Negative feedbacks when I stated I wanted to move to Belize


Just posted on here looking to move to Belize. After reading most post they seem to not want ANYONE to move to Belize. They accused me of being a slave owning right wing redneck without even knowing me.  I feel as if they are scaring people off and I am personally contacting the moderators. They didn't even have the nerve or integrity to post a reply to my first post on here. They sent me a private message because they are in the wrong. Someone please help me Here it is:
Please do not come to Belize.   Belize does not need any more poachers of our wildlife.   Belize does not need any more religion.  Come as a tourist when you have money and spend it, so there is some benefit to the country from your presence.   This jewel of a country is struggling economically and simply does not need anymore US rednecks, with guns from former slave states with their right wing attitudes of racism and entitlement.

I would just ignore them- they are entitled to their opinion as are you- neither are wrong really just very different views- go to Belize and see for yourself if its right for you and your family.  Live life happily and all the best, KN

Hi Chuck L
There are lots of Expats having the life they want and seem to to enjoy life here in Belize. The decision to make a move is yours. May be a good idea to hear both side and make your own opinion.
I have a good day every day in Belize. It is rare that I feel frustrated with Life in Belize

Ignorance is everywhere, unfortunately, including in Belize. I wouldnt pay any attention to those individuals;  it is not the sentiment of the population in general.
You would have a much more positive impact in Belize if you came and started a business and employed people, or contributed to the advancement of the country in other ways, other than spending money as a tourist. There are a myriad of opportunities in Belize, and I am sure you could find something that would suit you - you would need to check out the work restrictions for non-residents.
I would suggest visiting  before making any decisions, so you can make up your own mind about the country and its people.  Spend some time in several areas around the locals, go to the grocery store, go to the gas station, go eat some local food, talk to people, then make your decision. Our decision was that we love it!

Hello chuckL  :cheers:

Kindly note that a new thread has been created as from your post on the Belize Forum.

Just ignore these people who are sending you messages, and like kwn stated, move over there, see for yourself and if life suits you well, enjoy the rest of your life over there :D

Everywhere you will find short minded people, you do not have to let yourself be affected by them.


The moral here is the oft stated Belize is not for everybody.(BNFE). Having said that the economy of the most non industrialized nation in Central America is dependant on agro and tourism. As for the latter Costa Rica is miles ahead and in the ex pat encouragement department Panama has a huge edge in that their pensionado program leaves the QRP in the dust. The government of any country sets the tone for the success/ failure of the state. In this regard Belize is a failing state.
It does hold appeal for as I have said,  the "margins" of the ex pat cohort. Belize census data shows about 3100 in Belize. There are 1,000,000 in Mexico. The ex pats say of Atixlan south of Mexico City have a perfect year round spring  climate and access to every amenity imaginable. Belize has just too many challenges and deprivations for most people over 50. This is axiomatic. Having impaired reality testing conducive to a positive  attitude, a ton of patience, and having a stoic immunity  to suffering goes a long way to adjustment to Belize relocation at any age.
And on a more irreverent note here is something I wrote a few years back..
"San Pedro is the Vegas of Belize. Ersatz Belize actually. A den of iniquity. A venue of gambling, drinking, eating, fornicating and partying."
"I lived  in Belize with two (at different times) female companions. One Canadian( from Northern Ontario) and one American (from North Carolina of course).Both complained to a varying degree about bugs, humidex induced frizzy hair, poverty, overpriced wine,crime, corruption, beggars, "loan" requests, slow internet, electric outages, bad roads, poor shopping, and chewy beef. And that's just scratching the surface."


There are those that troll the and write negative comments everywhere they can. Some of them don't even live here anymore - they have some hatred and can't leave it behind. As you found out some also have pigeon holed people without even knowing them. In Psychology we describe those kind of people as having an inability to handle each person individually. Therefore they categorize people in a few categories so it makes their life easier to handle. You have already encountered two of those people here.

There are people that want to have box stores, fine wine, excellent medical care around the corner, etc. That is fine they can have that back in North America in a city, or many other countries. That is not Belize. As some have pigeon holed us, us eccentrics like being self sufficient, have little to no government in our face, and like looking after ourselves. Belize has different areas and each has it's flavour. Come on down as you have. If you like it then we welcome you to stay. As others have said here, ignore those people that attack others for their opinions, or make very racist statements. You will find like minded expats here in Belize I expect.

