What is a good bank for USA expats in Budapest?

Citibank was always the international favourite for US persons.  I don't know if they've been messed up by FATCA as far as US people go. 

You could check out MKB - they are a pricey bank - but their staff do speak English and German. 

A lot of European banks will not open accounts for US persons because of FATCA.

fluffy2560 wrote:

A lot of European banks will not open accounts for US persons because of FATCA.

Misleading. Hungary, for example, is in compliance with FACTA. So a US Citizen should have no problems opening an account at most any bank in Hungary.

I already had accounts at Raiffeisen (they simply asked me to provide my US Social Security number to be FACTA compliant) and I opened new accounts as both Erste and OTP after FACTA was enacted. For US Citizens, just bring your Social Security card as they will ask for your SS Number.

Seriously, FACTA is no big deal for US citizens in Hungary.

FeliciaOni wrote:

Any one any good bank suggestions?

I have tried many banks in Hungary. And I find they will all have odd fees, they will all have questionable customer service, and they will all be deficient in one way or another.

Just pick the one that provides you the most convenience, while lacking in those areas that affect you the least.

At one time we had 3 different accounts with 3 different banks in Hungary, all had fees etc.
We quit with OTP and the other bank, forgot which one that was.
We still have a Raffeisen account.
We hardly do much with them however, don't use credit cards, debit cards with them, only use them for our house common costs which come out automatic every month.
Not sure why but my HU husband prefers  to only pay cash everywhere and only uses his US banking card and Pay Pal when needed for large tickets items like airline tickets.
He for some reason dislikes all banks and HU banks the most of all.
The local Raffeisen near us has English speaking tellers which doesn't matter too much one way or the other with us since my husband does all the business in Hungary and he speaks HU.

Yes opening up an account has not been an issue.

The problems we have had with service and double speak. In May we had to 50k huf due to the person that set up our account in December did it incorrect. Then we were told the account was current and we were ok. Then in June we found out our debit card was not working,  bank teller said it was canceled due to some other issues out of our control. So 8k huf for a new debit card. At that point we were told monthly fees were 300 huf. And that we must log in online NOT using google chrome browser because OTP does not work with that only or Seamonkey ONLY Mozilla or maybe Explorer but we do not use that one anyway. And also that we have to get texts from them.

Ok then in July they changed again and said the the account costs 3k huf a month plus also 300 huf for each text. My father said that is not what he told us in May, then the teller said that since we did not put 200k huf in the account the fees are higher. My father said we never said we were putting that in the account, the teller said "Oh you are from USA you need to give Hungary money for how we suffered with cold war USA started". Yea right! My father was in the US Navy he helped free Eastern block from those vile Soviets that Hungarians are so not fond of! Course the guy thinks we should give him Jello from USA also and has a haircut just like old uncle Adolf so whatever.

I have had someone mention FHB bank? Anyone know anything of them? (Course the person that told me was a German so i do not know)

We go up to the Tesco in Budakenzi as it is closest one to us, we went to the OTP up there to us the atm and the english speaking teller there was kissing and had his hand up a woman's skirt so at that point we let it go!

Raffeisen we will have to look at.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

A lot of European banks will not open accounts for US persons because of FATCA.

Misleading. Hungary, for example, is in compliance with FACTA. So a US Citizen should have no problems opening an account at most any bank in Hungary....

I thought there's some issue on the compliance with not being able to open an account unless you agree to this exchange of data which is in effect extraterritorial. In other words, US law extends to foreign countries.  I thought not all European countries were in compliance post the Safe Harbour law strike down. But I could well be wrong as I think the EU has enacted another compliant directive which is "Safe Harbour" version 2.

FeliciaOni wrote:

....
The problems we have had with service and double speak. ..... My father said we never said we were putting that in the account, the teller said "Oh you are from USA you need to give Hungary money for how we suffered with cold war USA started". Yea right! My father was in the US Navy he helped free Eastern block from those vile Soviets that Hungarians are so not fond of! Course the guy thinks we should give him Jello from USA also and has a haircut just like old uncle Adolf so whatever.

I have had someone mention FHB bank? Anyone know anything of them? (Course the person that told me was a German so i do not know)

We go up to the Tesco in Budakenzi as it is closest one to us, we went to the OTP up there to us the atm and the english speaking teller there was kissing and had his hand up a woman's skirt so at that point we let it go!

