The Needful, the Necessary, the Same. Noooooo!!! Stop it!

Mauritian English and Mauritian French are both quite odd to the sensitive ears of a Westerner. Try kreol.

Hello Neo-UK,

Your article is very interesting and I am in total agreement with you on the issue. "The needful", "same" and "the necessary" are commonly being misused in Mauritius. Even at the university level, English lecture instructors will still bombard you with those words, if not a direct translation of their French counterparts. And if you raise a brow, you are seen as if you are from the moon since you are in "paradise".

An interesting discussion.  Whichever country I have visited there have been some strange English usage. Having said that as a Londoner when I lived in Yorkshire it took me some time to get used to hearing "I will be back while xxx time" instead of "I will be back at ...". 

I suspect you will end up have an emotive reaction to various other expressions or words.  It might be interesting to see what other people have as their "pet hates".

They are doing the literal translation in their mind:

In French , they would say "je vais faire le nécessaire "  and in English they use "needful" or "necessary" w/o gaging the real meaning  since there is a tendency to use the classic Indianisms .

Ever heard or seen the use of the world "revert"  to mean "respond" or the word  "shift" to mean "move to" in some communications 

Yes, the use of 'revert' is a very common Indianism that is even now being used in the UK by British people, and it has already in fact made its way into the Oxford English Dictionary.  I'm not uncomfortable with its use as it doesn't sound terrible unlike 'do the needful' and 'the same', both of which add no real value to a sentence.  I personally avoid it, but I may use it in future once it loses its Indianism tag.

My fiancée (who's Mauritian) speaks French and she mentioned someone said "le nécessaire" on the phone to her the other day.  Maybe it's acceptable in French, and Mauritians are just translating literally like you said.  But it sounds really odd.

However, there is still no excuse for the abuse of 'the same'.  I think this is definitely taken from western formal speak and then overused in an attempt to sound professional.  But, to a westerner, it just sounds a bit fake and cringeworthy.

Hi Neo-UK

I totally agree with you , I mean sometimes it sounds a bit fake when some people overuse these words trying to sound professional. Anyway it has to do with their way of translation,  one word in creole can be used in translating different French words.

I once asked a friend what was the meaning of what he said in English he told me literally the word doesn't mean anything.

With regards to revert, I have not noticed it too much where I am working.  They do say "I will revert back to you" whereas I would normally expect someone in the UK to say "I will get back to you".  Interestingly in Microsoft Office Thesaurus there are about 30 alternatives depending on the context, many of which are more appropriate.

hahaha - tell me about it - I though it was just me who thought it was hilarious!

Just received an email that began "further to your hereunder request...."    

The key to English is - keep it plain and keep it simple! Using phrases like this is outdated. I'd rather you paid more attention to your spelling and noting well if I am Mr or Mrs!!!!

Exactly right.  Plain and simple is absolute key.  Adding extra words that add no real value just smacks of pretentiousness.

I oftentimes find that proofreading a composed e-mail I'm about to send just before sending allows me the opportunity to condense said e-mail down in order to remove any additional information in the e-mail that is paraphrased more than once therein.

For example, that last sentence can easily be stripped down to this:

I often find reading an e-mail before sending allows me to condense it to remove any info that is paraphrased more than once.

As a teacher of English and French I find these discussions very interesting. French people too are surprised and puzzled by the Mauritian French.  I have noticed many examples, some are direct wrong translations from English to French, such as "laboureurs" which in fact should be "travailleurs". "Laboureurs" in French is "ploughman" in English. I think some day I'll write a book about this. Sometimes it's funny but it can also lead to serious misunderstandings.

Hi there,
Very interesting discussion indeed, but I am at a loss trying to understand why VIP has used the word 'indianism', which was then taken up again by Neo-UK.  Are you, guys, referring to something related to the natives of India, or the American Indians, or the colloquial aspect of the language?  Please enlighten me. Thanks. I have a completely different meaning for the word 'indianism'.  Why is it that Neo-UK  is willing to use some of the words mentioned in the discussion, provided they lose their indianism tag?  What does this mean?
As far as the use of words is concerned, I think languages are dynamic in nature and one should expect such phenomena to happen.  Most probably, 100 years from now, we'll have far more 'weird' words that would sound and be considered 'normal' to the common ears.

I think it's pretty obvious what 'Indianism' refers to in the context of this discussion.  As for using the words mentioned in the discussion once they lose their Indianism tag, why would I use them before if they make me cringe?  Once they become more global (which I'm sure they will), they will likely sound more natural to my ears.  Until then, I won't use words that sound odd, just like I won't say any other country's "isms" that sound odd.  Your last paragraph actually answers your own question as this is what I mean!

I have nothing new to add to the discussion but I find this very very funny and on point, Neo-UK.  I have recently been dealing (fruitlessly) with law firms concerning tracking down my deceased father's estate, and I have been quietly fuming about all the unneedful "needfuls" and really, really weird vocabulary in general. I'm pleased to be able to laugh about it now. Whoever made up this altogether new and irritating language? Who started the trend of signing off pseudo-professional sounding emails with "will revert on the same"!