There is a fine line possibly re truth and negativity as applies to this topic.It is a common trait of ex pat Belizers to condemn all those who think Belize sucks as a place for relocation/retirement  with commentary like naysayer, hater, or he don't live here no more so his views are now invalid. Pigeon holing is an unsophisticated synonym for classification. In other words taxonomy. (Does not refer to stuffed critters). An acceptable application of the scientific method. I gather you did not study epistemology at the police academy. Some truths are self evident eg post puberty garden hose showering as being eccentric. That eccentricity is a necessary quality in the potential Belize ex pat is an hypothesis with considerable empirical validation. It is not simply a pejorative.
The statement that desiring fine wine, convenient shopping  and excellent medical care is somewhat abnormal does seem support to my original premise.
Your fondness for weak central government might suit a reactionary Albertan as does the antiquated American philosophy of don't tread on me rugged individualism, but does nothing to help the other 99% of Belize, 45% of whom struggle with daily survival and malnutrition.
Attention newbies! Fill out an MMPI before Belize relocation.Add to that the Brief Alcohol Rating Scale if Ambergis Caye is an additional factor. Pass a dart tossing proficiency exam as well.

Hi chuckL,

Just a reminder that like the REPORT triangle in forum postings, there is an ACTION button in the private message system. Click on ACTION then on REPORT and this will send a copy of any objectionable message to Expat-blog Team and it will be dealt with quickly. This can range from a warning to temporary or even permanent ban and blocking of one's IP address so they could never register under a different username, depending on the gravity of the situation.

Unlike forum postings which get seen and moderated by Team, nobody will ever see offensive private messages unless you yourself take the initiative to report them. Do not hesitate to do so.

I've just happened on this thread. The OP reminded me of an abusive email I got back in April 2011 when my "Barlow's Cayman" blog was fairly new, from someone who obviously belonged to the small minority of expat-haters in the native Caymanian community . The email was in response to a post of mine the preceding December titled More Immigrants, Please.  I hope the EB administrators will allow me to reproduce the email, word-for-word as received and published in my blog. After an obscene greeting, which I did omit, here is the whole email. To the OP of this thread I can only say, you can't please all of the people all of the time!

Caymanians are already OUTNUMBERED... how about some more NATIVE Caymanians? Huh?
It is MORE than clear to see that you are ALL ABOUT keeping and importing "More Immigrants...". You have ALWAYS been about the EXPATS/IMMIGRANTS and to HELL with the Natives and what opportunities are LEFT for them of our SMALL Island Nation. WHERE oh WHERE is your ADVOCACY for the Native Caymanian you Status-Granted Foreign /!\ I AM A STUPID SPAMMER /!\??? Where is the JUST 'human rights' you so self-proclaim??
Do you NOT understand the ATROCITIES and VICIOUS CYCLE of what happens in almost EVERY country that has been OVER-RUN by your fucking Gods, the "IMMIGRANTS"??? Reminder - There is always UNREST and WAR that is the end result when the natives of those respective countries are disenfranchised, suppressed and pushed aside as the 'White Man' has done GLOBALLY for CENTURIES upon CENTURIES. When are fucking CALLOUSES like YOU going to STOP the CYCLE???
May I suggest you STOP trying to AIDE in our Country's DEMISE by keeping your BIASED advocacy to YOURSELF. I think our Governments are doing QUITE WELL with the demise process and DO NOT need your assistance.
Thank you very much,
One Angered Caymanian.

The immigrants I meet in Belize are not the same type as the architects of Colonial era. Most of them help Belizeans  providing jobs by investments and hopefully making the standard of living better for average the Belesean people.
Hundreds of people from US come to Belize and volunteer. Young people with peace core have done tremendous service like the young lady I know from Boone NC who (very much single handedly) started an Internet community center in Silver Creek in Toledo District. The angry Caymanian has a point. There was tremendous exploitation when Slavery was used for prosperity of some. I am learning right after slavery was abolished East Indians (probably poor or un educated or both) were "imported" to Caribbean and South American countries to work in Sugar plantation. Their names were changed (in -voluntary) and they have no clue which part of Indian they came from and no way to find out. I always wonder if British kept a record and kept the original names recorded.
But everything is changing to some extend to pre-colonial time.  People have changed the names of countries and states to pre-colonial time. In Belize the first Indian Diaspora convention is scheduled for next week. Many delegates are from Caribbean countries ,south America,USA and India. Spice farm is one of the places the delegates will visit. It will be nice to see the distant cousins
I believe we should not live in the past and look forward to the future where every human being is treated fairly.

