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Thanks, I was lucky, my husband's family always treated me like a family member, maybe at times a silly spoiled one but still.
My father's family is/was from Poland.Grew up dirt poor.
I always knew we were lucky to have a roof over our heads and a full stomach every night.
Even in good times I was always trying to always be grateful for the small things.
I try my hardest to be humble, sometimes the old green genie comes out in all of us.
I can't even remember how many times growing up in sunny Ca. that we had to eat everything on our plates because of the "poor people" in Europe, Africa and China who were going hungry.
Strict parents who grew up tough taught us to never feel better or more then others because one never knows when they will  find hard times and need a helping hand.
I have once again found yet another branch of our Polish family tree living in Gorlice.
We have been writing each other and getting to know each other.
They all grew up poor but all went to college and improved their lives under hard conditions.
If someone is not happy, it is up to them to change their lives, a bit of help is good but one must always rely on themselves first.
Moral lesson of the day... Sorry for getting on my soap box.
I am lucky my Polish family can speak ,read and write inn English.

I do often feel a bit lazy about speaking Hungarian, with a bit more effort I could of learned allot more then I know.
After all, my husband speaks perfect Hungarian and we have allot of free time.
It isn't easy however to learn from someone so close.
He expects me to learn fast and it hasn't happened.
My American cousins took some Polish lessons before we met for a family reunion in Poland. They went for about 6 months to class every week.
When we got to Poland, they couldn't really remember a thing and never used the little they learned.
At least they tried, both are older ladies.
Perhaps because I have some roots in Hungary as well as Poland I have a soft spot in my heart for the people.
I was privy to read some translated letters from my cousin in Gorlice.
She wrote these letters in the 1950's to her aunt in the US.
She is now 78-79 years old and has moved back to Poland after living for 20 years in the US.
I am writing her daughter mostly who is a decade younger then me.
She also moved back to Poland from the US with her mother and Polish/ Ruysn husband.
Interesting I think that they lived in the states and they all moved back home.
Guess there is no place like home for some people.
What i found very moving is this 78 year old cuz wrote in her old letters to her aunt all about them returning to their home in a village near Gorlice after the war.
The house was burnt to the ground and everything gone.
They camped out in the yard, cooked on a open fire. Rebuilt the house paid off brick by brick as in the old communist times one had to buy all building materials before hand. No bank credit or loans back then.
She was a teenager in those letters and humbly asked her aunt to please send her a used winter coat and any old dresses she had and to please mail a US $5. bill into the lining of the coat so she might be able to buy a few items that teen girls like.
She wanted to be a teacher.
I am so proud to be related to her, she became a teacher and taught in the US.
Just a little outside help and she did it on her own.
Her daughter and her husband own a construction company in Poland, guess they can build a house anytime they want now.

Chikagoan :

Please leave discussions of US foreign policy out of this. Globalism is not inevitable. Mass migrations are not unavoidable. Hungary can and will maintain its identity despite pressure from the EU and the left. Foreign residents not sympathetic to Hungarian sentiments should perhaps consider relocating to Schaerbeek or Molenbeek in Brussels. There they can enjoy the diversity lacking in Hungary.

Aw, come on, there may be plenty of people influenced by government propaganda but equally there are plenty of other free thinkers too.   

Plenty of people are not fans of the EU, but even they wouldn't  say there's conspiracy to subsume Hungarian identity. 

It's just natural to have movement and integration over time.

I really don't know the details but I do know many Hungarians and others from the V-4 nations have a sort of legit reason for resentments.
After WW11 they were left on their own to rebuild while western Europe received loans and probably even some freebies to rebuild. No one gave Hungary any money to rebuild.Whatever we see here was done by the hard work of the citizens who did without to give to their country.
My husband was born in 1947 and when he was 12 years old he and his friends used to play on the construction site of the Budapest bridges after hours.That's how long it took for the citizens of Hungary to even start fixing all the downed bridges.They played football among the ruins of a house, sometimes the whole block was gone.
The working class everyday people did  all the rebuilding  by themselves.
The Soviets wanted from Hungary plus the people were on their own to try and get their lives back to normal. The west didn't give them any money at all for damages.
Now with people wanting to move in and "take over" as many locals see it it really doesn't sit well with the people.
I understand their point of view. Ones parents, grandparents and they themselves paid high taxes, were asked to work free and extra long work days without pay to help rebuild the country.
My husbands family lived 5 people in a studio flat. They didn't ask for a larger place because the country had other things to deal with like fixing schools, hospitals and bridges.
Now many former things that had belonged to the people were sold for profit with the profit going into only a few hands.
What on earth did the past generation work for then? Just to give it all away and have nothing for their own children.
I can see how some people would be against immigration of people who want help without having done anything for the country and probably never will even break even with their future efforts.
heard they want to give migrant immigrants a large sum of money to start their new lives with, how is that even fair to the citizens who hardly can make it from paycheck to paycheck.
I believe Hungary was asked to give out in aid as much as wealthier countries to help new immigrants, more then most locals make in a year with hard work.That's what the EU is asking from poor Hungary.
The money is better spent on schools and hospitals then on free handouts to strangers.
I do not think that is right or even fair play. It will cause allot of trouble if that actually does happen.
Again, I am not privy to what is really going on, could all be smoke and mirrors to distract from other issues.
As a American living here I sometimes am embarrassed by other westerners when I see how they act in public,like they are better for some reason that only they know.
Acting loud in public, trying to draw attention to themselves as if they were something rare and special. No, actually it is a shame.
I sit in the large market sometimes while my husband shops. I hear and see how western people act , sort of rude really most times. Maybe they just don't see themselves. Like they own the place just because they are on a cheap holiday package tour. Sad .
I guess my personal loyalty is with the Hungarians more then ex-pats and for sure more then tourists.
Guess I did get political after all. Well the truth is the truth.

Marilyn Tassy :

I really don't know the details but I do know many Hungarians and others from the V-4 nations have a sort of legit reason for resentments.
After WW11 they were left on their own to rebuild while western Europe received loans and probably even some freebies to rebuild. No one gave Hungary any money to rebuild.Whatever we see here was done by the hard work of the citizens who did without to give to their country.....

