Remuneration in Hungary

10 Euro for a morning's work (day labor)? Hate to tell you but you been taken advantage of! A TESCO worker clears 400 forints an hour. So for 4 hours you should be paying 1600 forints, not 3000! Just saying! Maybe if he is the best "gardener" in town.....!

Maybe I got the conversion rate wrong? I pay him 7000 per month.....

It's always best to pay the local going rate. I have made mistakes before paying people more and they can just be resentful and lazy.
If they get the impression that you are rich they, in my experience, then treat you badly. But I get your point , I love living in Hungary , it is so  interesting and on the whole people are helpful and kind.

jdbm1959 wrote:

I can't recommend Veszprém megye enough. Wine country, north shore of Balaton and fabulous countryside with volcanic outcrops, great views over the lake and no overcrowding (except at a few of the "beaches") with plenty of small beaches where few people venture. The locals are kind and generous and local tradesmen charge far less than in large cities. HUF 750 per hour basic labour charge. Our gardener charges €10 for a morning's work with no tea breaks!

I also live in this region.

Just be aware that at the rate you are paying it is probably "black work". That is, NAV (the Hungarian tax authority) is probably not getting their "cut". And if you are "caught" (and yes, your neighbors may report you), both you and the laborer are liable for really HUGE fines.

Not at all judging. Just saying....

My opinion is slightly more on the side of the Hungarians as far a wages go.
Who in the world would ever work for 400 forints an hour, only a very desperate person.
I think it's just sad that big business like Tesco can pay such low wages, exploit people and get away with it.
When prices in HUngary are as high for products as in other EU countries who can anyone expect  a happy worker who brings home less then $2.a hour.
I resent a tiny bit hearing other expats take advantage of Hungarians just because some are so much in dire straights that they will work for almost nothing. Hungary is not 3rd world, how can anyone expect a good job done for nothing.
I admit we moved to Hungary because it is cheap but we never expect anyone to do anything for us without getting paid a decent rate.
I suppose having Hungarians in my family makes me side with their plight, most are over educated and get stuck working for slave wages.
Pretty soon anyone who knows anything is going to leave Hungary and then we will be sorry we didn't support them better in the past.
Sorry fellow ex pats, some here almost seem to be speaking about Hungarians like they are some sort of other species,not like us, not as worthy.
I know sometimes it seems like a worker is not doing exactly what one wishes the way one wishes something to be done but honestly people have their pride and are going about jobs as they have learned.
Over the years I have noticed western people and eastern people sometimes go about a job from a different angle, start a project from another view point, the end results are what matter.
My husband always does a project from a different point of view, over time he saved his boss over 20 min on each machine part that was hand made. Everyone was following one way of making a part, took at least 45 min. for each piece, the second day on the job my husband started from another angle, shaved off 20 min. on each piece, everyone after that followed my husband's way of machining parts.
I suppose I have been guilty of down talking some Hungarian ways but after 42 years , most of my life being around them I have a need to protect them from people who seem to just want to take advantage. Hey most of us probably could never even afford a gardener or construction workers in our home countries , let's be happy we can complain about "our workers".
Let's put the shoe on the other foot, how would we feel if outsiders came into our country and starting on us? Not too good I think.

peddington wrote:

10 Euro for a morning's work (day labor)? Hate to tell you but you been taken advantage of! A TESCO worker clears 400 forints an hour. So for 4 hours you should be paying 1600 forints, not 3000! Just saying! Maybe if he is the best "gardener" in town.....!

The current daily rate is at minimum of 6000 HUF per 8 hour day for daily labor. And often more.

It is only less if you are paying black market rates (i.e no VAT or NAV taxes etc.)

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

My opinion is slightly more on the side of the Hungarians as far a wages go.

I agree.

The Hungarian worker is being abused by international companies (mostly German) and sold out by their own Hungarian government. A Human is a Human. And a human's work should be worth the same if they are German or Hungarian. But the German worker gets a lot more than the Hungarian for the same work. And yet the Hungarian is expected to pay EU prices for most goods they consume.