DrAl :

There is a fine line possibly re truth and negativity as applies to this topic.It is a common trait of ex pat Belizers to condemn all those who think Belize sucks as a place for relocation/retirement  with commentary like naysayer, hater, or he don't live here no more so his views are now invalid. Pigeon holing is an unsophisticated synonym for classification. In other words taxonomy. (Does not refer to stuffed critters). An acceptable application of the scientific method. I gather you did not study epistemology at the police academy. Some truths are self evident eg post puberty garden hose showering as being eccentric. That eccentricity is a necessary quality in the potential Belize ex pat is an hypothesis with considerable empirical validation. It is not simply a pejorative.
The statement that desiring fine wine, convenient shopping  and excellent medical care is somewhat abnormal does seem support to my original premise.
Your fondness for weak central government might suit a reactionary Albertan as does the antiquated American philosophy of don't tread on me rugged individualism, but does nothing to help the other 99% of Belize, 45% of whom struggle with daily survival and malnutrition.
Attention newbies! Fill out an MMPI before Belize relocation.Add to that the Brief Alcohol Rating Scale if Ambergis Caye is an additional factor. Pass a dart tossing proficiency exam as well.

:/  Can anybody here translate any of that into English?

Dr. Al I admire your Vocabulary even though I do not agree with most of anything you post .

I figure when in Rome.  I live in new jersey in the us. When I go into the south of the us I leave my jersey ways behind and go with the flow.  I would imagine the same applies anywhere.  I would think most in Belize would not want there country Americanized. So if you go slow down, leave the us behind and enjoy the ride.

Spiceman: you are inconsistent. Previously you posted that my entries were an accurate representation of Belize deficiencies for the potential ex pat. Certainly the data on everything from internet to violent crime to crummy infrastructure to cost of living are difficult to contradict so I respect your bypassing any critique. No one likes to lose. You can critique IL categorizing Belize near the bottom of the retirement hit parade if u like by taking a shot at IL objectivity. Except you didn't. I class Ambergris Caye as the last stop on the road to perdition and you say nothing.
I published my 10 point Belize ex pat classification several years ago and it was 80% agreed to by ex pats themselves. Only a few  responses were both obscene and anonymous.
Now the last post requires some elaboration. Taxonomy is simply classification. Epistemology is the study of knowledge and there are two sources:the rational based on logic and self evident truth and the empirical based on the scientific method. An example of the former  is the conclusion that a middle aged person showering under a cold garden hose is a major oddball. No further proof is needed. The truth is axiomatic.( self evident). That Cayo district is loaded with ex pat oddballs is unsubstantiated and requires evidence (empiricism) by data collection. It's just at present an opinion.
A statement (not from you) implying however that the Belize ex pat cohort are somehow beyond the need for excellent medical care is simply in support of  Carlo Cipollas rule #1:"Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation"

DrAl > do you have anything positive to say or will you permanently concentrate on pessimistic aspects of life in Belize ? I mean, is meant to help, and well, your opinion and experience is appreciated, but being negative all the time doesn't really help ?

Don't worry Julien, our friend Dr. Al is living proof that prolonged exposure to the extreme cold of the "Land of the Big Nickel and the Midnight Sun" have exacted an extremely heavy toll on him.

That's a very fair question. I am focusing too much on the dark side so here are some positives to ex pat life in the Banana Republic of Belize:
1. The locals are some of the warmest most empathic folk I have run across in my travels
2. The ability to function in the English language is a big plus though in daily use most Belizeans use Kriol and/or Spanish quickly alternating.
3. Excellent basic (private) primary health care
4. You can get Hellmans Mayonnaise without lime
That's about it.
the wjwoodward comment is a minor ad hominem and not worthy of rebuttal except to point out that the midnight sun is north of the 60th parallel

This blog itself has america written all over it. Tit for tat  I'm write your wrong. I think the point of moving to a place like Belize is leaving all that behind. Living the way god intended. Move forward be safe love life

Perhaps you should be telling that to Ted Szilva, who designed and built the Big Nickel back in 1963. It was he who also "coined" (pun intended) the nickname "The Land of the Big Nickel and the Mindnight Sun" for Sudbury. Since that time it has become a pet name know to almost every Canadian.


Hi all,

Let's avoid going off topic please.

Armand Team

The topic is about "negative feed back " ?

I'm new to Belize and was not able to post a response to someone who posted a kind reply to me, hence I'm reading a smattering of stuff from all over.  I agree - it does have "American" written all over it.  I have learned that there are many political people living n Belize and I will do my best to avoid them.  Political means - I'm right, everyone else is wrong.