Raffeisen we will have to look at.

Raiffeisen is an Austrian bank.  It's a cooperative.  They  have a fair to middling reputation.  The Austrian bank to avoid is Volksbank.   FHB I have no idea about. But if it's small, you might have trouble finding branches.

I had to smile at some of the goings on in your post.  OTP is a former state bank and it was the only bank available. Culturally it seems like it's not changed much. I believe it was taken over by Canadians 20 years ago and they have been slowly changing it to be more customer centric. It seems pretty stuck in the old ways to me.  We had reason to go there sometimes and I always thought it was slow, inefficient and uninspired and not very dynamic.  Seems like I should add impolite to that list.  I suppose the teller could have had his hand up his companion's skirt if it was their lunch break

As for the fees, they are outrageous everywhere in HU - there's even a Tobin tax on transactions. Get out say USD 2K in cash and you'll be hit for USD 40 in charges.  Terrible! The government milks it for what it can and they blame the banks for the housing loan crisis.   You can use other agents to change money and they could be cheaper than receiving funds directly in USD to a HUF account.  I believe at Citibank you can have a Hungarian based USD account and draw HUF at any ATM.  Come to think of it you could do that with just a USD account in the USA and not even have a HUF account.  Just pay everything in cash by withdrawing from an ATM.  It might actually be cheaper and maybe, no Tobin tax.

We just need a bank account for residence permit purposes. But that said having a bank here would not be a bad thing in theory.

Oh all our main monies are in our us bank account that we use here with atm to get huf out. So that is not a big issue.

Maybe next time you open a new account somewhere you should ask what is the min. to have in your account to get free service or at least a very low monthly fee.
I know when I started my papers for immigration we had to have at least a million in a HU forint account. Later after I recieved my cards we closed that account down and put it back into our US account.
My husband opened our Raiffeisen account over 15 years ago, we gave back and cancelled their ATM, debit card and we just don't use credit cards from anywhere.
We only keep a small bit here in HU just to pay our monthly house common costs.
Our main bank is in the US , we just withdraw enough every month to live on and pay cash for everything. We have direct deposit with SS into our US account.
We do the bank transfers over the internet.
Yes, we pay a transaction fee at the time we withdraw our funds, but the rates are about the best we could find.
My husband though is a HU citizen and  I am not sure if that mattered when he opened up his account, of course we have had the account for a fairly long time and the contract hasn't changed on us so far.
In any case, welcome to the way things are done in Hungary.
There is different rules depending on who you are speaking with, all are suppose to follow legal guidelines but maybe they will omit details and spring them on you at a later date.
It's not only with the banking system, the medical field also sometimes has one running around in circles here.
Lawyers, dentists just about anyone with an ounce of control may or may not try to abuse it.
Hungary is a fairly reasonable place to live price wise but once in awhile it can turn on you and become frustrating  and expensive out of nowhere.
It was really rude of them to blame the US for past injustices that person who told you that I would guess might not of even been alive when issues happened in Hungary. Some people just can't let it go.
When I first met my Hungarian FIL I was afraid he would hate me because  I was American, half Rus and 1/4th German, he had spent 6 years in a forced labor camp after WW11 was over with.
He loved me, no issues, we were drinking buddies, if he had no grudge against Americans that little white collar kid was just being an A**!