Anyone else see a problem there??????

I think we have already discussed the lack of smiles elsewhere.
I am a great believer in life being what you make it. We don't get anywhere in life if we are jealous or negative about other people. However there are many hard working and honourable people in the world. Unfortunately if you are on a low wage you have to put in the hours.

I think it is a biological trick that the years we need to be earning are also the years when we have a young family and we are then short of time.
Many people have reached the granny stage like myself, can earn more and pay out much  less but only because the birds have flown the nest.
If I come across jealousy from my hungarian friends  I have to remind people that I worked for it in my younger years, often three jobs and studying and before the years of maternity pay and leave.

A starting teacher or nurse makes around 8000 forints per day so how can you expect that someone unskilled, semi skilled or manual labor make the same? Incidentally I'm speaking "after deductions" and as someone in their comment pointed out, a gardener likely don't pay taxes on the money you pay them in cash. Incidentally if anyone lived here for any period of time will realize that if they know you are a foreigner (and likely not a NAV agent or plant) they will charge you but likely not at the taxed rate. About a year and a half ago I had to go to the dentist as I had a dental emergency. When the dentist was done I asked what I owed him and he said 10,000 forints. Then I said I would like a receipt and the price jumped to 14,000 forints. So these are the realities in Hungary. Almost everybody cheats and when I asked Hungarians why things are so convoluted and difficult to get done I was told "because people cheat so we have to make it difficult". I say nonsense. People that want to cheat will and here I don't condemn the people because the government taxes them to death. When you add it ALL up with taxes, employee charges, fines, VAT/Sales tax most Hungarians pay around 50% in taxes! So bureaucracy only slows down honest people and cheaters will still cheat!

peddington wrote:

A starting teacher or nurse makes around 8000 forints per day so how can you expect that someone unskilled, semi skilled or manual labor make the same?

Even in the USA, a construction worker can have a higher income than a teacher.  So not unusual. 

Also, you may be confusing gross and net income. (And otherwise do note that teachers and nurses in Hungary are paid by the state, and very grossly underpaid for the work they do ... so not really a good comparison since they should be paid more).

Due to Hungarian income and social taxes the take home (net) income is only about 55% of what one is "paid". So if you pay someone 6,000 HUF a day (gross income), and if they pay all their social and income taxes, they take home only about half that (their net income). If you pay someone less than that, then you are probably in the black market.

Again, not judging, just saying.....

klsallee wrote:

...Due to Hungarian income and social taxes the take home (net) income is only about 55% of what one is "paid". So if you pay someone 6,000 HUF a day (gross income), and if they pay all their social and income taxes, they take home only about half that (their net income). If you pay someone less than that, then you are probably in the black market...

The rule in taxation is that if you take more than 50% of someone's earnings, they give up trying to work.  It's a disincentive so tax rates (all in, including social security etc), should be a maximum of say, 48%.  This is the usual type limit for robbing the worker.

Regarding black work, the argument put forward is that if most of the population is not paying, rates will be very high because everyone else has to pay more.   Compare this to the high VAT rate.  It's a way of moving taxation from income taxes which are easy to  cheat on by cash jobs to consumption which is much less easy to cheat on and easier to monitor and control.  In effect what is being said is that the tax administration is unable to control the black market effectively. In fact, do they really want to?  The money flow always ends up in consumption taxes and on balance the government gets something more of its intended  overall cut.   Of course no-one wants to pay high levels so goods generally end up with VAT on within the books but the work associated with it is done for cash which is anonymous and unrecorded. Same applies to dentists, construction etc. 

Really, I cannot blame people doing things for cash if they need to survive.  It's a question of priorities. What idiot would pay taxes to the government who will waste the income anyway?  It's one argument and rationalisation.   If I need to heat the house/feed the kids or pay X Ft for ill advised policies what would I do? 