I've lived on the economy in 3 nations so far (France, Philippines, China).  The things that cause problems are (1) 2 different prices for white vs. local faces (2) language issues (3) assumptions on both sides and (4) profiteers who think my showing up means an income stream for them.  That last one is the main problem for people setting up a business or ministry.  We have no place selected for a ministry but we will focus primarily on skill training and teaching.  It takes some time to develop local help and language skills (I've had 6 which helps) and to learn what skills bring the most benefit.  We are usually popular because the government is not involved.  We'll leave religion which I see was scoffed at, to the name-brand churches.  We do not take money out of the local economy so usually we get no grief from officials.  In China of course they insisted on bribes, but since I was totally financed by my personal income they couldn't leech a single kuai from me.

Access to supplies is important and the assurance that businesses will not double-bill us for utilities.  We will hire locals for many jobs of course.

Location will be a key but we'll be flying there in due time to make decisions.  It will not be in the pricey places in any event.  And we will check thoroughly what is imported and the costs.  I appreciate any input which is helpful.


I have four plots in Sanctuary Belize and although I bought them unseen and without knowing Belize, I have since been and done a tour and I am really happy with the way the development is coming on.  I purchased 5 years ago so there was nothing but plans originally.  I don't think it will be ready anytime soon but progress is definitely being made.  I am not sure about living there permanently as I do think its quite violent but I would certainly like to spend a bit of time there and make friends with the people I met on the tour who have subsequently bought.

Best advice is to go and see for yourself, I for one am not disappointed I bought, I still think its well run and for me will be a good long term investment.

Why do you think Belize is more Violent than any big city in UK? the demographics of Belize slant the Facts, Whereas most large countries have lower figures per 100k of population the big cities are still  the main areas of  that violence it is the same in Belize the vast majority of violence is in south Belize city. If you are to live in Sanctuary Belize you are highly unlikely to see that area, It is proclaiming the aim is a self contained community and they do have their own security too.  You will only have see Belize through the window of the vehicle that drives you to Sanctuary Belize, and only need to meet Belizeans that work there. As DR Al said it is only Geographically Belize.

I am glad to read everything.  We will not be in a guarded, gated community so I need to read it all.  Access to computers, shipping and shopping are most needed for our business ventures which bring jobs to the area.

statistical reality is not "negative".   

It is not negative to state that electricity is the most expensive in Central America.    Nor is it negative to believe that a murder a day in a country of 346,000 people seems high.

So if I say the cost of electricity is high, then I am negative?    If I say the chocolate made in Belize from cocoa grown in Belize is wonderful, then I am positive.  ???????

The perceptions of an individual may be influenced by any number of factors, unique to their life experiences, education & belief systems.  The definition of positive and negative is entirely subjective.   Within the expat community in Belize, opinions are going to vary widely depending in part on where they live in Belize and where they came from in North America or elsewhere.   I also notice that people who do not live here year around and who do spend at least 1/2 a year in their country of origin, are ardent  proponents of Belize.     Another enthusiastic group are the people  who are attempting to sell property at US prices.

Please notice that there are very few Europeans who immigrated to Belize.

I am actually not averse to constructive critisim, but the vehement claims Belize is sooo violent is what confuses me. It is a very diverse place with several cultures. If you live in a big city in any country the murder rate is going to be higher than in a rural location. If the figures for murders were given by cities then no doubt Belize city would be still high up in that list but if you could then remove that statistic and count murders outside of major cities  by country the figures would appear much different. Most people do not retire to the south of Belize city.
Actually there are a lot of long term immigrants to Belize from Europe, Britain particularly but many long enough to be assimilated to be thought of as Belizeian. Just this blog site is mainly populated by north american posters, many of whom live in one area within Belize.

I am an African-American retired school teacher looking to live in Belize City.  I've read that the south side of Belize city is dangerous,  What are the "safer" areas near the ocean where I could rent an apartment with an ocean view?

Wow, not sure who wrote those comments to you. I thought Belize also had slavery. I would quess that person is not an American but just a person who hates any American. Looks like the liberal American press has another misinformed person on their side. I will be moving there in 2 years to Sartineja and I hope I don't run into people like that. I will try very hard not to bring my US politics with me.

Don't listen to haters
They have some sort of agenda. I can imagine they either hate outsiders because of negative experiences they might have had in the past.
It might be people moving there who don't want everything bought up before they can move there.
Who know and who cares.
I've run into people in my life who are close friends who say " There is no way you are moving there when you retire". I don't tell them how rude they are being I just say " You will see in five years".
Believe in yourself no matter what you dreams might be and go for it. If you don't fight for it who will.
I sure wouldn't let some anonymous jerks bother me.  Find positive people (who also don't have an agenda) who like to talk about there experiences in moving to Belize and just talk to them.

ignore it. I belong to several of these forums as I too am considering a move to Belize. it seems there are at least one or two in each forum that do their best to convince people it would be the mistake of their life and the place is gang ruled and strewn with the bodies of dead expats. It's all B.S. Don't know (or care) what their personal agendas are that make them post their poison but I've read enough positive stuff to convince me that they're just A hole haters with a desire to screw with peoples dreams.