The reasons are very well documented why Hungary was not involved. Indeed, the same situation occurred across the region, including in Poland etc.   But it's not the West's fault.  It's actually the Soviet's fault. 

The Communists refused to participate in the rebuilding programme post-WW2 (Marshall Plan).  They viewed it as an capitalist plot. 

And the rest is as they say, history.

Since the 1990s, Hungary has been supported by international donors and the recipient of many billions in aid.

To be honest, I really respect someone who did what you did, in moving to a new country, which although interesting and beautiful is certainly not Southern California. Also, Hungarian truly is a difficult language. You don't NEED to learn it if you can function without doing so. Anyways, you tried.
What disturbs me is the way some people just criticize ordinary Hungarians and their opinions without Knowing Hungarian, and with a sense of superiority, unwarranted IMO.

fluffy2560 :
Chikagoan :

Please leave discussions of US foreign policy out of this. Globalism is not inevitable. Mass migrations are not unavoidable. Hungary can and will maintain its identity despite pressure from the EU and the left. Foreign residents not sympathetic to Hungarian sentiments should perhaps consider relocating to Schaerbeek or Molenbeek in Brussels. There they can enjoy the diversity lacking in Hungary.

Aw, come on, there may be plenty of people influenced by government propaganda but equally there are plenty of other free thinkers too.   

Plenty of people are not fans of the EU, but even they wouldn't  say there's conspiracy to subsume Hungarian identity. 

It's just natural to have movement and integration over time.

Yes, I don't believe there is a conspiracy. I am rather mystified by the constant focus on Soros, although there is some underlying purpose no doubt to the propaganda.
That being said, the ostensible goal of the agitation is fine basically. That is to keep Hungary Hungarian. I say this as a Hungarian American and Hungarian citizen married to a non-European and non-white, who intends to spend a great deal of time in Hungary soon.
The banlieues of Paris inhabited by immigrants are frequently unpleasant and unsafe, as are some areas of Brussels and other Western European cities. Many of these immigrants are nice people and hard-working too, but some are not, particularly the youth. As is well known, certain areas of American cities are quite dangerous and unlivable too. I have personal experience with these places.
There is nothing wrong with the Visegrad countries trying to avoid these outcomes.
Walk around Brussels for example and tell me honestly if the area around Bruxelles-Midi is actually nice due to immigrantion.
I like diversity, but a diversity that adds to the country and place, rather than detracts from it.
If some Christian Arabs; Copts, Assyrians need shelter, fine.
If Chinese or Japanese want to open businesses in Budapest, that's OK too.
If some Brits or Germans want to relocate to Balaton, cool.
If some Koreans want to study music in Kecskemet, great.
All these kinds of immigrants bring skills and cash to Hungary, so they contribute to the populace.
Indigent hoards of male, illegal, North African economic migrants, for example, in general do not contribute, although I do love merguez!
Mass migration is not inevitable and is largely not beneficial.
If the Hungarian government is one of the few political entities that is bold enough to actually admit to this reality, then more power to it.

Chikagoan :

.....I like diversity, but a diversity that adds to the country and place, rather than detracts from it.

If some Christian Arabs; Copts, Assyrians need shelter, fine.
If Chinese or Japanese want to open businesses in Budapest, that's OK too.
If some Brits or Germans want to relocate to Balaton, cool.
If some Koreans want to study music in Kecskemet, great.
All these kinds of immigrants bring skills and cash to Hungary, so they contribute to the populace.
Indigent hoards of male, illegal, North African economic migrants, for example, in general do not contribute, although I do love merguez!
Mass migration is not inevitable and is largely not beneficial.
If the Hungarian government is one of the few political entities that is bold enough to actually admit to this reality, then more power to it.

It's never been the premise of these discussions in this forum that economic migrants would benefit from a free-for-all in Hungary to the detriment of Hungarian citizens.  To conflate economic migrants with refugees is at best disingenuous and at worst malicious.

However, there are multiple contentions that the Hungarian government is moving in the wrong direction or there are concerns about its actions, namely (off the top of my head, in no particular order, probably incomplete etc):

1) Not following their obligation to support refugees under the 1951 UN Convention.
2) Attempts to close CEU
3) Demonisation of Soros, foreigners and refugees in general
4) Non-acceptance of the EU refugee quotas
5) Closure of Népszabadság and various other media law issues.
6) Power station Paks II procurement procedure (transparency issues, now cleared by EU)
7) Relations with Russia - involvement in the economy is perceived as long term risky

Obviously some governments and institutions have concerns/interests - e.g. USA and EU etc.

fluffy2560 :
Chikagoan :

.....I like diversity, but a diversity that adds to the country and place, rather than detracts from it.

If some Christian Arabs; Copts, Assyrians need shelter, fine.
If Chinese or Japanese want to open businesses in Budapest, that's OK too.
If some Brits or Germans want to relocate to Balaton, cool.
If some Koreans want to study music in Kecskemet, great.
All these kinds of immigrants bring skills and cash to Hungary, so they contribute to the populace.
Indigent hoards of male, illegal, North African economic migrants, for example, in general do not contribute, although I do love merguez!
Mass migration is not inevitable and is largely not beneficial.
If the Hungarian government is one of the few political entities that is bold enough to actually admit to this reality, then more power to it.

It's never been the premise of these discussions in this forum that economic migrants would benefit from a free-for-all in Hungary to the detriment of Hungarian citizens.  To conflate economic migrants with refugees is at best disingenuous and at worst malicious.

However, there are multiple contentions that the Hungarian government is moving in the wrong direction or there are concerns about its actions, namely (off the top of my head, in no particular order, probably incomplete etc):

1) Not following their obligation to support refugees under the 1951 UN Convention.
2) Attempts to close CEU
3) Demonisation of Soros, foreigners and refugees in general
4) Non-acceptance of the EU refugee quotas
5) Closure of Népszabadság and various other media law issues.
6) Power station Paks II procurement procedure (transparency issues, now cleared by EU)
7) Relations with Russia - involvement in the economy is perceived as long term risky

Obviously some governments and institutions have concerns/interests - e.g. USA and EU etc.