Look at the fence - cost about EUR 70M - and now considered ineffective.  And now I see, a referendum on migrant quotas. Obvious which way that's going.  Orban will use that to justify his policies and his legitimacy.

My take is that the "construction worker" comparison is faulty. After all in the US they usually belong to a union which is a different ballgame altogether. Here and during the Communism
unions where a joke and served the ruling party and not the workers they where supposed to. 
And NO, I'm not confusing net and gross pay. In Hungary the government get's 27% on most everything (there are some exceptions like books etc.) even the gas, electricity, water etc.
You are correct about the nurses, doctor, teachers etc., being paid by the government therefore grossly underpaid. That is why so many doctors and other professionals are leaving and the government is desperate to stop the bleeding although unsuccessfully so far. But similar things exist in the West too where a brain surgeon makes less than a football star by millions! I stand by my earlier take that Hungarians are the Hungarian's worst enemy. They could make many changes and this country could take off and experience a growth never seen before, yet the leadership just can't seem to get it!

I really don't know allot about the teachers in HU.
I know my sister-in-law teaches chemistry at one of the universities in Budapest and was working as a housekeeper on Saturdays to help out. Her daughter is now grown and moved to Germany so I doubt my SIL is still doing housecleaning.
My husband said the teachers in HU take home around 200,000 a month income after taxes.
Not sure if that is correct or not.
He also said they work only 6 hours a day with 20 min breaks between classes, about 4 hours a actual work a day.
Not sure if that's right either, if anyone knows it would be interesting to find out what the facts are.
My SIL who teaches 5th grade in Cal. always says she is underpaid, I think she makes good money, not sure how much exactly but she bought my bro a new Harley for a wedding present and they have a huge house in a nice area, he is only a ex-roadie, rocker/biker who is just the janitor at the school. He alone makes over $20 an hour and it is only a city job, he was making over $30 an hour when he worked for the state of Cal. as a school janitor, got arrested for throwing his best friend through a plate glass window for catching him in bed with my bro's second wife. 6 months in the pokey for that and lost his state job.

Wow! Just got back from work (10pm uk time) and found big discussion on the topic of local pay. I like to pay a rate that I think reflects the quality of the work within the local context. Yes, day labour is ridiculously cheap compared to uk prices but if I can pay a little bit more, without coming across as being profligate, ignorant  and stupid I will. When a quality tradesman feels appreciated for the quality of his work and develops a trusting relationship where prices are discussed/questioned and not simply accepted on face value, true value for money emerges. I will never knowingly take advantage of the local tradesmen as this would reflect badly on me, nor would I allow myself to be "had". Nobody has any respect for a foreign resident who has too much money or who doesn't understand the local context. In my opinion quality comes first and value second, not the other way around!

Sometimes knowing exactly what is fair to pay can be tricky.
My ex DIL was HUngarian and she once told me that if you are too cheap the locals hate you and if you tip or pay too much they think you're an idiot and have no problem taking your money.
I know I would rather give too much then be a cheapo but that's just me.
Many years ago we had a struggling little machine shop of our own in Cal.
Our first business.
My husband had had a HU business partner that flaked out, we took our machinery and opened our own shop.
During the  time my husband was also working full time for another HUngarian machine shop.
We hired a cowboy/ American to work in our small shop for 8 hours a day while my husband was working at the other shop, needed to pay the rent so my husband was working both jobs, a 16 to 20 hours work day.
The man we hired was not experienced but willing and able to learn. My husband paid him under the table $12. cash an hour back in the early 1980's.
Think min. wage was around $5 something in the US at that time.
Husband thought it best to pay good so the man had no worries but to do a good job for us.
Often the man made huge mistakes that my husband had to redo but he still paid him the $12. an hour for months on end.
In the long run we closed down that business temp. but we paid the guy until the day we stopped business. We like to think how nice the world would be if everyone was given a chance to make some money for their efforts. We may of been suckers but we had a guilt free easy sleep every night knowing we did our best and were always more then fare.