I also find it very odd that a professional at the bank would ask you for Jello, very odd and very rude.
I do not think people in Hungary feel the same way about military vets.
They just don't care, really very much.
They don't understand it because in the old days every healthy young man was in the military for at least 2 years at age 18, right after school.
2 years min. was required from every young male in Hungary.
They don't see your father's military experience as anything more then a National Duty, not the same thing as in the US.
Now in HUngary it is not mandatory to go into military service, just like in the US, all volunteer.
Most every family in Hungary has had a relation  or two who either  was captured or died in battle.
Hearing about US military just brings up old hurts etc. Best sometimes to not even mention it here, really, not their thing, doesn't mean anything here to locals at the time the US was always against Hungary.
My cousin who I just met was in Vietnam in 1969. In 1969 my machinist husband here in Hungary worked mandatory days for free, no pay days in support of the Vietcong, no one asked his political views, he just had to go in a work  for free day at least once or twice a month , 10 hour  work days,extra no pay days in support of their allies in Vietnam.On top of having no choice in giving a whole day of hard work for free, he also had to pay an extra tax from his wages for 4 years all because he was physically not able to give HUngary military service because of some childhood health issues. Free days of work, extra taxes put on even his free days of work 9 years total of over 50 hours a week of working and still he doesn't have enough years in to collect SS here in Hungary. You can see why some locals here harbor resentments.
Being a US vet means zero here in HUngary to the locals, just saying, I thank your father but my opinion doesn't mean a thing over here.
In fact when meeting my cousin here who is very active in Vet affairs in the US, I just avoided the whole subject of war, military service etc. A hornet's nest over here.
Forgot to mention the half days of work for just about everyone on Sat. Only 1 1/2 days off of work per week for a lifetime for many people, no one in Hungary ever, ever feels sorry for a American, I probably would feel the same way if I was raised over here back then, for a young man to give you grief over it though is just plain old weird.
One reason you do not see too many really old men out here in Hungary, they either died from wars, hard work or drinking to forget about their lives.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I thought there's some issue on the compliance with not being able to open an account unless you agree to this exchange of data which is in effect extraterritorial.

A country can independently negotiate treaties that include extraterritorial data exchange in limited and stated areas despite the EU. The US-Hungarian tax treaty is one example, which states the US IRS and Hungarian NAV can exchange data.

Hungary probably agreed to allow FATCA data exchange because currently the US is the second largest source of foreign investment in Hungary. And a US Company must be FATCA compliant. Do not believe for one second FATCA compliance was to help a few US citizen expats.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Raiffeisen is an Austrian bank.  It's a cooperative.  They  have a fair to middling reputation.

Once Raiffeisen was suppose to send me written notice about an action they took. I never received such a letter. I complained and requested they send me the written notice they were suppose to send me. Making a formal complaint, by the way, was actually far more difficult to do than it should have been -- again typical lacking of customer service here.

I got back a letter claiming they did send the origin letter (typical second issue one finds here all too often -- it is always "your" fault not "theirs") which said the requested document was enclosed. There was nothing else in the envelope (typical third issue here -- even given a second chance to do it right, it is still not done right).

But, the weather here is nice. 

fluffy2560 wrote:

OTP is a former state bank and it was the only bank available. Culturally it seems like it's not changed much.

I do not know the exact stock ownership structure of OTP, but The CEO of OTP (who also owns part of OTP shares of course) is one of the new breed of Hungarian oligarchs, close to the government. Take that bit of information as one wishes.

FeliciaOni wrote:

We just need a bank account for residence permit purposes. But that said having a bank here would not be a bad thing in theory.

Oh all our main monies are in our us bank account that we use here with atm to get huf out. So that is not a big issue.

If there is no residency requirement to have a local account, and if you can forever maintain your US bank account where all your income is deposited, then you do not need a Hungarian bank account.  So why bother?

If all your income is in Dollars, the only benefit of having a local Forint account is if you play the exchange game. That is, move large amounts of Dollars to Forint when the Forint is week versus the dollar. And keep that untouched and only use it when the Forint is stronger to the Dollar than it was when you made the original exchange. But, of course, the fees on a Forint account can wipe out any savings (unless the amount exchanged was very large). So only works when the exchange rate is volatile.

FeliciaOni wrote:

Oh all our main monies are in our us bank account that we use here with atm to get huf out. So that is not a big issue.

Just out of curiosity, what fees and exchange rate are you getting?

There is a requirement to have a bank account in Hungary to get the residence permit. They want to see all the documents from the bank account we get our money from and also we have to show we have a bank account in Hungary.

So that is why the need for it.

Also we pay for things in cash here so using the ATM to get fornets is cheaper if you use the bank you have an account with no different than in USA in that regard.  Our bank charges flat rate of 5.00 for using an atm that is not theirs which is the same as if we used one in usa.

The exchange rate from usd to get huf  is pretty cheap have not had any big issues with that.

We are not against using a bank here and putting a wee bit of money in it, just do not like people trying to play games or rip us off. Or "forgetting" things often. My dad had our neighbor who is Hungarian come with us at OTP and they still were the same.

