Colombia or Ecuador?

Thank you OsageArcher.  (Is your name Archer?  I am James Archer)

K1VisaKing wrote:

cccmedia: Regarding those $20,000 condos, do you have an idea what is the average cost for the monthly condo dues?  Does that cover property taxes?... That seems like a great deal.  I can hardly buy a car in the USA for $20,000.

These deals are so amazing that I had to post about them .. even though I have previously not recommended buying property in South America.  I still don't like pre-construction in S.A. as I bear the scars of a long-delayed condo project I bought into in 2005.  I finally got to move in in 2013.

Although I don't have condo dues and property tax figures on these 20K condos, I doubt they would be a deal-breaker.

On my Quito condo, the monthly dues has been $29 for years and the property tax works out to about three dollars a month.  Yes, I said three dollars a month.

cccmedia in La Zona Cafetera, Colombia

K1 asked about other costs beyond those mentioned earlier on this thread.

I don't have dollar or peso figures, but based on my personal experience .. the answer is that extra costs can include ....

Closing costs including attorney fees, furnishing of the unit including appliances, homeowners insurance if you decide to buy that (many don't). basic utilities, phone/cable-or-satellite/Internet package and parking (if you own a car that you want to park onsite).

cccmedia in La Zona

cccmedia, thanks for the reply.  I have another question.  I may have missed the answer above.  Are these $20,000 condos in Pereira only available at that price before they are built?  How much more would the prices be if they already exist?

cccmedia wrote:

OsageArcher wrote:

My impression of Ecuador vs. Colombia is that Ecuador is less developed ... and the cost of living is higher than in Colombia.

Huh?!

Cost of living higher in Ecuador?

Is that a typo?

cccmedia from La Zona Cafetera, Colombia

There is a slideshow today on MSN of the 50 cheapest countries for expats:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realesta … ;ocid=iehp

Colombia and Peru are on the list.  Ecuador is not on the list.

K1VisaKing wrote:

cccmedia, thanks for the reply.  I have another question.  I may have missed the answer above.  Are these $20,000 condos in Pereira only available at that price before they are built?  How much more would the prices be if they already exist?

This is something you would have to research.  The status of these projects -- meaning existing or pre-construction -- is not clear in the magazine.

Contact Finca Raiz, which offered most of the projects I mentioned, to inquire as to the status of individual projects.  In cases where the project is not finished, you might ask when units will be ready for occupancy.

cccmedia in La Zona

I looked at the slide show, no way would I live in most of those places.  Aside from safety issues, the article fails to give the residency rates and income tax policies and rates. That's why ecuador stands out, I think, to be so popular.  The cost of living for me has increased since I've been here, in food and supplies, but with a $25k investment for residency, it's hard to beat.  I've looked at Columbia, and didn't even know about the income tax effect until I recently read about it on this site.  I've also looked at Belize, but at this point I have adjusted to my life in this developing country so why trade it for another.  If I ever left here, as of today, I would only move to Panama before giving up and returning to he US.

So it sounds like you prefer Equador over Columbia.

Sophems wrote:

with a $25k investment for residency, (Ecuador) is hard to beat.  I've looked at Columbia, and didn't even know about the income tax effect until I recently read about it on this site.  I've also looked at Belize, but at this point I have adjusted to my life in this developing country so why trade it for another.  If I ever left here, as of today, I would only move to Panama before giving up and returning to he US.

As Sophems knows, I applaud her for putting in a climatized swimming pool and, soon, an outdoor pizza oven in her place in coastal Ecuador.  It's evident from her recent posts that she's not moving to Colombia any time soon, so this post is not for her -- but rather for other readers who may want a reasonably inexpensive way to qualify for residency in Colombia.

In recent years, First American Realty Medellin aka FAR has put together some deals in the Paisa capital through which Expats can qualify for residency in Colombia for an investment currently valued at under $25,000 US. 

The first two projects are Poblado Suites and Casa Provenza.  They feature(d) partial ownership in short-term rental lodging used by third parties when visiting Medellin.  The visa-seekers buy shares in the project which gets them partial ownership in a Colombia company, thereby qualifying for a visa.