Sure thing! After all one has the right to pay someone what they thing the job is worth if that is negotiable. I personally find many private "contractors" a little...ok a lot aloof. They don't finish the job on time, make mistakes, do it the way they see it correctly and don't show up when they say they will half the time. Least that is my experience. SO when someone finds someone reliable it is natural that we appreciate that person and want to foster a long working relationship with them.
Here is what I done with a nice older gentlemen that did some pluming work for me. After the work was done I asked him what I owed him and I always found the asking price very reasonable. Of course I always added a bottle of wine or champagne to sweeten the deal! So please understand that I was not trying to criticize you I just commented....

Hello everyone,

Just to inform you that this new thread has been created on the Hungary forum  from some off-topic posts of the "Best cities... thread" (post #1 was not really off-topic but is important for this thread)

Do not hesitate to share your experiences on this present thread.

All the best
Bhavna

peddington wrote:

My take is that the "construction worker" comparison is faulty. After all in the US they usually belong to a union which is a different ballgame altogether.

In the USA, many teachers also belong to unions. My father was  a teacher, and he was in the local union. So the comparison between two union groups --  teachers and construction -- is valid for the USA.  And my father still earned less in comparison. Teachers are, sadly, not seen as worthy of high salaries in many countries.   

And of course, a lot of construction in the USA is also done by undocumented workers in the USA, you see them hanging out around places like "Home Depot" and are picked up daily for work (and most of that is also black labor). Not judging.... just saying.

And now in Hungary even the teachers are starting become more organized and unionized with the health care workers. And why not? Because organized, collective bargaining helps prevent a organized collective company or government from abusing the workers. Quid pro quo.

We pay cash to many people at home and in Hungary. How else do we pay the plumber, the sparkie,(electrician in UK parlance) the brickie (bricklayer), the chippie (carpenter) the cleaner etc. Are we not supposed to "employ" someone unless they issue an invoice? How many of these people are officially self employed? Do we only employ tradesmen who are from a company/business? In the UK it is said that if everyone who should pay tax on their income did so, income tax could be halved for everyone. This is idealistic. What about the Hungarian markets where we buy our fruit and veg, szalámi, meat, conserves and the vineyards where we buy our wine? Are they regulated and do they have to account for their activities so they will declare their income? If they don't that is their issue. How many times do we part with cash without receiving an invoice? Think about it. The moment you ask for an invoice either the job offer is withdrawn or the price goes up. Once the job is done do you then say you will only pay if you get an invoice? Will you then be able to go back to the tradesman when a problem occurs post completion? If you sell your car privately do you tender an invoice an declare this as income? Of course not. There may be exceptions but once you start buying and selling multiple cars do you become a car dealer or do you remain someone who sells cars on a stupidly frequent basis?
I am not an accountant nor a tax specialist. I am a teacher....
As for earlier comments on the salaries paid to teachers in Hungary, I think it is deplorable but the contexts are different. In the UK teachers are at best only adequately paid but if you are good and are ambitious you can earn good money (I am a school principal so am very well paid) but in HU terms I would be considered extraordinarily well off. In a perfect world all income would be declared and taxed locally as appropriate. As we all know the world we live in is far from perfect........😕

jdbm1959 wrote:

.....s for earlier comments on the salaries paid to teachers in Hungary, I think it is deplorable but the contexts are different. In the UK teachers are at best only adequately paid but if you are good and are ambitious you can earn good money (I am a school principal so am very well paid) but in HU terms I would be considered extraordinarily well off. In a perfect world all income would be declared and taxed locally as appropriate. As we all know the world we live in is far from perfect........😕

As a side note, I'm told by Mrs Fluffy that anyone on the side of the teachers' over working contracts(?) in HU public schools will keep their children at home on Monday.

jdbm1959 wrote:

We pay cash to many people at home and in Hungary. How else do we pay the plumber, the sparkie,(electrician in UK parlance) the brickie (bricklayer), the chippie (carpenter) the cleaner etc. Are we not supposed to "employ" someone unless they issue an invoice? How many of these people are officially self employed? Do we only employ tradesmen who are from a company/business?

