Trip Report on my quest to buy property in PR

Delighted to hear that it went so well!  I'm green with envy.

I don't mean to pry, but for the sake of those looking for advice on purchasing, I presume you made a cash offer?  My experience has been that loans are difficult to acquire (and I have excellent credit).

Second, would you consider recommending the lawyer on the forum page for that purpose?  If luck goes well I'll need one too.

Bkettren,
I am glad it all worked for you and that the trip was successful. Out of curiosity, can you describe the land and what it cost you?

Btw, we do not bore easily and love stories of people coming to the island so don't be shy.

Oh please, bore away!
Cold winter in NH are great for Novels of areas of interest.
Elaborate away!

I'm heading down in March, not to buy, but to discover what I can and decide if I shall.
Two items I'm not completely happy with my plan is 1st the vehicle I'm renting and 2nd my 1st nights stay.
What did you rent (and from whom) for a vehicle?
Where did you stay on the first night?

The balance of the stays are awesome (one from a member here I look forward to meeting and learning from).

So please do elaborate on your adventure.

I just looked up the area. If right, east coast (southern part). I'll be driving through there coming out of Ponce.
Obviously interested in why you picked the area.

I'll try to answer the questions;

We paid $75,000. The property is at 500 feet elevation. About 2 acres of it is flat and ready to build, and the rest of it is hillside. We paid cash.

I drove completely around the island to find an area that "called to me". I found the property listed in Clasificadosonline (not spelled correctly most likely).

The road 3 through Pattillas to Maunabo reminded me of my youth. I grew up in southern California and spent time on the coast from Ventura to Pacific Grove after high school working as a carpenter. I love when the mountains meet the ocean. You get a great ocean view and are still very close to the water without danger of flooding.

I traveled to PR thinking I could "wing it" on motels. I booked the first night in San Juan at the Dreams Hotel (great staff, relatively cheap $70, but not the best location). I realized quickly that there are no roadside motels like on the mainland and my wife used AirBNB to find places for me to stay the rest of my trip. Since it was last minute, most places only had availability for one or two nights in a row, so I moved around a lot.

I rented from Avis through Travelocity a economy car and paid about $600 total for the 3 weeks plus the tolls from toll roads that got added on. Fuel was between $.66 and $.70 a litre.

I wanted to close the deal before I left, so I went into Banco Popular and asked if they had lawyers they worked with. They were nice a gave me a list of lawyers. I was in Ponce at the time, so I chose Nelsa Lopez, an lawyer in Ponce. She was great.

Thank you for all of this wonderful information! Definitely needed for the forum and not at all boring.

You got yourself a great deal!!!!!!!
Congratulations

ReyP, agreed, we got a great deal!

The property was overgrown and hard show for the real estate agent. I have always been an outdoor person so I pushed my way through the 7 feet and taller ferns and vines to get to see the property. The agents were reluctant to show it too me at first, because they said it was too overgrown to show. I insisted I wanted to see it, and the rest is history.

The owners are living in Luquillo and needed the money to fix their sailboat. The husband was from the mainland and his wife was born in PR. Sailing is their main passion, so they sold the land to fix the boat.

bkettren wrote:

ReyP, agreed, we got a great deal!

The property was overgrown and hard show for the real estate agent. I have always been an outdoor person so I pushed my way through the 7 feet and taller ferns and vines to get to see the property. The agents were reluctant to show it too me at first, because they said it was too overgrown to show. I insisted I wanted to see it, and the rest is history.

The owners are living in Luquillo and needed the money to fix their sailboat. The husband was from the mainland and his wife was born in PR. Sailing is their main passion, so they sold the land to fix the boat.

Sounds to me like they screw up big time, the price you got is at least 1/2 of what it should have been if thought off as cheap, the price you payed is more like 1/8 of its real value nowadays.
Want to sell it?

No ReyP, I plan to live out the rest of my life on that hill! We will be happy to have you and your wife over for dinner when we both get to PR.

That sounds like a plan, my land in Ceiba is not too far from you, so I plan to take you on that offer but it will be a while.

So when do you plan to move?
Still thinking of an eco lodge?