These projects were specifically designed to attract Expats seeking a visa-eligible investment.

Shares in the existing projects come back on the market from time to time.  Contact FAR if you want to learn whether shares are currently available or may be available shortly.

cccmedia in La Zona Cafetera

As far as other visa pathways in Colombia --

1.  Pensioner visa:  the Social Security (or similar) monthly income necessary for a visa made its annual adjustment last month, January 2017.  Based on the floating exchange rate, the new minimum is roughly $760 a month at this time.

2.  The Rentista or Annuity visa minimum is much higher.  This is for private-income recipients.  A monthly minimum that now approaches $4,000 US is necessary.

cccmedia in La Zona

cccmedia, last time I checked it was $100k "market" value investment.  Did that change with just these properties?  Sounds like a "timeshare" arrangement to me and as having done audits for time shares, condos and HOA's and accounting for real estate management companies in Florida, I would never buy a "time share", except for Disney Vacation Club, in the US, much less a SA country.  Too many things are beyond your control in the US, I can't imagine the nightmare it could be in another country, if in fact that's what it's like.  At least in Florida, you can walk away let your ownership be foreclosed on, and it doesn't affect your credit.  Can't imagine the ramifications of Columbia if it went south due to a natural disaster, fraudulent event or embezzlement, if the reach went beyond the border.  I would be hesitant to invest in any "share" type investment in the US, with SEC involvement much less where govt's are so corrupt.  Just my opinion.

No, this 25K investment for a Colombia visa is not for a timeshare.

The investment-level is low because that's all that is required if you invest (for a visa) in a Colombia company.

Previously, few Gringos would consider investing in a Colombia company because of the language barrier and the perceived difficulty in understanding such an investment.

In this case, a Colombia company, FAR -- which is operated by native English speakers --- put together share-investments in rental/lodging buildings in order to qualify at roughly the minimum level for a residency visa.

One way to understand how this is not a time share is the following....

You would not be investing in order to receive one or more weeks' annual lodging for yourself or your family. 

You would own a percentage of the property -- perhaps under five percent -- along with other investors who cover the remaining 95 percent.

The investment newsletter Overseas Property Alert reviewed this investment in detail...
http://www.overseaspropertyalert.com/ge … nvestment/

cccmedia in La Zona

Interesting concept, and maybe something to look at.  Being an accountant, I would love to see financials and have an option to ask questions.  Maybe not a bad investment, but if you choose to not be a resident, I would wonder what the income tax implications would be as a non-resident but as an investor in a corporation  and if your "world wide" income would come into play whether you stay the 183 days or not.  If you do have to file taxes, the cost of having that done and potential tax liability on world wide income would decrease the return on investment, and potentially turn into a mess.

I did some research on the US and Columbia tax thing and both countries do have a reciprocity agreement for reporting earnings in each country to each other, whether you agree to it or not.  Not sure exactly how it works, but I don't think I would want to open that door into information sharing.  Not to mention since FACTA, there will now be a world wide type of FACTA coming to fruition within the next couple of years.  Countries like Singapore, who initially refused to participate in FACTA, have no given in.  Not many places left for off shore investing anymore.

You know you're overthinking things when you start worrying about the effect that Singapore's future participation in FATCA might some day have on your theoretical worldwide tax liability in a South American country where you're not planning to be a tax resident.

I recommend an early-morning swim in a climatized pool.

cccmedia in La Zona

Actually I was just contemplating that!! 😊  I just brought up Singapore as I was doing some research lately into international accounting and was in a chat conversation with a Canadian business friend that I met and who lives here, when he told me he had moved money to a Singapore bank account because they didn't report their info to any govt's.  I have recently applied for some jobs in Malta and was looking up economies and world bank crisis' and gold prices and storage, when I happened upon their govt website and how this year they are implementing cooperation policies.  I sent my friend the link as he opened and funded his bank account there with another of his US friends, and he had no idea of the cooperation and newly adopted banking laws. (Apparently they opened up the accounts because they didn't cooperate with reporting to North America)  I know really interesting stuff right?  A dip in the pool is way more fun, lol.  😂