This is an issue of being "within the law" or not. Basically, almost every business transaction in Hungary is suppose to include a receipt. Yes, there are some exceptions, but a brick layer (which actually require special permits and licenses to work as brick layers), electricians (also a registered and regulated trade), carpenters, cleaner, etc are not one of those exceptions. This is because of two reasons: (1) due to VAT collection rules and (2) to prove to NAV (the tax authority) the person's income from all sources so they are taxed properly and completely.

Hungary is not the UK. It is not a "pay as you go" tax system. A person working in any of the trades you listed is suppose to either form a business (even sole proprietor) or register as a "free lance worker". In all cases, that person is suppose to get their work ID number from NAV and go to a local stationary store and order their receipt books. And for ALL transactions they are suppose to give you a receipt.

jdbm1959 wrote:

In the UK it is said that if everyone who should pay tax on their income did so, income tax could be halved for everyone. This is idealistic.

Sure it is idealistic, I am simply pointing out what is "legal" versus what is "black market". I am not judging. Simply stating where you are in each case.

jdbm1959 wrote:

What about the Hungarian markets where we buy our fruit and veg, szalámi, meat, conserves and the vineyards where we buy our wine?

Many markets are filled with people who are classified as "original producers" which is a special status for garden to market producers. Those are the only ones allowed to not give receipts. There are quite a few rules about who can be an "original producer". Those that are not are suppose to give you a receipt if they are not. There are a lot of illegal markets in Hungary, there is one near where I live that has been in court for years because it is illegal.

Anyone selling you wine from a vineyard is also suppose to give you a receipt. And they can not even sell you wine unless they have their facilities approved before sale to even sell you wine. And since they are suppose to have "official approval" to sell wine, any winery doing direct sales is on NAV's radar, and should certainly be giving you a receipt (to be legal). In fact, each winery is suppose to keep a "cellar book" which accounts for each and every liter of wine they have. So it is pretty hard to not give a receipt, unless that cellar is working otherwise illegally. I know, I have a vineyard. No receipt simply means you are in the black market. Many Hungarians play the black market game, but that does not make it "legal".

jdbm1959 wrote:

Are they regulated and do they have to account for their activities so they will declare their income? If they don't that is their issue.

Well, actually no. If you are "caught" participating in a black market deal you also get a fine. I know someone who "hired" a local person to chop some wood. NAV got wind of it, fined both the worker and the person doing the "hiring" quite a lot (in the 6 figures range).

jdbm1959 wrote:

How many times do we part with cash without receiving an invoice? Think about it. The moment you ask for an invoice either the job offer is withdrawn or the price goes up.

Of course the price goes up. Because when you ask for a receipt you are making the other person officially report their income, and all the tax issues that includes. So by NOT asking a receipt you are in the black market, which is cheaper. That is all I am saying.

jdbm1959 wrote:

Once the job is done do you then say you will only pay if you get an invoice? Will you then be able to go back to the tradesman when a problem occurs post completion?

Yes. Having a receipt means EVERYTHING in Hungarian courts. No receipt means, under Hungarian law, it did not happen. Getting a receipt means warranty. No receipt means you essentially have no legal grounds to complain if things go wrong.

jdbm1959 wrote:

If you sell your car privately do you tender an invoice an declare this as income? Of course not. There may be exceptions but once you start buying and selling multiple cars do you become a car dealer or do you remain someone who sells cars on a stupidly frequent basis?

If you sell your personal car (or other personal property at a market, for example) you have to report that sale to different Hungarian offices (I know... we just sold our car). If you are taxed or not on a capital gains is up to local Hungarian law. If you sell cars regularly, you have a business, should register as a business and pay all taxes and VAT as required by law. Trust me, the tax man has been around a long time, and knows all the little "tricks" one can try to loophole the law. And most of those loopholes were closed a long time ago.