The conflation is not so much what the Hungarian government is doing as much as what the European and global left are doing.
How did this all start?
Well in 2015 Angela Merkel took a selfie with a Syrian refugee. This started a mass overland migration through the Balkans, some leaving refugee camps in Turkey and some joining in the migration for economic reasons.
Did these migrants stop and register in Greece and follow the legitimate protocol for stopping in the first EU country and having their status determined?
Were they vetted and were their documents examined at the border?
Did any of them throw away their documents deliberately so as to disguise their intentions and place of origin ?
Were unaccompanied minors sent alone with the migration to take advantage of family reunification laws?
Why didn't most of them try to stay in Hungary or Greece or Croatia if safety and freedom were their goals? Did perhaps the much more generous welfare benefits of Germany and Sweden draw them further west?
Were there any terrorist incidents or crime involving so called refugees when they arrived in Germany or Sweden or France?
Have most of the migrants that have been determined to not be refugees been deported or even kept track of in Germany and elsewhere?
Let's be realistic.......
The current mass migration of sub-Saharan Africans through the Italian peninsula (I have witnessed it), for example, is not a case of refugees seeking peace and freedom. It is a case of uncontrolled economic migration, which is assisted by left-leaning NGOs.
My father was an actual refugee in 1956, having fought in the revolution. He was placed in a DP camp in Austria and then Germany. He registered in Austria after fleeing imprisonment across the western border not far from his home. He did not wander around sleeping in Roman ruins and urinating in public, selling drugs and engaging in aggressive pan-handling. He was vetted by different governments and accepted an offer from the United States. He did not commandeer a boat and deposit himself in New Jersey. Real refugees do not act in the manner that this migration has largely followed. Hungarians did help refugees from the Balkan wars and other conflicts in the past, because they were perceived as actual refugees. A minority of the current so-called refugees were from Syria or even Afghanistan (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … Syria.html) Some of the migrants are true refugees but they do not have an automatic right to engage in mass migration from their refugee camps in the Middle East to the welfare states of Western Europe.
If this whole situation had been handled properly in 2015, then the current morass would not be in existence. Right-wing governments would not have had the excuse to begin limiting freedoms.
In the US, legal immigration is now deliberately conflated with illegal migration. We don't use the older term illegal alien, we use the politically correct term "undocumented/unauthorized immigrant". The media is terrified of seeming racist by pointing out obvious facts.
This is one of the primary reasons why Trump won the election in the US. It is also the same basic reason why right-wing governments are winning in Europe; Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic, Austria, etc. Now there are mass movements against immigration that actually are right-wing:
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor … 44d0ddba1d) which are not going to disappear as long as this migration situation continues.
I don't agree with everything the Hungarian or US governments are doing by any means. But what has given them the legitimacy and popular support to enact their policies? The immigration issue.
The confusing and conflating of the issues related to immigration is the result of the European and American left's embrace of political correctness and multiculturalism. That is why the Democrats and the EU has lost legitimacy in the minds of many voters. It is also why FIDESZ and Orban will likely win the next election in Hungary. (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles … orban-says) Unless the migration issue is not handled in a manner beneficent to the Europeans themselves, then it is quite possible that the EU will fall apart or at minimum be even further destabilized.

Chikagoan :

........Unless the migration issue is not handled in a manner beneficent to the Europeans themselves, then it is quite possible that the EU will fall apart or at minimum be even further destabilized.

That's all easy to say, and it's possible to pick over each of those points but we're not discussing just a single issue.   Immigration is just one part of the picture in Hungary. 

There are  multiple other issues which have to be included to get an overall sense of direction.  I mentioned those before.

As a whole,  this gives  the impression of a systematically less democratic and less inclusive government intent on dismantling 20+ years of reform and consistency and moving back into Russian sphere of influence.

I think it's difficult deny that something more is afoot than just immigration.

fluffy2560 :
Chikagoan :

........Unless the migration issue is not handled in a manner beneficent to the Europeans themselves, then it is quite possible that the EU will fall apart or at minimum be even further destabilized.

That's all easy to say, and it's possible to pick over each of those points but we're not discussing just a single issue.   Immigration is just one part of the picture in Hungary. 

There are  multiple other issues which have to be included to get an overall sense of direction.  I mentioned those before.

As a whole,  this gives  the impression of a systematically less democratic and less inclusive government intent on dismantling 20+ years of reform and consistency and moving back into Russian sphere of influence.

I think it's difficult deny that something more is afoot than just immigration.

Yes, there is more at work, and yes, many of the changes may not behoove everyone.    My primary concern is that policy should benefit Hungarians, particularly less affluent Hungarians. I would like younger Hungarians to be able to stay in Hungary and make a living at home. I would like older Hungarians to have enough income to live reasonably. I would like all legitimate residents of the EU to enjoy democratic rights and to live in an environment and economy free from nepotism and corruption. 
In the end these should be the goals of European governance. Many people in the Eastern half of the EU need assistance themselves, and are not keen on providing their tax euros or forints for 'refugees'. Right now the most divisive issue is immigration, and it will be the issue that potential despots will employ to gain power if it is not remediated.

Chikagoan :

....Yes, there is more at work, and yes, many of the changes may not behoove everyone.    My primary concern is that policy should benefit Hungarians, particularly less affluent Hungarians. I would like younger Hungarians to be able to stay in Hungary and make a living at home. I would like older Hungarians to have enough income to live reasonably. I would like all legitimate residents of the EU to enjoy democratic rights and to live in an environment and economy free from nepotism and corruption. 
In the end these should be the goals of European governance. Many people in the Eastern half of the EU need assistance themselves, and are not keen on providing their tax euros or forints for 'refugees'. Right now the most divisive issue is immigration, and it will be the issue that potential despots will employ to gain power if it is not remediated.

As an overarching goal, yes, poverty reduction is a good idea.  But what's the mechanism?

It's quite ironic -  attacking migrants to ensure despots do not use it to gain more power.  In other words, let's oppress and demonise those useful to our cause so we can create freedom,  democracy and inclusion.  In the meantime, let's create the situation inside and outside of our borders that encourages corruption and leaves people in misery and we'll give it a "positive" spin by  calling it "illiberal democracy".   