I sent my brother the list I posted yesterday and he replied with this list from International Living posted on Forbes.  This list considers a variety of factors in addition to cost of living, which was the sole criteria of the earlier list.  It's heavily slanted towards Latin America (and Spain/Portugal) and leaves out most of the Muslim world with the top 5 being:

5 - Colombia
4 - Costa Rica
3 - Ecuador
2 - Panama
1 - Mexico

Maybe Mexico is improving, but I'm not a believer, yet.  Safety is still my concern there.  Mexico today seems like Colombia of the 90s.  And if Donald Trump upsets them enough they may enact some anti-Gringo laws to scare away expats further.

I forgot to post the link:

http://www3.forbes.com/business/interna … in-2017/1/

Sophems wrote:

Actually I was just contemplating that!! 😊  I just brought up Singapore as I was doing some research lately into international accounting and was in a chat conversation with a Canadian business friend that I met and who lives here, when he told me he had moved money to a Singapore bank account because they didn't report their info to any govt's.

Singapore Agrees in Substance to FATCA IGA
https://www.globaltaxenforcement.com/fa … fatca-iga/

Singapore Signs IGA on FATCA with the United States
http://www.aseanbriefing.com/news/2015/ … tates.html

Panama is probably the most expensive country in Latin America, if not it has to be one of the more expensive places to live in Latin America.

I dont agree. Chile most expensive...from what ive heard. Havent been there so cant speak from experience. I retired in colombia a year ago and i love it!!

Why do you think Panama is the most expensive?  I have looked at new homes on the ocean in or near Colorado area, just past Punta Chameand an hour outside of Panama City, and the prices aren't bad. I like that area, my friends have a home in Punta Chame. Plus you can get almost everything you are used to in the States, especially groceries, toiletries and so on.  Plus one of their malls has a Hermes store in it, so you know it's way more upscale than ecuador or Columbia.  Botox and dermatology services are cheaper than the US also.   I thought the prices for food were comparable to the US.  It would be more expensive cause you buy what we are used to, but the prices are way less than the American products here.  Last time I was there Diet Coke in the 12 pack of cans was cheaper than the coca light was.  And I hate the coca light here and I can never find it in the cans in manta. 

I will say that the cops in Panama are 100 times more corrupt than here.  They pulled us over on my way to the airport, my friends son was driving.  The said because it was Christmas they would let us go if we paid them $300 in cash, because he had to split it with his supervisor, or the alternative was to sit and wait until a supervisor came out and I would miss my flight.  We told him we didn't have that much cash and he said $200 was the final offer.  I had $83 in a US bank envelope and that was all the cash we had.  We gave the $80 to him in the bank envelope, as I needed the $3 for a cart at the airport until I could find an ATM, and told him that was everything we had and he could search us if he didn't believe us.  He said he had to ask his supervisor.  He made us wait another 10 minutes, acted like he was making phone calls and then sent us on our way, no ticket or anything.  I have seen many times how the cops are there and do nothing for free.  So that's part of the reason I don't really want to move there, plus traffic is a nightmare.  Just my experience and thoughts.

Oh and if you fly to Panama, by copa, to shop, be careful on luggage and weight limits.  They don't consider it an international flight and Copa will try to shake you down, it's considered domestic and there are no custom declaration forms to fill out ( at least it was like that 2 years ago). They told us that on our way back and tried to charge us over $500 for being over weight & having an extra bag.  We said bad words and told them to give us our bags back we would just stay.  They finally dropped it to $300 and let us go but it took them 2 hours to do that.  Why, I have no idea.

You are probably right.

Actually I said probably - Panama City is not a cheap place to live. It's more expensive than Rio.

How can air conditioning advocate Sophems post that extensively about Panama .. without mentioning that the whole country is a sauna, except for Expats who avoid the schvitzing by escaping to the highest hill they can find in Chiriquí province....

cccmedia in La Zona Cafetera, Colombia

Count your blessings, Ray.

At least the rightwingers outside Medellin are shutting the f@@k up about The Donald.