Marilyn

Yes this is the same guy that asked us for Jello back in May! He said when he visits his family in Virginia he loves it and since we are from USA then we most likely have a stash of it also and we should give him some. Last week we saw him and he said he just got back from vacation in Greece and Spain. We could not afford to do that ourselves so why on earth does he feel like the poor person?

But at least he is nice. Back in Dec the woman that opened up our account over in 5 was downright ballistic. Maybe it is their help that is the issue not the bank? he hee

FeliciaOni wrote:

The exchange rate from usd to get huf  is pretty cheap have not had any big issues with that.

Here, for example you can see the USD buy rate of a few hungarian banks, the the worst is 265, the best is 277, a difference of 12 forints. If you were converting 1000USD, that's a difference of 12 000HUF!  I'd recommend to double-check the conversion rate your US bank is offering you, often there are better alternatives and you could save a lot of money!

Edit: and if you're not converting cash, but money on a bank account (e.g. you're receiving USD into a HUF account), most banks can offer an ever better conversion: http://www.napiarfolyam.hu/%C3%A1rfolya … 1r/deviza/

Atomic

For 100 thousand huf it costs 11 usd in exchange rate

Like i said the only other fee 5 usd our bank charges for not using their atm which was the same fee we paid in usa or here in budapest.

I do not know if exchange rates are controlled by the bank here in Hungary ? Or is it a set thing for everyone?

FeliciaOni wrote:

For 100 thousand huf it costs 11 usd in exchange rate

That's about 3% fee if my math is right, which is HUGE, the normal fee is around 1%.

Many people in Hungary think every American is a millionaire and if you aren't then something is up with you.
We used to pay for airline tickets to the US for at least 2 months for 5 of my husband's family members, free trip to the US all paid for plus trips to Disneyland, Vegas, SF and Mexico, plus a extra suitcase full of gifts and new clothing.
When we could no longer afford to be so generous, we were put on their black list, losers from the US.
Jello, that's like saying everyone in Hungary has Turo Rudi at home.

Well as far as US bank accounts that will work in Europe the choices were limited. When we were still back in Florida and said we need a bank account that will work in Hungary almost all were freaked out or simply did not allow "that" so we have been very happy with the one we are with in this regard.

Weird, I thought that if your bank gave you a Visa debit card, that'd would work pretty much everywhere... Charles Schwab used to have a kind of account/card that didn't charge you for withdrawals abroad (the 5$ you're currently paying), not sure if they still have it.

FeliciaOni wrote:

There is a requirement to have a bank account in Hungary to get the residence permit. They want to see all the documents from the bank account we get our money from and also we have to show we have a bank account in Hungary.

I find that statement interesting. I did not need a Hungarian bank account to get residency. I did give 3 months of bank statements from my foreign accounts to prove a regular income, and those were accepted.

atomheart wrote:

Weird, I thought that if your bank gave you a Visa debit card, that'd would work pretty much everywhere... Charles Schwab used to have a kind of account/card that didn't charge you for withdrawals abroad (the 5$ you're currently paying), not sure if they still have it.

For one thing US banks usually, but not allways, require a US address to maintain an account. So they may bawlk at only a foreign address.  And until recently not all US credit cards used the chip system used in Europe.

Yes we have debit cards with the checking accounts from our usa bank, yes visa ones. Most banks in usa at least in Florida i do not know about other states, they did not allow much account mgt outside usa and canada. |Like i was with one bank and them and a few others did not have sites that worked outside of usa. Others did not allow atm usable outside of usa.

We are with JP Morgan Chase which is very good in this regard. All our debit cards are chips. We are paperless with everything but like i said we set it up back in Florida with our address there. Since being here we have given them our Budapest address no issues as JP Morgan has offices in Austria or Germany maybe it is Beligum i do not recall but they said they just send paper things from there to us which has been ok.

Or credit cards are all chips same thing with them we set up back in florida they just mail to budapest also.

"Charles Schwab used to have a kind of account/card that didn't charge you for withdrawals abroad (the 5$ you're currently paying), not sure if they still have it."