Hungary knows that it signed up to the treaties but it wants to use it as a menu it can pick and choose from.   It's not a good thing and quite rightly it gets knocked back.  Even the Constitutional Court has been neutered (I left that off my list).   

So, anyway, all I can say is that anyone (anywhere) needs to maintain a healthy cynicism about all politicians and in Hungary in particular.  Things are not going the right way.   I wouldn't be surprised if Hungary ends up with sanctions against it.  The USA clearly believes there are issues to tackle as the previous press reports from BBJ noted.  This is not even a Trump thing as it was even going on when Obama was in the big chair.   I expect from their perspective, it's Russia.

Some back stories:

BBC News - EU and Illiberal Democrats

BBC World Service - Illiberal Democrats (Radio Programme - 30 mins)

I do understand the concerns of the lack of transparency of the HU government and the increasing 'illiberalization' of society. However, I believe that westerners do not fully understand the HU context. Some background might be provided by the following article: https://www.mercatornet.com/features/vi … past/20713

Chikagoan :

I do understand the concerns of the lack of transparency of the HU government and the increasing 'illiberalization' of society. However, I believe that westerners do not fully understand the HU context. Some background might be provided by the following article: https://www.mercatornet.com/features/vi … past/20713

I read the article. 

None of that is an excuse about what is going on.   

The article's premise to say that the behaviour of those in power is because people remember the Ottomans is just laughable.  It's 400+ years ago so is in no-one's memory.  Should my own Germanic-Anglo-Saxon past justify my lot pillaging villages? No of course not.  It's utter nonsense to suggest anyone in Europe has guilt about previous empires. It's just too long ago to be relevant.

The journalist who wrote that article was based in South Africa.  I think it might be worth him looking more locally for indicators of how people were treated by authoritarian regimes.

Perhaps we should simply be more direct. The great majority of Hungarians do not want migrants in Hungary. Fidesz is expected to win heavily next year. History is turning against the politically correct, multicultural open border thing. https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor- … -argument/
That's the reality. If some foreign residents of Hungary and Europe in general don't like it, well, I guess you'll just have to get used to it or move on.

Chikagoan :

Perhaps we should simply be more direct. The great majority of Hungarians do not want migrants in Hungary. Fidesz is expected to win heavily next year. History is turning against the politically correct, multicultural open border thing. https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor- … -argument/
That's the reality. If some foreign residents of Hungary and Europe in general don't like it, well, I guess you'll just have to get used to it or move on.

I won't thank you for that misguided advice.    Many things are easy to say when one is not invested here and from several thousand miles away. 

I'll let my Hungarian wife and young kids know they should lie down to be doormats or they can just clear off to another country as their views do not count in the illiberal democracy.   

If the EU brings in sanctions, I expect both Poland and Hungary will have reduced access to EU structural funds.  According to reports, this is what is keeping them afloat (at least in Hungary) at the moment.

fluffy2560 :
Chikagoan :

Perhaps we should simply be more direct. The great majority of Hungarians do not want migrants in Hungary. Fidesz is expected to win heavily next year. History is turning against the politically correct, multicultural open border thing. https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor- … -argument/
That's the reality. If some foreign residents of Hungary and Europe in general don't like it, well, I guess you'll just have to get used to it or move on.

I won't thank you for that misguided advice.    Many things are easy to say when one is not invested here and from several thousand miles away. 

I'll let my Hungarian wife and young kids know they should lie down to be doormats or they can just clear off to another country as their views do not count in the illiberal democracy.   

If the EU brings in sanctions, I expect both Poland and Hungary will have reduced access to EU structural funds.  According to reports, this is what is keeping them afloat (at least in Hungary) at the moment.

I don't believe that I require any gratitude. But obviously if the majority of Hungarian people vote for Fidesz and Orban, once again, as seems more than likely next year, folks with your viewpoints will be SOL. So as I said, get used to it or move on. Furthermore I base my opinions on conversations with Hungarians (in Hungarian) in Hungary and in the US. As well as the news, etc. The distance in mileage is less important that the distance in opinion. Your Weltanschauung is defunct in the V4. The writing is on the wall.

fluffy2560 :

The article's premise to say that the behaviour of those in power is because people remember the Ottomans is just laughable.  It's 400+ years ago so is in no-one's memory.  Should my own Germanic-Anglo-Saxon past justify my lot pillaging villages? No of course not.  It's utter nonsense to suggest anyone in Europe has guilt about previous empires. It's just too long ago to be relevant.

Dont tell anyone, but Germany still paid WWI war reparations in 2010. Since they couldnt pay WWII reparations, allied countries used german slave labour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_reparations

Nah, future generations are not punished for their great-grandparents' deeds.

fluffy2560 :

The journalist who wrote that article was based in South Africa.  I think it might be worth him looking more locally for indicators of how people were treated by authoritarian regimes.

Arent you a bit too much of a hypocrite? Random dudes from the crime-infested US or terror-infested UK can bark about our politics, but a random hungarian from abroad cant?

Might be worth them looking more locally for indicators how toddlers murder toddlers or people spill acid on each other.

And I am the troll...pathetic.

Chikagoan :

.....
I don't believe that I require any gratitude. But obviously if the majority of Hungarian people vote for Fidesz and Orban, once again, as seems more than likely next year, folks with your viewpoints will be SOL. So as I said, get used to it or move on. Furthermore I base my opinions on conversations with Hungarians (in Hungarian) in Hungary and in the US. As well as the news, etc. The distance in mileage is less important that the distance in opinion. Your Weltanschauung is defunct in the V4. The writing is on the wall.

I suppose you voted Trump as well?   

I'm actually here in Hungary on a day to day basis while you are not and I actually have more insight than I care to share.  I know what goes on.

Rawlee :

....Dont tell anyone, but Germany still paid WWI war reparations in 2010. Since they couldnt pay WWII reparations, allied countries used german slave labour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_reparations

Nah, future generations are not punished for their great-grandparents' deeds.....