Lawrence ODonnell tells the Truth About Trump, Mondays/through/Thursdays at 10 p.m. ET, on MSNBC The Last Word.  Free clips available at the Last Word website.

cccmedia in La Zona

I wasn't responding to AC, not sure what you are talking about I must have missed something.  Either I'm having a blonde moment or wasn't paying attention.  I was posting, reading and watching The Walking Dead all at the same time.  I don't multi task as well as I used to.  I was responding to Panama being the most expensive Latin America country to live in.  I haven't been there, except connecting through the airport, in 2 years, but my friend rented one of the penthouses of a high rise right across from the canal and the park that's on the canal.  If he paid cash up front for the year of his lease he got a huge discounted rate, which I thought was a real bargain, especially in the part of the city he lived in.  And I have to have AC, I can't live without it.  I almost die here when I get in a cab on a hot day and they only have the drivers window open and the handles are broken to roll mine down.  I've actually turned down cans if they have no AC.  The heat and humidity gives me migraines here.  But yes Panama is very hot and humid especially during rainy season.

What is Trump saying about Columbia that could affect expats there?  I just haven't seen or heard anything only the Mexico stuff.  If I was an expat living in Mexico I would be getting all my assets and self out of that country now and fast.  I think it has the potential to turn very ugly for all of them there.

Sophems wrote:

I have to have AC, I can't live without it.  I almost die here (Manta, Ecuador) when I get in a cab on a hot day and they only have the drivers window open... The heat and humidity gives me migraines here.  But yes Panama is very hot and humid especially during rainy season.

Five Step Plan to Turn Things Around For Sophems

1.  Do not invest in that outdoor pizza oven.  Your shelf life on the Ecuador coast is shorter than I thought.

2.  Forget Panama.  Do not even think about it.

3.  Your interest in Malta... Keep in mind that July/August average high temperatures there are 89 degrees Fahrenheit, meaning that many summer days it is in the 90s.

4.  Sell .. pack your bag .. say goodbye to the suffering.

5.   Move to Manizales or Quindío, Colombia.  Probably the latter .. as Manizales in infamously hilly.

cccmedia in La Zona Cafetera

CCC...yep. glass half full. ☺

Sophems i dont know what trumps saying about columbia. I live in colombia. But the locals here have enough sense to know its not just mexicans hes scapegoating; it's latinos. And once scapegoaters get done with one they look for another. My $0.02 anyway.

Oh that's funny.  Unless my house falls down, I don't think I'm going anywhere anytime soon.  I prefer the heat over cold.  I don't do well in the cold.  I was raised in the hot humid south, but my family had rough times when I was young and couldn't afford to run the AC until I was in high school.  I'm fine as long as I have AC or fans.  I can usually make it all day here now until it gets humid before I turn on the AC.  It's getting really hot and humid here now.  Quito is more my style of life, but it's too cold there for me and my stays there have been brief and the altitude gets to me.

Trust me if I could sell and return to Florida I would go tomorrow, but living here is my husbands dream and this is my compromise.  I told him that I would move here if my lifestyle didn't change too much, and he agreed.  Four years later my lifestyle doesn't even come close to what I thought it would be, but I've accepted it for what it is and just make the best of it.  But it took me a couple of years to get to that place. My biggest problem i deal with is being a female here and always having to worry about safety, not being able to get in my car and go where I want or do what I want.  I think it's tougher living here for females than it is males.  Plus I'm a very trusting person and I feel like I can trust very few people here, including the gringo population.   My dream life was never to be a stay at home person, cleaning house cooking and washing dishes.  I get quite bored sometimes here. But I can't complain about my life many would choose it over their current one anyday.   I just wish they had casinos here.  That's my therapy, I used to go to Tampa about once a month. I would take the bus and go by myself to just decompress from stress.  The only decent place I have found to board my dogs is with my vet but they always come home infested with ticks, even though I treat them monthly with drops and flea and Rick spray.  So I feel guilty to travel much and leave them like that.  I used to have a great place in Florida I would boar them at. It was a house they converted into kennel, and it was leash free on a big property.  They had their own bedroom with cots and their own outside door where they had a run.  My dogs don't think they are dogs and don't socialize well with other dogs. They love people and love most of the Ecuadorian men that they meet.  If I thought I could make a return on my investment I would open a doggie hotel here, I found the lot I want but can't justify the cost and can't afford to throw the money away.  I recently found online a kennel in Quito and GYE that I need to go check out that I may start using so I can do more things here.  My one dog suffers from IBD, and I can't get her treated here, because the drugs are risky and she would have to be monitored very closely. I was taking her to a specialist in Orlando when we moved here, and she was being weened off her treatment when we moved.  Once we got here and I finished her treatment all her fur fell out, but now I've learned to manage it and this new home made food program and supplements seems to be helping but I'm only 2 weeks in. My vet her wanted to do a treatment but I know enough about it that if her blood work isn't monitored weekly she could die from it and I don't trust them enough here for that.  I can't even get them to run all the normal blood test I'm used to them running.