Again, it is Hungary, not the UK. Different country, different rules. 

And again, not judging. Just saying.

Great feedback. Thank you!

I can only really think of how bad it could be to pay cash and find out later the job was done improperly and have no recourse.
Even a small job can leave you feeling used and abused when you find out you were a "sucker".
Our neighbor changed out the clutch in his car told us about a guy he used that was good and reasonable.
As it went, our clutch was acting up so our "good" neighbor told us he would arrange things with his friend to fix it for us.
We were told to buy the parts and bring the car to his shop.
Next day we picked it up, seemed ok but by the time we got home my husband realized something was off.
Of course this was a cash deal for about $300. in total.
Took the car back, the owner of the shop said he didn't know which guy worked on our car, really?
We didn't mark the old parts or new parts( next time will do so)
Realized they did nothing but do a minor adjustment.
Never changed the clutch, got a new one from us, charged us for work that was never done.
Knowing our "good" neighbor he probably split the money with the shop owner.
No recourse for us unless we want WW111 with our neighbor.
Clutch is still bad, I do not dare even park the car, another thing on the to do list.

peddington wrote:

My take is that the "construction worker" comparison is faulty. After all in the US they usually belong to a union which is a different ballgame altogether. Here and during the Communism
unions where a joke and served the ruling party and not the workers they where supposed to. 
And NO, I'm not confusing net and gross pay. In Hungary the government get's 27% on most everything (there are some exceptions like books etc.) even the gas, electricity, water etc.
You are correct about the nurses, doctor, teachers etc., being paid by the government therefore grossly underpaid. That is why so many doctors and other professionals are leaving and the government is desperate to stop the bleeding although unsuccessfully so far. But similar things exist in the West too where a brain surgeon makes less than a football star by millions! I stand by my earlier take that Hungarians are the Hungarian's worst enemy. They could make many changes and this country could take off and experience a growth never seen before, yet the leadership just can't seem to get it!

But there is supply and demand getting a teachers degree in Hungary is extremly easy they shoul not earn much more than retail workers otherwise everyone would go to get that easily obtained degree. Not enough workers at the moment in the retail sectors, and tesco pays the worst at the moment even after the rises in autumn on average they pay gross:(Ths is for the full workforce inc ceos etc)               

IKEA    Goss 170 ezer forint
Auchan    Gross 180 ezer forint
Tesco    Gross 180 ezer forint
Lidl    Gross 250 ezer forint
Aldi    Gross 280 ezer forint
There is a planned strike at tesco demanding 40% raise over 3 years...I hope they strike till they do not get it,

panzer25 wrote:

......even after the rises in autumn on average they pay gross:(Ths is for the full workforce inc ceos etc)               

IKEA    Goss 170 ezer forint
Auchan    Gross 180 ezer forint
Tesco    Gross 180 ezer forint
Lidl    Gross 250 ezer forint
Aldi    Gross 280 ezer forint
There is a planned strike at tesco demanding 40% raise over 3 years...I hope they strike till they do not get it,

Those salaries are atrociously low.  No wonder many people want to leave HU.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

I can only really think of how bad it could be to pay cash and find out later the job was done improperly and have no recourse.

Many, many years ago I did not get receipts. Not that I was trying to outwit the tax man, but just because I did not know better since "everyone did it that way".

I was literally *screwed* (and a great deal of money lost) so often by crummy businesses, crocked dealers, and other "criminals" in Hungary, that I now always demand receipts. Since then, not once, and I repeat not once, have I had a problem returning damaged goods, problem merchandise or recovering loses. Receipts are insurance. And in a wild west here in Hungary, the smart money pays for insurance.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Clutch is still bad, I do not dare even park the car, another thing on the to do list.

I can help you sort it .... message me if its still a problem :-)

Thanks, car has been parked  for 6 months while we were away, have to see if it still starts when we got back to HU.