoa, for instance, are nationals but not citizens. It is not hard for them to become citizens, however, and their passports are the same as a citizen's.

Yes it is a bigger question, there are many laws in the books about this and how congress treats the island and since Congress has full powers over the island it can change how it deals with the island and it's inhabitants.

This import tax for Cars and some other properties is a good example how things are not equal and how PR is a foreign country in my opinion. When I moved from Colorado to MA, for example, there was little cost of registering my vehicle in MA, yet I would had had several thousands of dollars in import taxes if I had moved to PR. Not only that but PR sets a much higher value for the property than the US does, further increasing the import tax. Just to be clear the example is for the tax not the transport, that is extra.

PR also participates in Miss Universe representing itself, the same for the Olympics, yet it is required to use US ships in order to import items from around the world (jones act). Promesa act is another example, how 7 people have been put in charge of the finances of Puerto Rico and now have veto powers over budgets, expenses and laws being created by dully elected Puerto Rican Officials.

The status of the island and the level of citizenship make a difference of how the island and citizens are treated. The article makes a difference between basic rights and constitutional rights of the citizens. Other articles I have read (don't have them handy) have also made a point that Puerto Ricans do not have the same constitutional right (not counting Voting for the President) as those living in the US. I seem to recall something about not having a constitutional right to a jury trial in some instances unlike those living in the mainland.

Right.  There are indeed some thorny issues here, especially if you consider the hypothetical of Puerto Rican independence.  But from a legal/constitutional perspective, the citizenship of Puerto Ricans is settled, as is the question of whether the national government can strip a citizen of his or her citizenship.

WarnerW wrote:

Right.  There are indeed some thorny issues here, especially if you consider the hypothetical of Puerto Rican independence.  But from a legal/constitutional perspective, the citizenship of Puerto Ricans is settled, as is the question of whether the national government can strip a citizen of his or her citizenship.

Stripping here as in an individual or all island inhabitants who have committed no crimes as a whole?
How was that part settled, I do not recall?

As a formal, constitutional matter, only 538 people have the power to cast ballots for the President.  These are electors, and they are chosen by their states.  By the process of constitutional amendment (the 23rd), The District of Columbia has three electors.  Since PR is not a state, it has no electors.  This has nothing to do with the citizenship of Puerto Ricans.

Puerto Ricans enjoy all of the constitutional rights and civil liberties as does every other U.S. citizen.  That there are differences between PR and the mainland is true.  That there are different policies in PR is true.  But that is not a function of citizenship -- it's a function of PR's position as a Territory.

The U.S. cannot strip a citizen of his or her citizenship.  You may renounce your citizenship, but it may not be taken from you.  See Afroyim v. Rusk, 387 U.S. 253 (1967).

Yes you are correct Warner, I seen no difference between other US citizens in the mainland and those from Puerto Rico that move to a state.

WarnerW wrote:

The U.S. cannot strip a citizen of his or her citizenship.  You may renounce your citizenship, but it may not be taken from you.  See Afroyim v. Rusk, 387 U.S. 253 (1967).

You would think they could given that their been a number of people send to jail as traitors but do not loose their citizenship. To me that should be ok.

Since I was not born in PR, I can only watch the debate over PR statehood or independence as a humble observer. I have talked with a few people in PR regarding this choice and there seems to be quite a bit of debate as to the pros and cons.

The first thing I think about is US citizen status. If PR were to go independent some groups think that PR would retain some benefits, even US citizenship. I don't find that to be a likely outcome for children born day one after independence occurred. As such future ability to travel to the US mainland for jobs or to visit family could be severely limited for children born in an independent PR.

I guess the next question is would current people that were born in PR have a dual citizenship?

Some people I spoke with worried that PR would lose its culture if it became a state.

Culture is directly influenced by a local population. Examples of this are all over the mainland like Chinatowns, Little Italy's, etc that within that locality may speak a different language and have different customs than the mainstream US. Larger examples are areas of southern California and Texas where the local grocery store employees are bilingual and products label are written in both English and Spanish.

Since PR is geographically isolated it would be less effected. I think only a very significant increase in non Puerto Ricans would cause PR culture be influenced. This is true anywhere in the world. But in the current economic situation I don't think it is likely to have a large migration to PR.

Business is the other thing that people worry about that can change culture. But traveling all over PR I see all of the common stores, etc. as the mainland. It didn't seem to me to have affected the culture too much. But mine was a short term observation, so my observation may be incorrect?

I love the PR culture. It is one of the main reasons I bought property there and will move there soon. I just hope the best for PR in light of the economic problems and upcoming hardships caused by it.