If you can find a way to leave the dogs temporarily, the nearest casinos are in Ipiales, Colombia, near the EC-COL border.

I won 60 dollars US while playing for an hour at the Tango casino blackjack table in December on my way up to Colombia from Quito.

Most of the other casinos in Ipiales offer slots only.

I think you would find the ambience much quieter at Tango than at Hard Rock Casinos.

Buses from Manta to Tulcán are cheap.  Then take a taxi or colectivo across the border.

As the crow flies, the border towns are about 150 miles north of Manta.


2018 update:  The blackjack casino in Ipiales, Colombia, is Ventura Casino at the Gran Plaza mall on Carrera 7.  Two blackjack tables are typically open, with minimums of 5,000 pesos ($1.67 US) at one table and 20,000 pesos per bet at the other table ($6.67 US).

-----

Ecuador gets a new president in a couple of months.  Maybe the new guy will figure out that closing the EC casinos five years ago was less than brilliant -- it cost tens of thousands of jobs in the casino industry and related industries, according to critics of the closures.  Maybe casinos will reopen in Ecuador in tourism districts with casino-closer-in-chief Correa out of the picture.


2018 update:  The new president of Ecuador has launched a referendum drive, by which the electorate will decide various political issues in a few weeks.  Casino gaming is not on the planned ballots (as it was on the 2011 referendum, which ended up closing the casinos of Ecuador). 

cccmedia in La Zona

Thanks for the info, I'm not confident enough to play table games and especially since my Spanish just gets me by, but I would flounder at a casino.  We have an investment maturing next year and we're thinking about hitting Vegas, I haven't been there in 10 years and I know it's changed.  My husband wants to play the tables.  I find my peace at the slots, lol.  I only take what I'm willing to lose cause let's face it that's what happens most of the time.  I went to the hard rock in Miami in December and lost my ass.  I flew into Ft. Lauderdale on jet blue for the first and last time.  I was ready to head to Miami at 9 am and my hotel had no rooms in Miami available for early check in. The hard rock was 15 minutes from the airport so of course that's where I went .  I lost $300 in 30 minutes and now those asses won't let you use your points on your card for the food court anymore.  No wonder they are filthy rich.  So maybe I can go there and my friend can stay at my house and watch my dogs.  Is it relatively safe to take the bus there from manta?  I've heard bad stories but don't know anyone personally who has had a bad experience.

Bus from Manta to the COL border:  you should be fine if you travel during daylight hours.

cccmedia

Hi! But do you live there full time, and thus, pay double taxation on all your assets? This is the subject that worries me about relocation to Colombia. I am also considering Panama and Ecuador. Any thoughts?

atreyes5 wrote:

do you live (in Colombia) full time, and thus, pay double taxation on all your assets? This is the subject that worries me about relocation to Colombia.

The first billion Colombian pesos' worth of worldwide assets has historically been exempted from the COL assets tax for those years in which the Colombia assets tax has been in effect.

One billion COP is about $333,000 U.S.

There is no double-taxation for USA passport-holders in Colombia on income taxes.  Paid USA income taxes are fully deductible on Colombia tax returns.