Arent you a bit too much of a hypocrite? Random dudes from the crime-infested US or terror-infested UK can bark about our politics, but a random hungarian from abroad cant?

Might be worth them looking more locally for indicators how toddlers murder toddlers or people spill acid on each other.

And I am the troll...pathetic.

Apart from your diversionary smokescreen issues, you know (or should know) I was referring to apartheid which was systematically organised to marginalise a section of the population - sound familiar?  The author of the article sounded like a white supremacist with an agenda.  You should know that and if you don't, you need to re-read your history (yet again as you misquoted Wikipedia - Nazis used slave labour).  And yes, I think you behave like a troll.

Fluffy.
that bbc article what you linked was nothing but a closet nutzism from an imperialist
state owned newspaper from a country  where they put people to prison for four years because of offensive  facebook post

fluffy2560 :
Chikagoan :

.....
I don't believe that I require any gratitude. But obviously if the majority of Hungarian people vote for Fidesz and Orban, once again, as seems more than likely next year, folks with your viewpoints will be SOL. So as I said, get used to it or move on. Furthermore I base my opinions on conversations with Hungarians (in Hungarian) in Hungary and in the US. As well as the news, etc. The distance in mileage is less important that the distance in opinion. Your Weltanschauung is defunct in the V4. The writing is on the wall.

I suppose you voted Trump as well?   

I'm actually here in Hungary on a day to day basis while you are not and I actually have more insight than I care to share.  I know what goes on.

Frankly, if I voted for Trump or not, it is no one else's business but mine. I will say however, that my Korean spouse, and immigrant herself, did vote for Trump because she believes that it is important to follow immigration laws, and not clamber through a tunnel or stealthily climb a fence to enter the country of which she is now a citizen. The US now has 11 million + illegal migrants (

Demographers at Pew Research Center, for example, found last year that the number of illegal immigrants — which more than tripled, to 12.2 million, between 1990 and 2007 — had since dropped by about 1 million. Pew's preliminary estimate counted the total illegal immigration population at 11.3 million, as of 2014.

The points I am making are not dependent on wether I am currently in Hungary. I will be in Hungary again in a few months and have been coming to Hungary frequently since the early 1970's. I was in Hungary on June 19, 1991 when the last Soviet soldier left Hungary, and I was there when the government changed from communism to democracy in the 1990's. I have known Hungarians my entire life and first came to Hungary to visit relatives in 1973. The points I am making are supported by polling and by informal conversation. The counsellor general in one of the US consulates I have worked with was an avid Trump supporter. The article I linked to above demonstrates that the EU is moving gradually to the Hungarian position on immigration as a whole, particularly the V4. In other words, the PC consensus is unraveling in Europe and in the US largely because of uncontrolled immigration. This is the reality and it is not dependent on whether I as a Hungarian am in Hungary or abroad at present, I am quite certain my views reflect the majority Hungarian consensus on migration.

panzer25 :

Fluffy.
that bbc article what you linked was nothing but a closet nutzism from an imperialist
state owned newspaper from a country  where they put people to prison for four years because of offensive  facebook post

The BBC is not a government newspaper.   It's a well respected independent broadcaster trusted by millions of people worldwide.

If you refer to something please quote your sources as no-one will know what you are referring to.

I was referring to the politico article, https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor- … -argument/
This is from a very legit source and simply demonstrates that the common sense view on migration is now being adopted by other EU countries.
The other article did have some interesting perspectives, although you may not accept them as valid. Nonetheless, the lynchpin of current problems of the EU revolve around the migration issue.

Chikagoan :

....
Frankly, if I voted for Trump or not, it is no one else's business but mine. I will say however, that my Korean spouse, and immigrant herself, did vote for Trump because she believes that it is important to follow immigration laws, and not clamber through a tunnel or stealthily climb a fence to enter the country of which she is now a citizen....

Yes, well, ironic that, click here and see if that view works for you and her in this case. Should have sent the guy back for not having his papers.

Chikagoan :

....
The points I am making are not dependent on wether I am currently in Hungary. I will be in Hungary again in a few months and have been coming to Hungary frequently since the early 1970's. I was in Hungary on June 19, 1991 when the last Soviet soldier left Hungary, and I was there when the government changed from communism to democracy in the 1990's. I have known Hungarians my entire life and first came to Hungary to visit relatives in 1973. The points I am making are supported by polling and by informal conversation. The counsellor general in one of the US consulates I have worked with was an avid Trump supporter. The article I linked to above demonstrates that the EU is moving gradually to the Hungarian position on immigration as a whole, particularly the V4. In other words, the PC consensus is unraveling in Europe and in the US largely because of uncontrolled immigration. This is the reality and it is not dependent on whether I as a Hungarian am in Hungary or abroad at present, I am quite certain my views reflect the majority Hungarian consensus on migration.

Well, no, I don't accept the majority of the EU is moving in that direction at all.  That's just what you want to believe or get second hand.  It's quite clear that many people in Europe do not sympathise with the Visegrad countries current policies at all.   Hungary and Poland will get actions brought against them.  In any case, the ECJ already ruled against Hungary and Poland on that issue - all EU countries signed up to the ECJ as part of membership.  Even my own country regularly gets slapped down on ridiculous immigration policies - just today as well!   

Let's be consistent on this and let's not conflate migration with refugees as some governments hereabouts are seeking to do.   I am referring always to the obligation countries have on refugees from conflict and oppression - Hungary signed up to that.   Merit based immigration is also perfectly acceptable - that's common across the world.  Economic migrants are another matter entirely.  I am sure that given your own family history, you would agree escapees from oppression and from conflict need protection.

I was in Germany during the fall of the wall so I saw first hand what was going on there. I was in East Germany multiple times before and after the collapse of communism.  I was also here almost immediately in post-change Hungary and I know what went on then too.  I've been here more or less ever since.

I think it is important to be here to have a proper view about what is going on as you are just a visitor - regardless of your origins or frequency of visits.  You shouldn't get me wrong that I'm complaining because I don't like Hungary.  I complain because I care about my Hungarian family and I care my Hungarian kids will have a proper life here should they decide to stay.  Moreover, they should be balanced individuals. 