Schwab still has that in the U.S., but you must have a U.S. residential address on the account, and they're pretty fierce on that point. It's really a dual securities/bank account.

If you're living overseas, Schwab International offers a securities account with a fee-free ATM card, but the minimum deposit is a lot higher than the U.S. account, and I'm not sure it's available everywhere overseas.

We went into Charles Schwab before we left Florida when we yes had our US residential address. They were not very friendly and never really gave us much info. The guys there did not want to open up an account to normal people that did not have some type of business. We explained we needed a good checking and savings accounts to use easily when we go to Budapest. They kept saying that if you move to EU you must be a business person. My dad said no he is retired and wants a checking to have his 3 retirements direct deposited. They said they only deal with expat that are going to open a business.

So whatever most certainly were not going to beg someone to take our money! I think we just seem too poor and had an old car so we did not fit their desired clientele.

As i said JP Morgan Chase was beyond kind and professional to us. We were very surprised. They included a safe deposit box free with each of our checking accounts. That said since we are now in Budapest we need to mail back our keys to them! My savings account with them is also really good. They were willing to set up 1 free non usd account also but hungarian fornets was not on the list, the guys at our branch suggested rubles but i did not think that was going to be much use! I did do one in Norwegian krones as i spent some time there and i have a few friends there,

Yes i looked at our notices they send them from London cause we speak english, although they said our closet branch is frankfurt germany we just have to ask for english speaking person if we need to go there. That is the closet branch to Hungary.

So as far as our main usd banking they might be a bit more expensive but they were there when we needed them back in usa and they work well now. Not something we have an issue with.

Yes we submitted 1yr of bank statements  of all 4 bank accounts to Immigration, but even though that shows where our money is coming into and where it is, they told us we MUST have a bank account in Hungary! We do not have to have much money in it, do not have to use it or have money deposited in it, just we have to show that we have an active current account in Hungary.

klsallee wrote:

..... The US-Hungarian tax treaty is one example, which states the US IRS and Hungarian NAV can exchange data.

Hungary probably agreed to allow FATCA data exchange because currently the US is the second largest source of foreign investment in Hungary. And a US Company must be FATCA compliant. Do not believe for one second FATCA compliance was to help a few US citizen expats.

Tax treaties (TTs) are different.  These follow the OECD model tax treaties.  No-one has challenged a TT in court and won in the same context of information exchange.  As far as I know anyway.

From what I know, considerable criticism of FATCA has been voiced because of the cost of compliance - many billions of USD. This is basically US law, imposed on foreign banks, in foreign countries.  This is extra-territoriality.

Notwithstanding that, the Safe Habour provisions on info exchange were struck down in the Schrems ruling.   Schrems from Austria objected to Facebook's information exchange.  US claims jurisdiction on companies like FB and Google because data is held there.  FB and Google have DCs (Data Centres) in the EU where EU citizen data is held.   Schrems is currently challenging the Privacy Shield replacement (Safe Habour v2).  In my view, Shrems has a pretty good case as the provisions do not stop the FBI, NSA or whoever fishing in the datasets for whatever they want using the Patriot Act.

So, the question is if these data protection provisions proposals/activities protect both EU citizens AND any other citizens present in the EU (e.g. Americans or lawful residents of the USA in the EU).  It seems like they would.  Example: only recently Microsoft refused access to data held in Dublin that the FBI wanted to have a look at.  They are argued US company but Microsoft (Ireland) said only with a court order.  So is FATCA actually legally enforceable in the EU, noting (obviously) that the USA is another country.  Clearly the banks implement it as policy - don't sign for FATCA you get no account, but is this actually legal?   In some countries banks cannot refuse applications for bank accounts.  The reason is that access to government services requires universal bank account.   Never been tested for legality as far as I can ascertain.

BTW, the OECD is defining something called CRS - Common Reporting Standards.  About 100 countries have signed up to exchange citizen tax data, which could perhaps, supersede FATCA.   CRS comes in sometime like 2017.

I expect FATCA will disappear for many people.  FATCA was just a revenue raising exercise that is based on an obvious fiction - lots of taxable money is sloshing around offshore. As FATCA collections clearly indicate, the revenue collected is way below the expected amounts and it's a massive hassle for people (voters).  There's been talk of single country exemptions.  That means legally resident in a foreign country and with a bank account there, one would be exempted from FATCA.  US might give in and do geographical location as a basis for tax residency rather than nationality.  Believe it when I see it.