We plan to move as soon as we can sell our ranch in Texas. I also have to sell all of my equipment... 2008 1 ton  dodge (only 40,000 miles) tractor, concrete mixer, dump trailer, shop equipment, etc. So it will probably take a couple of years, hopefully sooner.

Yes the eco lodge or eco AirBnB is still a strong possibility. We will need to get our house built first. The land is actually 2 lots of about 6+ acres each. One of them has the flat land, the other mostly hillside. We will have to see what we can do with the hillside.

Either way we plan to grow many different things such as avocados, mango, banana, etc.
A couple of the properties next to ours have cleared some of the hillside and planted these type of things, so it should work to integrate some of this into our plans also.

Hobbit houses along the hill, 
Don't forget the round doors and windows. Build into the hill and part of nature.

They say it is location, location, location. My farm is 1200 feet above sea level. It is 32 cuerdas. There is a paved highway that runs along the property for 1/2 mile. there are easily 4 building sites with easy access  to electric and water. The land goes from the road to the top of the mountain. Beautiful views of a good portion of the South Coast of the island. We are 10 to 12 minutes to Ponce but very isolated. I paid 79.000. There is another 9 acres that was once part of this farm and it is available for me to obtain possibly for back taxes and this leads to a spring and creek that leads to some beautiful waterfalls. Our farm is one mile from a major highway that takes one to San Juan, the North Coast. Mayaguez with the maximum of one signal light.  This seems like a very good price based on what land is selling in other parts of the Island. It was a coffee farm since Spanish times but it stopped producing coffee about 30 years ago with no market. I do not think prices have risen since I bought it 12 years ago but I have not researched it much.

Sounds wonderful! Maunabo is just down the road from me. I have a friend whose husband grew up there.   
There are many people I know that moved here because their spouse was originally from Puerto Rico.  They bring with them their experiences of living in the States (or in another country).
In my fairly brief time of living here, I have witnessed Puerto Rico evolving. English is much more common.  The doctors are abandoning the old 'cattle call' method and you can make appointments.  Cell phones have vastly improved communication.   
Come. Please let me know when you are 'on island' and we can visit.
Here is a suggestion. My cousin is thinking of doing this.  If  you are going to ship stuff, purchase a shipping container.  Arrange for the shipping container to be delivered to your land.  Once it is empty, you can convert the container into a living space.  If you search on internet you will find examples.  You can even turn it into a swimming pool.

Once your house is build, walk around the terrain and take your daughter with you, use your vision to see it layout with some huts or small houses that are in tune with nature and the right type of trees. Explore the land, there are 13 acres so likely some hidden treasures in the ecology of the area.

Locals can show you places to go, rivers, ponds and hidden beaches where you can take your guests. Build your publicity around the nature and trails and places to go and stay tune to nature. Your place will be full of guests in a couple of years when the word gets out. Continue to fine tune the place each year.

One idea, since you have a hill, consider creating a creek by pumping water uphill and letting it come down the hill over rocks with a small pond at the bottom. Use guppies to eat mosquito larva at the pond. Nice attraction if you build a bridge across the artificial creek. The sound of Water running over the stones will enhance sleep. Hide or burry the tubes that carry water uphill.

Also consider running property with renewal energy like solar panels or windmill, more is better than less. You have the space.

Frogrock,

I am looking for a container to rent or purchase.  Where can I get one and how much do they cost? 

Can a container be resold in PR after you are finished with it?

Thank you all for your advise. We are very excited to explore the possibilities that this property provides.

I have 26 200 watt solar panels I was planning to use on our ranch. I plan on bringing them to PR to use for our project. Combined with the latest battery technology from Tesla, I plan to supply much of our power needs with these.

As far as the container idea goes...sounds good but I don't think anything longer than 20' would be easy to make the turns up the hill to the property. I'll have to investigate that further.

I almost forgot...a couple of things I didn't put in my original post.

If you are married, your spouse needs to be at closing to sign the deed. My wife Katie flew out the last week to see the property and be at the closing.

The sellers had no problem accepting our Wells Fargo cashiers check for the balance due at closing.