We see lots of destabilising stuff day to day - the anti-Soros posters, the protests against closure of CEU, the people camped up against the fence etc.  You will never know the daily issues unless you are here to live through these things - all stupid niggling little trivia that goes on.  The latest is to change the names of a county. Why? No-one knows.  Probably some nationalist thing.  The  streets and bridges get renamed all the time and no-one knows why or what for and who benefits from these changes.    At one point, kids were supposed to learn folklore and in particular horse riding and archery as "traditional" (if somewhat useless) skills.  But there's no money for that but there is money to change a county name. I even know some connected people here in Hungary  that were accusing Hillary Clinton of receiving cell implants from aborted fetuses and therefore everyone should vote Trump.   That's just too stupid for words.   

Some of the stuff that goes on here is shocking and it's a shocker that many people are such suckers for it.

Chikagoan :

I was referring to the politico article, https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor- … -argument/
This is from a very legit source and simply demonstrates that the common sense view on migration is now being adopted by other EU countries.
The other article did have some interesting perspectives, although you may not accept them as valid. Nonetheless, the lynchpin of current problems of the EU revolve around the migration issue.

I read it to the end and it doesn't really support a sweeping generalisation that the EU now is aligned with the Visegrad nations.  It talks only of some commonality.  One can find commonality in everything easily enough if one wants to come to an understanding.  That's how agreements are made.

Juncker's words are exactly what Hungary should be using as a mantra, “Europe is and must remain the continent of solidarity where those fleeing persecution can find refuge

I think everyone can agree on that being a fundamental cornerstone of a civilised country, despite the government's rhetoric and conflations. All the rest is just hot air or side issues. 

My own country voted to leave the EU recently.  While many people said it was about migration, that actually it wasn't the entire story even if that makes the news more often. It was also about being sovereign nation.  Hungary can also vote to leave if it wants and go it alone.  It's too small to make any difference to the overall picture.  Poland is far more important.

fluffy2560 :
Chikagoan :

I was referring to the politico article, https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor- … -argument/
This is from a very legit source and simply demonstrates that the common sense view on migration is now being adopted by other EU countries.
The other article did have some interesting perspectives, although you may not accept them as valid. Nonetheless, the lynchpin of current problems of the EU revolve around the migration issue.

I read it to the end and it doesn't really support a sweeping generalisation that the EU now is aligned with the Visegrad nations.  It talks only of some commonality.  One can find commonality in everything easily enough if one wants to come to an understanding.  That's how agreements are made.

Juncker's words are exactly what Hungary should be using as a mantra, “Europe is and must remain the continent of solidarity where those fleeing persecution can find refuge

I think everyone can agree on that being a fundamental cornerstone of a civilised country, despite the government's rhetoric and conflations. All the rest is just hot air or side issues. 

My own country voted to leave the EU recently.  While many people said it was about migration, that actually it wasn't the entire story even if that makes the news more often. It was also about being sovereign nation.  Hungary can also vote to leave if it wants and go it alone.  It's too small to make any difference to the overall picture.  Poland is far more important.

So the article does not support my contention?

No one in Brussels wants to say it out loud, but Viktor Orbán is winning the migration debate.
The Hungarian prime minister may be much maligned in European capitals for his anti-immigrant rhetoric, his opposition to the EU’s refugee relocation policy, and for building a border fence.
But look closely at how EU leaders now talk about the issue and the policies they’ve adopted since the 2015 crisis, and it’s clear Orbán’s preference for interdiction over integration has somehow prevailed.

https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor- … -argument/

Obviously things are changing.
I have already discussed the problems of separating legit refugees from migrants previously. It will take years to separate the two categories. Economic migrants are in the majority, and who is going to pay to have the tens of thousands of rejected migrants repatriated? YOU guys are, the EU citizens.  Meanwhile the rejected but undeported migrants wander around European causing problems.

Brexit proves my point perfectly. Too much immigrant labor and too many non-English speaking workers and difficulty in ordering food or carrying out basic tasks during the day leads to negative attitudes and anti-immigrant feelings. Too many Polish plumbers.
This wasn't the ENTIRE story, but it clearly was MOST of it.

You say you care about Hungary? Well than respect the will of the Hungarian people to remain sovereign in their own nation like people in Britain sought to do so in theirs. Respect their desire to keep Hungary Hungarian.
Hungarians don't want mass migration but are willing to help legitimate refugees as they have done in the past in terms of the Yugoslav conflict, etc.
The point is that Germany and the EU messed up this whole scenario and allowed any and all to enter with no control. That is why the original legitimate issue of actual refugees gaining asylum was drowned in a giant morass of mass migration.

In the end, I a certain that I will not convince you of my opinions and vice versa.
But I am willing to wager a lot that when I return to Hungary this Summer and when I move there permanently in two years, the majority of Hungarians will agree with me on immigration, that Orban will be PM, that the wall on the southern border will be even stronger and that the rest of the EU will have instituted more and more controls on migration. I also hold that the EU will soften its stance on the V4 and immigration in order to maintain the integrity of the union.

P.S. my wife is finding that Trump is working out perfectly well for her. She doesn't want Seoul to become Molenbeek or Budapest to become Rinkeby.

Chikagoan :

So the article does not support my contention?

Not really because the latter part of the article says the opposite.

Chikagoan :

... I have already discussed the problems of separating legit refugees from migrants previously. It will take years to separate the two categories. Economic migrants are in the majority, and who is going to pay to have the tens of thousands of rejected migrants repatriated? YOU guys are, the EU citizens.  Meanwhile the rejected but undeported migrants wander around European causing problems.

There are no significant problems with migrants that do not exist in the general population.   Don't believe everything twittered by Trump or Fox News.  There are far more crimes being committed by locals than migrants. 

Chikagoan :

...
Brexit proves my point perfectly. Too much immigrant labor and too many non-English speaking workers and difficulty in ordering food or carrying out basic tasks during the day leads to negative attitudes and anti-immigrant feelings. Too many Polish plumbers....

