Here We Go AGAIN!

fadelheim wrote:

My recent subscription to this site doesn't mean I just arrived.
Jakarta has been my home for the past 12 years, but I still haven't lost my morals nor values towards other human beings.

But drug dealers have.

fadelheim wrote:

Some facts:
18.000 Indonesians die because of drugs use each year.

Not feel comfortable where human beings like us are labeled as trash.
Enjoy your time.

I withdraw my accusation regarding drug dealing trash as murders - make it, 'mass murderers'.

@fadelheim

If you're still following this string…where did you get this tidbit?:

“Why there are no Arabs on death row in Indonesia, as they often get caught at the airport Soekarno Hatta.?? Because they are sent back to their country, within 2 weeks and blacklisted for 5 years. Why? Just to ensure the pilgrimage quota, according to some officials.”

Allow me to clarify:
My point of view put forward in this thread is not about the morality or otherwise of the death penalty, it's about whether the death penalty deters drug traffickers.
My view: clearly it does not, for reasons that are obvious. If it did, there would be ZERO offenders, or at least a reduction in proportion of offenders to offences.
It beggars belief that anybody could believe the small number of executions that are carried out has any impact on the massive drug trade. This is complete fantasy.
The trade will continue to prosper and grow while people blind themselves with this myopic view, patting themselves on the back for getting rid of a few mules, while the kingpins and their corrupt facilitators continue to prey on the weak and vulnerable, offering promises of untold wealth but dropping them like hot potatoes when they become the token perpetrator.
To the moguls, mules are just an operational asset, to be sacrificed without hesitation to perpetuate the charade of a working enforcement system.
Having said that, am I for or against the death penalty? I believe it is an outdated, ineffective and barbaric response from an administration of any 'sovereign nation' that's either too lazy or unable, or both, to do something to address the problem.
Do i believe that any 'sovereign nation' has the right to do what they think is right, for whatever reason? Of course, yes, within democratically framed laws that are accepted by the nation's population and within the international agreements and conventions that civilised nations uphold.
But:
When a 'sovereign nation' is seen from within and by the world community to be struggling to halt corruption at all levels of business and government; and
When a 'sovereign nation' imposes the death penalty domestically, while publicly claiming to be implementing the laws of the land that their electorate supports, while lobbying other 'sovereign nation' governments to pardon its own nationals from a death sentence,
I wonder about the morals of said 'sovereign nation', and ask myself whether their contradictory stance is just good old political opportunism, or do they really believe that the death penalty deters crimes. Not just premeditated murder, but any heinous crime.
When that question crosses my mind, I remind myself that governments are run by politicians. Then, I am no longer suffering from any delusion.

I really don't care if it stops future killers, but it would be a nice bonus.
They deserve what they get.

@Geoffwhere

“My view: clearly it does not, for reasons that are obvious. If it did, there would be ZERO offenders, or at least a reduction in proportion of offenders to offences.”

Zero offenders is impossible.  Come on, let's be reasonable here.  As for a reduction in offenders…how do you know there hasn't been a reduction, the reason being the death penalty?  How can you possibly count the number of would have been drug smugglers to Indonesia that were in fact deterred by Indonesia's tough laws? 

“It beggars belief that anybody could believe the small number of executions that are carried out has any impact on the massive drug trade. This is complete fantasy.”

That is your opinion, and ONLY your opinion, and, it cannot be supported by facts. 

“The trade will continue to prosper and grow while people blind themselves with this myopic view…”

Again, more opinion…and no facts. 

“I believe it is an outdated, ineffective and barbaric response from an administration of any 'sovereign nation' that's either too lazy or unable, or both, to do something to address the problem.”

Ah, hah!  So then, in a less “barbaric” system of yet another “sovereign nation” (that being Australia), which doesn't have the death penalty for ANY crime, why is it that it was the Australian Federal Police who tipped off the police here in Bali about the “Bali 9” gang of smugglers?  They knew fully well what the consequences would likely be, and more to point, they aren't one bit apologetic about it! 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-04/a … gs/6442084

It seems to me that you need to grasp the reality that you're living in Indonesia, and NOT Australia.  And furthermore, (pondering the rest of your post), you might also consider that perhaps Indonesia is not the right place for you.