The plans for language if it becomes a state is for schools, goverment and courts to all require English as the only or primary language. This will be a tremendous burden on the population.
Customs are likely to also be affected and let's not forget locals having to pay Federal Tax on top of PR tax which the majority do not have to pay today. Since PR is not efficient in its government and services the combination of the 2 taxes is going to hurt. Those of us that only pay Federal will also have to pay PR state tax which is also going to hurt.

I am against statehood and would prefer some form of independence even if we were to lose the US citizenship and all the welfare programs. Giving up our customs and language is too big of a price in my opinion, but I am in the minority so it does not mater what I think.

About citizenship, like Warner said it can't be taken away from individuals or a group.
Congress could theoretically decide that from a certain point of time children born in Puerto Rico will not automatically be US citizen but that  would not take away the citizenship from people who are now citizen.

The only difference between citizens who live in the 50 states and the citizens who live in PR is the latter group cannot vote in the presidential elections. Also, since we don't have representatives and senators in DC (only a non-voting so called residential commissioner) we are not properly represented in congress.

The not being eligible to vote for a president goes for any US citizen who officially has residence here, be it a Puerto Rico born citizen, a citizen born in one of the 50 states or a naturalized citizen (like myself).
This is why some say that we here in PR are second hand citizens.

As soon as a citizen moves to and takes residence in one of the 50 states they are eligible to vote in presidential elections.

...according to my third grade teacher, 1973, yes!

ReyP, I know you are a logical thinker, so I would like your ideas on the subject of an independent PR.

Considering the debt that the PR government has, and the unlikely prospect that any entity would provide more loans to an independent PR, how would an independent PR provide the pensions that it owes to its retired teachers, police officers, etc?

According to statistics, a large percentage of the PR public uses Medicaid/Medicare for health care. How would an independent PR provide healthcare if these programs did not exist?

What could a independent PR government do to streamline its operations to work within a budget that an independent PR citizen could afford to pay for?

Thinking cap on............................
First off, independence in any form or statehood, will wait for at least 7 years. So some of those concerns will disappear.

Given that the Promesa Federal Board is forcing Puerto Rico goverment to balance their budget, the budget at that time will be fine.

As to medical, while I don't like the form of goverment in Cuba, they have made significant advances in medicine and development of drugs. Even the US is looking into some of the medical related technology created by Cuba and new drugs created by then. If they could do it with the low cash situation and the blockade, PR should be able to do it.
PR is likely to keep the dollar due to strength, ease, and stability. It will be able to carry goods using any ships it wants which it is not allowed to do today, and form it own shipping industry which is not allowed today. It would be able to speak and negotiate with any other country and attract visitors that today may not be allowed to allow in due to inmigration rules.

But the one thing PR has to do above all is select better leaders and fight corruption.

I am for democratic goverment.

How is that?

Having seen former some colonies becoming independent I think it's a recipe for disaster. Power hungry politicians, corrupt politicians, soaring crime, you name it.

Good thing there's hardly (5% or less) support for independence but if it would happen I'd be among the first to pack my bags and leave.

That's as much as I can and want to say a about this. It's a political subject and politics shouldn't be discussed here. >> https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=224196

Gary, I know that the expat forum states "The Expat.com forum is dedicated to expat related matters.Topics related to politics or religion won't be accepted."

This statement is obviously intended to keep arguments from occurring.

The problem is that the first sentence "The Expat.com forum is dedicated to expat related matters." conflicts with the second "Topics related to politics or religion won't be accepted."

Expats are directly affected by politics. The government affects expats. The government is driven by politics.

My post was an attempt to logically discuss the topic without emotion or taking sides.

I apologize for any offense against the Expat forum rules.

Oh, I didn't direct this to you, sorry you got the impression.
I just noticed that the topic, including my own reply, could go into a unwanted direction so this was meant as a reminder for everyone (including myself )

Thanks Gary. I very much understand your statement. Too many times I have seen other forums get overrun with emotion. I would not want that to happen here.

The intend was to simply introduce the article, not to agree or disagree with its content. But it does affect Expats for example when it comes to taxation and recovery of the economy and the factors involved.

I met a man in Michigan, where I lived for 4 1/2 years, before coming to PR. This man was a janitor, in a local hospital. Upon talking with the man, I learned that he was from Cuba, where he was a medical doctor, before coming to the US. He told me how poor he and his friends and family were, and because he did very well in school, he was sent to college, where he was able to get in to medical school. After leaving medical school, he was given an apartment, a bicycle, and a $25/month salary... tell me that Communism works. When he had the opportunity, he escaped, and is happier working as a janitor, in a Lansing Michigan Hospital, than working as a MD in Cuba.