We need a cashiers check to file the deed after closing with the "Secretario de hacienda". The PR "Secretario de hacienda" required a cashiers check from a local bank.

Getting a cashiers check in PR is a bit more difficult. We needed to open a bank account at Banco Popular before they would allow us to buy a cashiers check.

This is awesome news and it all happened so quickly!  So excited for you and I'm looking forward to you and Rey when you get to the point of building.  Yeah!!

Sitka wrote:

Frogrock,

I am looking for a container to rent or purchase.  Where can I get one and how much do they cost? 

Can a container be resold in PR after you are finished with it?

I presume she is referring to a conex.  They are pretty readily available in the states, often on craigslist.  Do a Google search for "conex for sale" and you should find plenty.

I'd imagine you would find a market for them in PR.  They make great single-car garages.

I assume if you have quite a bit to transfer it may be worth it. I won't have that much, maybe a room worth at most. We been throwing a bit and giving my Daughter stuff. The furniture I currently have will go into the trash when it is time to leave. 1 Tv, computers, monitors, clothes,, some wall hangings, pictures and just a few things from the kitchen

bkettren wrote:

Thank you all for your advise. We are very excited to explore the possibilities that this property provides.

I have 26 200 watt solar panels I was planning to use on our ranch. I plan on bringing them to PR to use for our project. Combined with the latest battery technology from Tesla, I plan to supply much of our power needs with these.

As far as the container idea goes...sounds good but I don't think anything longer than 20' would be easy to make the turns up the hill to the property. I'll have to investigate that further.

That's quite the Solar system!
I'm certain, since you bought it you've done an energy management analysis for your ranch.
Curious if you've done one for PR?

For those that don't know what I'm speaking of, it's basically looking at your current use of electricity in Kilo-watt hrs and how you use them. Then looking at what your gains are and when.
Then looking at what the possibility of solar gain is compared to what you need and when.

I have 3 friends 'off-grid'. One in the China Sea (very envious cause he's living on his boat with his family), One in Indo-China (if you saw the lines to his house, you'd know why), the other in the US (one of my greatest sources of info).
From each I hear clothes washing is there biggest draw. They do it during the peak hrs of production (as the batteries are full and your blowing off energy, use it).
My friend in the China Sea adds air-conditioning into the mix. He devised a small unit to cool 2 rooms only as a haven to hang in. He's a bit more like I.. I'd like a cool haven to run to!

How you manage usage is as important as to what size array you buy.

Back to BK... I'm not at that point to do a usage management analysis or possible Solar gain yet. I'm still working on if Wifey (or I for that matter) wish to move there.
So, if you have, or plan to, would love to hear what you learn, plan on, or find.

For 'us', the upcoming trip is going to be fun and very informative.

Puerto Rico permits net metering, meaning that your excess production turns your meter backwards, so there's no need for such calculations.  Solar power is a pretty complicated issue, and perhaps deserves it's own thread?

If we have people in the know that can educate the members, by all means, knock yourself out!

WarnerW wrote:

Puerto Rico permits net metering, meaning that your excess production turns your meter backwards, so there's no need for such calculations.  Solar power is a pretty complicated issue, and perhaps deserves it's own thread?

Very good to hear PR has Net Metering!

I do believe you mis-understand what the analysis is meant for.

The size of the system needs to be according to you usage. No need to buy and set up a huge system if your needs are small. Then the site and area needs to be investigated as to how many hrs/days you will gain.
A 1 kilowatt system may be what one needs, but a 10 kilowatt system may be what another needs.

Best example I can put out there is my old woodstove.
It was an awesome Fisher stove that blasted heat (and ate wood to do it, big time). I couldn't run it efficiently because of how strong it was. It did not match my need.
My new stove is a 1/3rd of it's capability, uses 1/4 of the wood I used to and runs as it was built to.
I have a warm home.

Analyzing the need requirement, what the site has the possibly of doing and sizing accordingly, will save you money in the long run. Under-size and you may be upset on your investment.