For a debate to be "honest", maybe ensure responses are based on verbatim content, rather than inaccurate interpretation.
You omitted "When a 'sovereign nation' imposes the death penalty domestically, while publicly claiming to be implementing the laws of the land that their electorate supports, while lobbying other 'sovereign nation' governments to pardon its own nationals from a death sentence".
So, my comment was not referring to Indonesians on death row in Australia because, as you so correctly point out, there is no death penalty there. I was, obviously, referring to the many Indonesians currently subjected to death sentences in other countries, while the Indonesian government unashamedly and correctly pleads for their pardons.
I'm not privy to the intelligence agreements between the AFP and Indonesia Police. Are you?
Thanks for your concerns about my welfare in a barbaric society, although I was referring to the death penalty as barbaric, not the society in which I have chosen to live.
And, despite your advice, I'm very happy here, on balance. I can't say I agree with everything I see or understand, but I'm quite capable of accepting the truth and of expressing an opinion that might advantage my newly adopted country some day, in some way.

Australia got angry when Indonesia got rid of two of its murderers, but only for a week.
I suspect the real conversation in their government went along the lines,
Dudes, we need positive press from this
Withdraw the ambassador for a week and shout a bit about human rights
OK, then we can get the headlines and get on with business as usual.
Indonesia did Australia a service.

@Geoffwhere

Your insinuation that Indonesia, pleading for the lives of its citizens sentenced to death in other countries as being somehow hypocritical, is both annoying and deceitful.

One of those cases involved an Indonesian maid in Saudi Arabia who killed her boss in self defense after sustaining untold physical and sexual abuse from her boss.  In fact, this case was so well documented and covered, that it ended up with a moratorium on Indonesians being allowed to go to SA to work as maids.

There are a number of cases involving Indonesian maids being wrongfully subjected to either imprisonment, or the death penalty to be found on the internet.  Just Google, and learn. 

If you are of the mind that Indonesia regularly pleads for clemency for its citizens subjected to the death penalty outside of Indonesia, then you are grossly mistaken, and obviously misled, as that is not the case.  However, in cases where it is the opinion that justice, or the rule of law has not been duly served, then yes, Indonesia will be proactive in trying to protect its citizens.  And, so they should.   

“I'm not privy to the intelligence agreements between the AFP and Indonesia Police. Are you?”

To a degree, yes, but don't ask for an elaboration or details.  Suffice it to say that family members of my wife are in various levels of government, including the DPR. 

You wrote earlier,

“I believe it is an outdated, ineffective and barbaric response from an administration of any 'sovereign nation' that's either too lazy or unable, or both, to do something to address the problem.”

It's pretty obvious, as I read the “Queen's English” that if any nation is conducting barbaric activity either because it is “either too lazy or unable, or both, to do something” otherwise, then it is considered barbaric in its nature.  And trust me, anyone translating your English into Indonesian would conclude the same.  Once you tie in the barbaric activity to actions such as “too lazy, or unable, or both” you are unquestionably associating the term “barbaric” to the subject.  As I say…Queen's English, 101.

And that gets me to my salient point.   

In the course of this discussion you've taken it upon yourself to both accuse the Indonesian police of corruption without cause, and the country as a whole in participating in barbaric behavior on this thread.  This angers me, and it is insulting to my country (yes I now enjoy full citizenship).

Indonesia never meddles in Australian affairs, but Australia seems to do so often, including wire taping the hand phone of our prior first lady, wife of President SBY.  Australia further incensed the local populous by your PM's suggestion, (Tony Abbot) after our last executions which included two Australian nationals for their drug smuggling, that we return the monies that Australia so generously offered as relief after the Boxing Day earthquake and tsunami.  That initiated the now famed “Koin Untuk Australia” movement which gained international coverage, and embarrassed Australia.  Again, Google if you're not familiar with that event. 

I respectfully suggest that you try harder to understand and appreciate Indonesia as totally different than OZ, and that some respect is warranted by guests who make Indonesia their home, temporarily, or permanently.   

And take my word for it, I am being as passive in this discussion as I can possibly be.

Roger. Over and out

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016 … tions.html

Another bunch more interested in the criminals than the victims.
That lot should go to any of the drug infested countries for a while and see what happens when you let the dogs off the leash.
I think they run at one drug related murder every hour in Brazil, something I don't want in Indonesia.

These drug dealing killers aren't interested in human rights at all, so they don't deserve any.
The lawyers are pathitic so to hell with their opinions and crappy attacks on the people who keep Indonesia safe.

"You can judge a society by how well it treats its prisoners". Fyodor Dostoevsky

Maybe, but you can also judge that society by the way its criminals treat it.

in cases where it is the opinion that justice, or the rule of law has not been duly served, then yes, Indonesia will be proactive in trying to protect its citizens.  And, so they should.

If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.  You can't have it both ways.