I googled "doing the needful" and Wikipedia says:

"Do the needful" is an expression (considered archaic in some regions) which means "do that which is necessary", with the respectful implication that the other party is trusted to understand what needs doing without being given detailed instruction.
The expression is currently used mainly in South Asian English (particularly Indian English). The expression was current in both British[1] and American English[2] well into the early 20th century, but is now considered obsolete. In later years it was sometimes used as a parody example of contemporary South Asian English.
The Oxford English Dictionary lists examples of usage from 1709 (Richard Steele in the Tatler), 1771 (Samuel Foote in Maid of Bath), 1821 (Maria Edgeworth in a letter), 1831 (Walter Scott in his journal), 1929 (I. Colvin in his Life of Dyer), and 1992 (Jeff Torrington in Swing Hammer Swing!), the last likely used humorously.[1]

So there you have it, the Brits left it behind after divesting themselves of the colony!

And I would think “Kindly return same ....” is from the same source.

The question is... who has the 'right' English?  My answer is, whoever is most arrogant....

Most Mauritians  speak 2 or 3 languages, sometimes more. (I only speak the one. This one.) On that basis alone I think Mauritians have earned the right to do the needful, if they want to.

What you find in the depths of t'Interwebz to support is fairly irrelevant.  However, your findings show that it is obsolete, and the most recent British usage listed in the Oxford Dictionary is making fun of Indian English.

Your statement that Brits left it behind after "divesting themselves of the colony" has nothing to do with it.  The timing is incidental and not even that precise!  It's rubbish English and that's likely the only reason it's not used in the West any more.  It adds no value to a sentence and "the respectful implication that the other party is trusted to understand what needs doing without being given detailed instruction" can be achieved without the extra cringeworthy words - see the third paragraph of my initial post.

It sounds terrible and pretentious and the consensus both on here and among others I've spoken to about this (both Mauritians and non-Mauritians) seems to agree.  Having the "right" to say a phrase doesn't make it right.

If we went by your rules, we'd still be using Shakespearian English, such as the following quote from Hamlet:

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

I think that one of the challenges is that every language evolves and when it is spoken in different parts of the world it does not necessarily go in the same direction. 

I know that the French often have the same problems with Canadian French as we Brits have with some former colonies - let's be fair, some Americanisms can also sound a bit odd.  I still find it irritating to hear people talk about their "learnings" rather than "learning points" and as for spelling and grammar I am sure that the only reason that people put a comma before "and" is due to Microsoft Office.

jkev wrote:

I think that one of the challenges is that every language evolves and when it is spoken in different parts of the world it does not necessarily go in the same direction. 

I know that the French often have the same problems with Canadian French as we Brits have with some former colonies - let's be fair, some Americanisms can also sound a bit odd.  .

There is Canadian French and then there is the "Joual" as spoken in Mom and Pop's Québec. It is not the same thing (and I won't start a discussion on that) .
The first settlers, sent by the French king spoke the language of that period. Over the years, the French from France , based on the association or integration of different regions through conquest or marriage ( a good example Anne de Bretagne or the status of Alsace Lorraine or Haute Savoie ) and evolution of the language on the continent ,  lost the "Français de la Royauté" but in the "Nouvelle France" they maintained the same language over a couple of centuries before they started to change, and  there are less "Anglicisms" in Québec as compared to France these days. The Acadiens in the Maritimes do not speak as the Quebecers nor the French Canadians of Ontario or Manitoba. The same can be said for the Cajuns of Louisiana if one wants to extrapolate through history .

gurj wrote:

hahaha - tell me about it - I though it was just me who thought it was hilarious!

Just received an email that began "further to your hereunder request...."   

Ha ha!  I just received an insurance quotation today where they said exactly that:

We are pleased to submit hereunder the requested quotation in respect of the above-mentioned insurance.

Hereunder?  Above-mentioned?  Please, stop it.  This is like being tickled by a pink feather as a form of torture!   It wasn't even "hereunder", it was attached.

A much less cringeworthy version:

Please find attached your insurance quotation.

Simples!  Effective!

What's even funnier is when:

- they don't revert
- they don't do the necessary
- they don't do the needful

Even if you have a conversation with someone in an office, for example, expect an email to trail that conversation...

"Dear Adrian,

We spoke.

Further to our conversation <insert subject matter here>

Expecting your usual collaboration"

Most likely it will have their manager in cc on the mail as well, to demonstrate:

- to their manager they are actually working
- they have now shifted responsibility from themselves to you on said subject
- covering their backside if something goes bums up

hahaha - here-under and above mentioned all in one sentence!!!!

Yes my husband just found that they haven't done something they asked and is sorely tempted to reply via email with " it appears you haven't done the needful!"

spot on!

That's the frustration - you're given all this flowery language but no action!!!

Hi,

You can see a lot of these awkward translations (revert to, shift, needful etc) in the newspapers.
It's sometimes annoying to read articles switching from English to French to Creole, but this is the way it is and I find it rather funny.

As a native French speaker, the translations which make me cringe are "Facilités" , wild translation of "Facilities", and "Cotation" coming from "Quote". Facilité means "ease" in French, and Cotation is not a quote.

An edifying and interesting site for the expats on this forum :

https://mauricianismes.wordpress.com

Have fun and my apologies to those who don't know French

Well, that's it, Guys,  either you 'adapt or perish'.  This is precisely the new world you are living in, the global village!  Oh my God, I like so much Lucy's aforesaid comment, "(T)he question is... who has the 'right' English?  My answer is, whoever is most arrogant.... " I think using some words in an English which the Brits had once used and left some 100  or so years back does not make the language 'rubbish' today.  Come on, let's not be too hyper about this.

No Wonder ! some students are so miffed when their Cambridge International A level General Paper results do no reflect their expectations