Meh, you are trivialising the treaty rights of others and the long term view.  Remember that in the UK there are many Hungarians as well as Polish people who expect to be treated fairly by the system.  It's entirely their right to be in the UK as it's the right of refugees to protection.   

But in any case, Hungarians exist at all levels in the UK -  the same as the discussions in the USA that lower cost or skilled labour is made available to the market.  These people have to come from somewhere where the indigenous population isn't growing.  If you hadn't noticed, in Hungary, the population is rapidly shrinking.   

But as I said, a considerable section of the population in the UK voted for Brexit because of perceived sovereignty issues -  but that's nothing to do with refugees at all - they were (unlike Hungary) voting for more freedom, not less.  The non-migrant Brexiteers actually want more deregulation and merit based immigration. And no-one is actually conflating refugees with migrants. Moreover, the UK can easily absorb new people and has done for many years. It's always been a sanctuary.

Chikagoan :

...
You say you care about Hungary? Well than respect the will of the Hungarian people to remain sovereign in their own nation like people in Britain sought to do so in theirs. Respect their desire to keep Hungary Hungarian.
Hungarians don't want mass migration but are willing to help legitimate refugees as they have done in the past in terms of the Yugoslav conflict, etc.

Not unexpectedly, you are missing the point entirely which is that the people are being manipulated.  It's not democracy here now.  It criminalises the desperate by setting up summary justice on the border and criminalising the destitute.   Just look at the statistics. Hungary is not participating in a refugee programme.  The number of people accepted as refugees is just a few a day.  That's way below what would be expected relative to the population size and within the designed refugee programme.   As I said, Hungary already lost in the ECJ on quotas. 

Chikagoan :

...
The point is that Germany and the EU messed up this whole scenario and allowed any and all to enter with no control. That is why the original legitimate issue of actual refugees gaining asylum was drowned in a giant morass of mass migration.

I take the opposite view.  Merkel may come to be seen as a great humanitarian and it may actually turn out to be a stroke of genius.   She's created a new base of future labour and improved Germany's influence in the world for generations to come.  And the Germans just voted her in - again.  I lived in Germany before I came here and the Germans are pretty good at this kind of integration (cf.  GDR or even the Turkish).  The longer view means that it will even out in the end.


Chikagoan :

...
In the end, I a certain that I will not convince you of my opinions and vice versa.
But I am willing to wager a lot that when I return to Hungary this Summer and when I move there permanently in two years, the majority of Hungarians will agree with me on immigration, that Orban will be PM, that the wall on the southern border will be even stronger and that the rest of the EU will have instituted more and more controls on migration. I also hold that the EU will soften its stance on the V4 and immigration in order to maintain the integrity of the union.

No, you won't convince me because it's too much of a short term view.   With the collapse of IS in Syria and Iraq, many of those people in Europe now will go back there when the economy recovers.   I lived in Syria for over a year and the majority of people had a pretty good life there - far better than in Europe. They will want to return back to Syria.    While OV could still be there in a couple of years, sanctions may have been instituted with an impact on economics, the Russians will be somewhat in retreat and there will be a search for a new group to victimise.   OV always has to have someone to demonise for his campaigns. It's a very unsophisticated political mechanism.  I hope also that the current generation of Hungarians eventually return from the rest of Europe and bring with them a more sophisticated and balanced view.

Maybe in three years when you've been here for some time you'll be able to see what is going on and then perhaps you'll be posting again with another view.

In the wider sense, if people think the Syrian conflict was bad, there's an even worse likely to come up soon -  Iran vs Saudi Arabia.

Chikagoan :

...
P.S. my wife is finding that Trump is working out perfectly well for her. She doesn't want Seoul to become Molenbeek or Budapest to become Rinkeby.

I think your wife should worry more about the DPRK and Trump than the sideshows in Belgium or Sweden.  I noticed you didn't even comment on the shooting of the undocumented escapees (i.e. refugees) from DPRK.  Inconvenient truth?  If Trump does anything on the DPRK, then there's going to be another refugee problem there and the shoe will be on the other foot.

fluffy2560 :

Apart from your diversionary smokescreen issues, you know (or should know) I was referring to apartheid which was systematically organised to marginalise a section of the population - sound familiar?  The author of the article sounded like a white supremacist with an agenda.  You should know that and if you don't, you need to re-read your history (yet again as you misquoted Wikipedia - Nazis used slave labour).  And yes, I think you behave like a troll.

I see you have problems reading english.

"By 1947, approximately 4,000,000 German POWs and civilians were used as forced labor (under various headings, such as "reparations labor" or "enforced labor") in the Soviet Union, France, the UK, Belgium and in Germany in U.S run "Military Labor Service Units"."

Wowie, everyone has very strong opinions.
That's great to stand by your beliefs.
My FIL, my husbands step-dad was captured with his unit in the Hungarian Army in WW11. He spent 5 to 6 years in a forced labor camp in the Soviet Union. He was lucky to come home in one piece, most died there in the cold with lack of good food and too much hard work in a mine.
He was not allowed to write his wife, she thought he died.
She remarried. What a strange reunion when he showed up at the door of his home all those years later...A new baby in her arms.
My cousin in Poland was only 16 when the Nazi's invaded Poland in 1939.
Everyone was given one hour to collect their bags and get out of town. Families  were scattered all over in my family alone. Some to Warsaw, some to the Ukraine .
This 16 year old cuz was just picked up on the street by a Nazi officer and placed into forced labor for 6 years.
He saw many Jewish people come and go off that farm as well as Poles.
He was young and strong and a good worker so they basically left him alone.
When he returned to Kunkowa he found the house burnt to the ground and no one knew where his parents or the rest of our family had gone.
He immigrated to Australia.He thought everyone was dead.
In the mid 1980's the Red Cross contacted him telling him they found his mother still alive in Poland. He took his family there to see his mom and less then 3 weeks later she died of old age.
Life just isn't fair sometimes.
I personally am starting to believe all politics is just a big lie to keep us distracted from larger issues. Climate change and chemtrails, they are hiding something huge from us and keeping us busy with fighting among ourselves. My humble opinion.

fluffy2560 :

I think everyone can agree on that being a fundamental cornerstone of a civilised country, despite the government's rhetoric and conflations.