"We went into Charles Schwab before we left Florida when we yes had our US residential address. They were not very friendly and never really gave us much info."

Schwab thinks of itself as a stock broker with a bank tacked on for convenience, and they expect to make money from your portfolio activity. So if you tell them you're basically looking for banking services you probably won't get a big welcome.

Ziff you are 100% correct!

fluffy2560 wrote:

Tax treaties (TTs) are different.  These follow the OECD model tax treaties.

IANAL, but because the information is collected for tax reasons, FATCA might be regarded as simply an extension of any tax treaty.

And the fact that many governments and businesses around the world have become FATCA compliant does mean that the issues of extraterritoriality is not considered relevant by most governments.

In other words, no government is required to be FATCA compliant. And no business is forced to be FATCA compliant either. It is a matter of free will if one wants to do business with companies or citizens of the USA or not.

And on another level, all the laws and legislation from the Brussels are also "extraterritorial". An EU country can either adopt them, try to fight the EU, or leave the EU.

fluffy2560 wrote:

From what I know, considerable criticism of FATCA has been voiced because of the cost of compliance

If you have any business you know governments alway find ways to cost your business money.

For example, when I was still living in the US and running a US based business, the then new EU mandated VAT requirements for Internet based sales in the EU put a VAT compliance burden on my business. I had to hire a company to handle my EU transactions, which cost me. But to not spend that extra money meant I would loose EU business and even more income. Business have to deal with cost/benefit ratios all the time. So singling out FATCA alone here is basically ignoring business 101 concepts.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Notwithstanding that, the Safe Habour provisions on info exchange were struck down in the Schrems ruling.   Schrems from Austria objected to Facebook's information exchange.  US claims jurisdiction on companies like FB and Google because data is held there..... So, the question is if these data protection provisions proposals/activities protect both EU citizens AND any other citizens present in the EU (e.g. Americans or lawful residents of the USA in the EU).

FB can sweep up data from EU citizens. This is a legitimate concern for EU citizens.

FATCA only affects US citizens and businesses which are still bound to follow US tax no matter where they work in the world. So I would say, yes the US Government does have jurisdiction of such regarding tax law. So different issues.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Clearly the banks implement it as policy - don't sign for FATCA you get no account, but is this actually legal?   In some countries banks cannot refuse applications for bank accounts. The reason is that access to government services requires universal bank account.

There are actually "cash only" and "barter only" groups who refuse to have anything to do with money. So I would say a country that requires someone to have a bank account, and forces them to be part of the global financial system, to access government services violates that persons human rights to freedom of expression to wish nothing to do with money, specifically, or with global financial business systems generically. Would they be denied, for example, the right to get a driving license, or to vote? Is that ethical?

fluffy2560 wrote:

FATCA was just a revenue raising exercise

And? As if the EU mandated VAT on US based business selling online in Europe is not?

And if you run a business in Hungary, you are aware of the actions NAV is now empowered to do to make more and more businesses VAT compliant. Most all governments are always trying to squeeze more and more tax revenue out of its citizens and businesses. Singling out the USA for that alone is rather odd.

fluffy2560 wrote:

that is based on an obvious fiction - lots of taxable money is sloshing around offshore.

There is a lot of taxable money sloshing offshore from US citizens and businesses. But Much of it still evades things like FATCA. And the US can and does "blame" the EU and European countries for that form of tax avoidance. Such as the use of the "Double Irish With A Dutch Sandwich".

FeliciaOni wrote:

Yes we submitted 1yr of bank statements  of all 4 bank accounts to Immigration, but even though that shows where our money is coming into and where it is, they told us we MUST have a bank account in Hungary! We do not have to have much money in it, do not have to use it or have money deposited in it, just we have to show that we have an active current account in Hungary.

Again, I find this interesting. Never heard of this. I can but speculate on some possibilities:

- Different visa types between us, so different requirements.

- Law changed since I applied.