What BK has for a system, he may find that 80% of his panels should face one way and 20% should face another. Solar Panels have a small degree area of best production. That's way you see 'Trackers' with panels mounted.
I have 2 230watt panels the power my garage and have meters on them to see what they're doing. This is part of my analysis of if I go further. A small battery bank (lead acid, which will shortly be changed to Li-ion's 18650's like the Telsa Bank) to see just what and how long it all lasts.

Net Metering is a great addition to learn about PR. Yet please, if considering any type of alternative source of power, do an analysis first.

I consider you 'all' friends. Hope to call you neighbors in the near future.
With that I only wish to assist my soon to be (hopefully) neighbors.

No, I certainly understand sizing the system to meet demand, and you are absolutely right that you want your system to closely match your needs.  My point was that your examples of off-grid systems would apply only if one wanted to be entirely off-grid.  Because PR permits net-metering, an "off-grid" system would be a matter of personal choice, not necessity.

For those unfamiliar with the terms, "off-grid" means largely that -- you produce all of the electricity that you can use.  There is no connection to a utility (aka "the grid").  Some might want such a system in order to be completely energy independent.  Others may find they need such a system because they lack access to the grid.  In any event, electricity is produced during certain times of the day (daylight hours for solar) and the excess is stored in batteries and released at night (or when the wind isn't blowing for wind systems).  As a result, you will want to use the most electricity at times of peak generation, to maximize the efficiency of your system.

What PR provides is "net-metering" which is an "on-grid" system.  Here, excess electricity generation is dumped onto the grid, turning your electric meter backwards.  At night, the grid provides power for you, and the meter spins normally.  The only problem with this system is if the grid goes down (power goes out), you have no electricity even when the sun is shining.  The solution to this is to generate power, store it in a battery, and then connect the solar/battery system to the grid.  Or to think of it another way, your "on-grid" system is prepared to become an "off-grid" system when the PREPA power goes out.  The problem with such a solution is that you lose efficiency converting from AC to DC, storing in a battery, then converting DC battery power back to AC to run your house.

I've done a good bit of wiring, but I'm not a licensed electrician.  My basic point is that there are multiple options for wind and solar power generation, and you should consider all of them, and consult expert opinion to find that system that best suits your wants and needs.

I took a few minutes this morning and jumped on the Nrel.gov to get some stat's on PR.
I knew I would be doing this before I went down there, so what the heck, I have a few minutes..

PR is amongst the best in the World for Solar production. Was very impressed! Has much to do with location and consistent temperature with in the prime operating parameters.
Compared to my location in the Nor' East.. PR's worst day is what I could only hope for to be my best!

Wind surprised me.. Rated very low..
I even checked it over water and still low..

Do realize even Nrel's data are averages, not site specific.

It looks like BK's system is going to 'rock' down there!

bkettren wrote:

I'll try to answer the questions;

We paid $75,000. The property is at 500 feet elevation. About 2 acres of it is flat and ready to build, and the rest of it is hillside. We paid cash.

I drove completely around the island to find an area that "called to me". I found the property listed in Clasificadosonline (not spelled correctly most likely).

The road 3 through Pattillas to Maunabo reminded me of my youth. I grew up in southern California and spent time on the coast from Ventura to Pacific Grove after high school working as a carpenter. I love when the mountains meet the ocean. You get a great ocean view and are still very close to the water without danger of flooding.

I traveled to PR thinking I could "wing it" on motels. I booked the first night in San Juan at the Dreams Hotel (great staff, relatively cheap $70, but not the best location). I realized quickly that there are no roadside motels like on the mainland and my wife used AirBNB to find places for me to stay the rest of my trip. Since it was last minute, most places only had availability for one or two nights in a row, so I moved around a lot.

I rented from Avis through Travelocity a economy car and paid about $600 total for the 3 weeks plus the tolls from toll roads that got added on. Fuel was between $.66 and $.70 a litre.

I wanted to close the deal before I left, so I went into Banco Popular and asked if they had lawyers they worked with. They were nice a gave me a list of lawyers. I was in Ponce at the time, so I chose Nelsa Lopez, an lawyer in Ponce. She was great.