With some conditions, yes. But I also think everyone can agree that a civilized country has the right to protect its culture, national identity, and spend money on its own (seriously can you name one country without big issues in its native population?) before helping others, without being criticized. In the current migration crisis I see two arguments against trying to be the good guys in the world: the numbers; the problematics of weeding out economic migrants.

Also, I think everyone can agree (call me an a-hole  :gloria ) that currently not even the most "civilized" countries (idk, maybe the scandinavian ones, Japan, etc.) are fully prepared to handle an influx of a foreign culture. It would take decades of education to ensure that this does not lead to the rise of xenofobia and tensions within the country.

Maybe I've taken your statement out of context, I didn't want to read through the whole discussion, just shared my opinion. If I upset anyone, here's a losely related excerpt from a South Park episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuR4AjKbXa8

I believe the world has more pressing issues then immigration.
Has everyone forgotten about Fukushima?
I have to search for info on that, the main stream media has forgotten all about the dangers that will effect everyone on the planet.

Rawlee :
fluffy2560 :

Apart from your diversionary smokescreen issues, you know (or should know) I was referring to apartheid which was systematically organised to marginalise a section of the population - sound familiar?  The author of the article sounded like a white supremacist with an agenda.  You should know that and if you don't, you need to re-read your history (yet again as you misquoted Wikipedia - Nazis used slave labour).  And yes, I think you behave like a troll.

I see you have problems reading english.

"By 1947, approximately 4,000,000 German POWs and civilians were used as forced labor (under various headings, such as "reparations labor" or "enforced labor") in the Soviet Union, France, the UK, Belgium and in Germany in U.S run "Military Labor Service Units"."

I read that but you misinterpret what is being said.  You then inflated the above by using the term slave labour.  Labour for reparations is different to slave labour.

The history is well documented. 

In Western Europe the POWs etc were paid for their work and given considerable freedom as part of a programme of rehabilitation and re-integration.  This is not slave labour.  After the Communists took over, many captured or surrendering Eastern Germans stayed in their host countries rather than be under the yoke of the Soviets.  If they had returned home, they could easily be killed, i.e. they effectively became refugees and volunteers.

That's not the same as the Soviet Union where it was about retribution and punishment.

Marilyn Tassy :

I believe the world has more pressing issues then immigration.
Has everyone forgotten about Fukushima?
I have to search for info on that, the main stream media has forgotten all about the dangers that will effect everyone on the planet.

I agree with you Marilyn. 

The US withdrawing from the climate accord is rather troubling.

And Paks II is going to be build down the road - using Russian "technology".

atomheart :
fluffy2560 :

I think everyone can agree on that being a fundamental cornerstone of a civilised country, despite the government's rhetoric and conflations.

With some conditions, yes. But I also think everyone can agree that a civilized country has the right to protect its culture, national identity, and spend money on its own (seriously can you name one country without big issues in its native population?) before helping others, without being criticized. In the current migration crisis I see two arguments against trying to be the good guys in the world: the numbers; the problematics of weeding out economic migrants.

Sure, no-one says any different here.  But that's not really what these discussions are about.  It's actually about what is going on with the government.   A different government would almost certainly have a different slant on things and re-order things more effectively or even humanely.   

I originally wrote a list of things set up by the government or its direct controllers which were not indicative of proper and transparent governance. 

I left off a few things -  the Constitutional Court and the football village of Felcsút  complete with narrow gauge railway. 

I challenge anyone to try and justify the government spending money on the sparsely used vanity football stadium (right next door to OVs family home). It's not as though Hungarian football is getting very far internationally either.

Keep fooling yourself...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_la … rld_War_II

"According to the Office of Public Administration (part of Federal Ministry of the Interior), compensation for Germans used as forced labor after the war cannot be claimed in Germany since September 29, 1978, due to the statute of limitations."

"by September 1945 it was estimated by the French authorities that two thousand prisoners were being maimed and killed each month in accidents"

They were SLAVES! Dont spread lies! I'm sure they cleared mines for cash. Just like payment after rape is simple prostitution.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/br … s_01.shtml

"Clement Attlee's post-war government deliberately ignored the Geneva Convention by refusing to let the Germans return home until well after the war was over."

Rawlee :

Keep fooling yourself...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_la … rld_War_II

"According to the Office of Public Administration (part of Federal Ministry of the Interior), compensation for Germans used as forced labor after the war cannot be claimed in Germany since September 29, 1978, due to the statute of limitations."

"by September 1945 it was estimated by the French authorities that two thousand prisoners were being maimed and killed each month in accidents"

They were SLAVES! Dont spread lies! I'm sure they cleared mines for cash. Just like payment after rape is simple prostitution.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/br … s_01.shtml

"Clement Attlee's post-war government deliberately ignored the Geneva Convention by refusing to let the Germans return home until well after the war was over."

Yes, as I said, do some more reading to understand the nuances of what was going on at that time.  As it said in the BBC article, 10% stayed behind and were treated well by the population (Click here).

Best not to inflate your arguments with hysterical statements please as it detracts from the discussion.

Chikagoan :

Posts

Its not worth arguing with liberals.
Its like the case of the narrow-gauge railway. The left were going crazy how that will violate every EU regulation, and we will pay dearly for it. And now that the inspectors checked it, they didnt find any problem with it.
http://hvg.hu/itthon/20170920_Az_EPlato … enul_kinos

Just leave them be. Polls show they are a dieing kind, accross the world. They had their chance to change the world, and contributed such magnificient, monumental deeds as:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe-space
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-36395646
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_poin … 535576.stm

And they cant accept that the general population has different priorities than they do.
https://budapestbeacon.com/unicef-child … est-in-eu/

Nah, we should help illegal immigrants, who left their families at home, because it is so unsafe there...and then they want to go home:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/05/worl … ation.html
“I was expecting them to give me a house, a good job, so I could have a better life. This is what I was dreaming about.”

fluffy2560 :

Best not to inflate your arguments with hysterical statements please as it detracts from the discussion.

You just claimed clearing minefields for money (at gunpoint) is perfectly fine. You are sick.

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