As for Colombia vs. Ecuador, please visit the excellent https://www.expat.com thread started by VIP member Nards Barley on the Ecuador forum:

"Ask the Expert Whether He Prefers Ecuador or Colombia"

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.p … =3#3672868

  -- cccmedia in Medellín

atreyes5 wrote:

relocation to Colombia. I am also considering Panama....

Weather-wise, there is only one place in Panama that is Expat-friendly:  the mountain town of Boquete in Chiriquí province, "up the hill" from sweaty David, Panama.

If you love hot, humid weather, Panama City or most anywhere in that country could suit you.

If you want a more moderate climate and don't mind that a quarter of the local population of your town consists of Gringos, Boquete (boh-KET-ay) might be ideal.  Recent Internet posts indicate that Gringo volunteers in Boquete have mostly eliminated the feral-dog problem that plagues many places in Panama .. through spaying and neutering free-ranging dogs.

Boquete's elevation is 3,900 feet (Wikipedia) and it's population was 19,000 in 2008 -- probably a few thousand more by now due to how popular it is with Expats.

cccmedia in Medellín, Colombia

cccmedia

I hear that Colombia taxes Social Security income.  Do you know if that's true?  To me that's double taxation because I already paid taxes on that years past when I earned the money that the US government took out of my paycheck.  I know the US government double-taxes part of Social Security benefits if your income is high enough, but that can't be avoided.  I can avoid Colombia's double-tax by not spending 180 days in Colombia.

cccmedia wrote:

There is no double-taxation for USA passport-holders in Colombia on income taxes.  Paid USA income taxes are fully deductible on Colombia tax returns.

A clarification is in order here.  The marginal income tax rates are higher in Colombia, beginning at lesser amounts of income.  You are considered a resident of Colombia for tax purposes if you spend 183 days or more total there in any 365 day period.  It's likely that many who receive Social Security would not pay any income taxes in the US but would have a tax liability in Colombia.

For instance the 19% tax rate in Colombia begins at about $1200 USD/month - that's $14,400 USD/year at which income you'll not normally pay ANY income tax in the US so "fully deductible" in Colombia is moot.

The 28% tax rate in Colombia begins at about $1450 USD/month - that's $17,400 USD/year.  Again, in the US you'll normally not pay any income taxes on this amount but in Colombia you will.  The 28% tax rate continues up to about $3200 USD/month or $38,400 USD/year and above that amount it jumps to 33%.

So someone whose income is, say, $20,000 USD/year will normally pay NO income tax in the US - but in Colombia they would be liable for about $1300.  Your income could be quite a bit higher than this in the US especially if you are married, and you would not have any US income tax liability - but you would in Colombia.  Up to about $30K USD/year you'd have little or no US income tax - but in Colombia on $30K USD you'd pay about $4000 USD in income taxes.  There would be no US income tax to deduct from what you'd owe in Colombia!

K1VisaKing wrote:

cccmedia

I hear that Colombia taxes Social Security income.  Do you know if that's true?  To me that's double taxation because I already paid taxes on that years past when I earned the money that the US.

This question cannot universally be answered 'yes' or 'no'.

As Brother Archer's latest post suggests, things get complicated in the Colombia taxation realm.

It's altogether possible that if you presented the above question to three accountants in Colombia, you might get three different interpretations of your tax liability based on your individual situation.

----

I like Poblado and Colombia enough that I have recently obtained a TP-7 visa allowing me to live in Colombia for one full year. 

I won't know until early 2018 what my TBD accountant will determine is my tax liability for 2017, my first year here. 

If the taxes are too much, I'll decide whether to spend 183-plus days in Colombia in 2018.  In theory, that strategy exposes me to only one tax year of income taxation in Colombia (tax year 2017) if I decide in early 2018 that tax residency in Colombia (183-plus days in country) is too expensive a proposition.

Brother Archer has previously posted that he prefers getting multiple tax opinions from Colombia tax professionals in advance.  In my case, having obtained one tax opinion, I feel confident enough that my taxes won't be excessive .. that I decided not to limit my days in La República during 2017.

cccmedia in Medellín