I just booked at the same place for the first night. Thank you for the report!
The other I was at had a 'shared bathroom' which I really didn't care for.
I also thought they'd have 'roadside' motels..

bkettren wrote:

Thank you all for your advise. We are very excited to explore the possibilities that this property provides.

I have 26 200 watt solar panels I was planning to use on our ranch. I plan on bringing them to PR to use for our project. Combined with the latest battery technology from Tesla, I plan to supply much of our power needs with these.

As far as the container idea goes...sounds good but I don't think anything longer than 20' would be easy to make the turns up the hill to the property. I'll have to investigate that further.

Just me, what's the brand of your panels? Looking for the efficiency rating if you know it..
PR has a potential of 3.5 to 6.8 kWhr/m2/daily. That's a stationary (non-tracker) 15 degree tilt mount.
Very good rating! Some of the best!

That's potential mind you.. Would like to know your panel..
Please understand, just trying to figure your potential gain.

The solar panels are Grape Solar GS-S-195fab3. The spec sheet says aprox. 18% efficiency. I bought them about 6 years ago as a pallet load from Costco for $7,500.

I was planning on using on the ranch, but since we had power to the property already, I just used four of them to set up a backup 1000W system to run the fridge and freezer in case of a long term power outage.

How does one figure out how many panels are needed to reach a particular KWH a month number given the amount of sun typical in Puerto Rico?

For an example lets say one uses 700KWH a month according to the electric company, how many panels that would be?
I ask because that also requires a certain amount of surface to mount it.

It is a bit complex, but here is a rough example.

A 200w panel buts out 200watts in one hour at peak efficiency (it is really less than that). If a location gets 5 hours of sun a day, that one panel would produce 1KWH. At 30 days in a month, it would produce 30KWH. So it would take about 24 200 watt panels to make 700KWH a month.

NOTE, I said rough example. A 200watt panel DOES NOT put out 200 Watts. That varies greatly depending on many factors.

Also, the panels only put out power when the sun is shining. So batteries are used to store the excess energy produced in the daytime, and provide energy at night.

All of the components have less than 100% efficiency. It would take a large and expensive system to replace the power companies 700KWH a month.

Cloudy days affect the output but UV in PR is higher than in the states. For example today it is cloudy but UV is around 7 today. What if any effect does UV has on electric production?

To the first question Rey;
PR Has a Solar radiation factor 3.8 (lowest) to 6.5 (highest). This is expressed as kWh/m2/day. kilo watt hr / per square meter / daily.

BK's 200w panels are aprox. 31" x 60" = 1.2 square meters.
His panel is rated at 18%
So at lowest point 1 of his panels has the potential of; 3.8 x 1.2 x .18 (18%)
.82 kilowatts in a day
.82 x 20 (his count of panels) = 16.4 kilowatts.
16.34 x 30 = 492 kilowatts monthly.

Same math can be used to show highest possible.

As BK states, panels don't typically do as stated. They are mostly tested in a Lab under controlled conditions.

The best way to look at things is as an average, 3.8 + 6.5 / 2 = 5.15 average and use that number.
BK's average production goes to 667 kilowatts monthly (pretty close to your goal Rey)

Disclaimer: These are potential numbers used as a guide to understand. Solar Radiation numbers are taken from NREL.gov, they're a very good site for data. Also there are efficiency factors in both wiring and electronics' to be considered.

P.S. I almost forgot to add.. These numbers are based on a 'stationary' mount with 15 degree tilt.

To the second question; Yes.

Several companies and independent designers are testing coating that allow panels to work fairly well on cloudy days.
One I believe is an iron based coating, but still haven't heard enough feedback to say it's worth the extra costs.

A friend in the Alternative Energy Forum I have belong to for years is also working with filters to define which light waves are most effective and how to combine/use in a simple fashion.

The numbers I showed above from NREL as based upon daily/weekly/monthly/yearly data. It takes it count the cloudy days.

Quote:All of the components have less than 100% efficiency. It would take a large and expensive system to replace the power companies 700KWH a month.

Actually, yours comes real close!
Like I said before.. That system is going to ROCK down there!