- What you were told was not actually legally required. This happens -- being told you "have" to do something but if you question it you may find there is actually no law so requiring it. Consider looking into further to confirm if really true or not. If not, then you can just close your local account.

klsallee wrote:

There are actually "barter only" groups who refuse to have anything to do with money. So I would say a country that requires someone to have a bank account, and forces them to be part of the global financial system, to access government services violates that persons human rights to freedom of expression to wish nothing to do with money or such global systems. Would they be denied, for example, the right to get a driving license, or to vote? Is that ethical?

Isn't it the same with the country's official language, for instance? If I don't speak it, I won't be able to access some of the public services. Is that unethical? Can I expect the government to provide interpreters to help me? How do those barter only groups pay their taxes, do they expect the government to accept a piglet and a sack of potatoes? You can choose to live on a secluded farm, away from civilization give up so many things that could make your life easier, have a lot more freedom, or you can accept the social contract. 

atomheart wrote:

Isn't it the same with the country's official language, for instance? If I don't speak it, I won't be able to access some of the public services.

I know this is a expat group, but barter societies often are citizens of that country. If you are a citizen of that country, you already speak the language.

For expats that do not speak the language living in a barter society would be of course difficult, unless they live in a completely self contained expat bubble only bartering amongst themselves.  And even then, they can hire an interpreter to access "the outside". And quite frankly, you may be surprised how many people in Hungary I know who do things for returned favors and might be very happy to get a pig (pig slaughtering at home is again legal in Hungary, and quite popular in rural areas) instead of cash.

And I am not even counting all the expats who get their Hungarian friends to translate for them at the government offices for free.

atomheart wrote:

How do those barter only groups pay their taxes

No income means no income tax. Pretty simple concept.

But, actually, the US IRS has "figured this out" and does consider barter as income. And barter groups then form non-profit organizations to remove the income tax requirement.

atomheart wrote:

...Isn't it the same with the country's official language, for instance? If I don't speak it, I won't be able to access some of the public services. Is that unethical? Can I expect the government to provide interpreters to help me? How do those barter only groups pay their taxes, do they expect the government to accept a piglet and a sack of potatoes? You can choose to live on a secluded farm, away from civilization give up so many things that could make your life easier, have a lot more freedom, or you can accept the social contract. 

Well, in a way, yes BUT in some countries - perhaps the USA included, alternate languages are possible. For example, is Spanish a legal language in the border states of the USA? Is it the official language? I doubt it.  There's a surprising element in this. In the UK, an amount of literature on government services is available in multiple languages - things like Urdu, Bengali, Spanish, Portuguese, Vietnamese, French, German, Arabic etc.   Not official languages but still accessible.  And of course, if one was arrested in the UK, the government has to stump for an official interpreter otherwise there's human rights question on access to justice.

Regarding barter, this has been tested in the EU for VAT and even if you pay someone with potatoes one still needs to account for the VAT.  Same with bartering services. All the tax authorities do is assign and equivalent amount estimated on the goods/services involved.  So there's no getting away from those people, even living in a teepee on top of a mountain.

klsallee wrote:

I know this is a expat group, but barter societies often are citizens of that country. If you are a citizen of that country, you already speak the language.

The language was just an example for a right you might have to give up, the right to use any language you like.

klsallee wrote:

No income means no income tax. Pretty simple concept.

But, actually, the US IRS has "figured this out" and does consider barter as income. And barter groups then form non-profit organizations to remove the income tax requirement.

Yes well there is no reason to tie the concept of income to the payment method.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Regarding barter, this has been tested in the EU for VAT and even if you pay someone with potatoes one still needs to account for the VAT.  Same with bartering services. All the tax authorities do is assign and equivalent amount estimated on the goods/services involved.  So there's no getting away from those people, even living in a teepee on top of a mountain.

Many EU countries have a minimum VAT compliance limit. If you are under that amount in "sales", you do not have to collect or account for VAT for sales in that country (EU mandated distance selling is another issue and does require VAT collection).

And you may not be aware of this, but many small business types can declare themselves VAT free in Hungary. They also do not have to charge or account for VAT. But they also do not get VAT back when buying from from VAT exempt businesses. And original producers, like small scale potatoes growers, do not have to pay VAT even when selling that potato for cash or exchanging for barter.**

So, to correct you, the fact is no teepee or mountain required.


** But do be aware that the laws change in Hungary all the time.