I have been participating in online discussions on Belize for about 15 years.  Some things do not change and are consistent across all various forums or facebook discussions:

1. There are always people who hype Belize without much experience in the country.  They can't stand type #2 who tells them differently.
2. There are always people who left Belize because it didn't work out -- usually after 6 months to a year.  Often they had no exit plan in case things didn't work out.  They decide they are not at fault for poor planning, but rather the problems are they were duped in believing. They feel compelled to convince #1 to reconsider.
3. The majority of people that participate in Expat discussions have ZERO skin in the game -- they have not purchased land, have not married a Belizean, have not opened a business.  Often their only experience was a quick vacation. 
4.  Most people in these discussions will never move to Belize. If they did, Belize would have more than the 2000 - 3000 expats currently estimated.  That means that all but 5% of the conversations that you are reading are fluff by people that do not know much but like their opinions heard.
5. The number one motivations of moving to Belize are religion, lack of savings for retirement, presumption that there is less government, the english language.  Far fewer move because they like Belizean culture and history, or have a job opportunity which requires something local (Mara Archeology, study of the rainforest etc.)  This means lots of disappointed people who forgot they do not like Belize, Belizeans, the belize government or anything else Belizean.
6. Expats in the country the longest have seen drastic changes in the type of people looking to move over who was interested 10 - 20 years ago.
7.  Belize is extremely diverse from region to region -- the info you hear that gets generalized to pertain to the whole country might be just one person's experience in one pocket of the country and have nothing to do with everywhere else. 
8.  Developers pretend to be retirees and pretend you should buy a lot where they did.
9.  It's common for everyone who doesn't have enough money to make the move to assume they can make money doing an idea that no one else has every thought of or tried. or Just put up a for-rent sign or put up a fee palapas and all lack-of-retirement planning goes away.
10.  Many interested movers have never been adventurous travelers, have never been out of the US, just got their first passport. 
11.  It's so much easier to call someone a hater than to actually address the concerns they raise.

Hi Prestonia
Your source ??

Think the truest point is the small percentage of people who are moving or have moved there without a plan B if they find they do not  actually like living in Belize for whatever reason. My sister lived there for just over a year, having visited me when we originaly lived there and was at a crossroads in her life. It was the answer move to this beautiful country  to run  a business she had lots of experience with. In reality simply to keep ahead of the bills and live in a half decent home took all her time in the business. She returned to UK not blaming Belize but regretting she had not done better research into just how much  annual return she could expect from the business that is basically only really profitable for 5 or 6 months of the year. Her major regret was she did not get to see much of the country she came to, working 6 and sometimes 7 days a week. Luckily she had not burned her boats and so had something to come back to. I would not  be returning to Belize if I had to earn a living and/or were hoping to find that golden Idea that would make me rich. I love Belize, warts and all so I have done my homework, over many years, did not buy something years ago hoping it would appreciate so I could sell to pay for my dream. did it the hard way saved up  capital and built up the pensions so we can live happily ever after.

Spiceman, you ask for sources.  I know this off the top of my head from years of discussion with expats, from people who come and go, from enthusiasts who turn into bashers.

But for those that need some hard evidence, look at the math -- the numbers just aren't there:

Quoted here recently was the number of expats in Belize (3100)

Quoted by Lan Sluder of Fodors and Easy Belize from 2004 -- his estimate 1800 Expats (I can send the source if someone needs to see it, but links here always get removed.)

So it took 10 years for 1800 to grow to 3100.  That';s a compounded rate of 5.5% per year.  That means each year for 100 expats there is a net growth of 5 or 6 new expats.  Most people do not arrive alone, but more than likely arrive in pairs.

We can now extrapolate that there will be 186 net new persons in Belize in 2014 or 93 couples.

If you search on this site here  you find that there are 2284 people signed up on the Belize part of Expat-blog.  475 of you are local, the other 1809 of you say that you would like to live in Belize.  So  at least 90% are wishful dreamers becasue you are not arriving any time soon (even assuming you have to sign up here to move to belize, which you obviously do not.

That little numbers game is just an exercise, but it's pretty easy to show that the vast majority of people are never going to make the move -- the numbers just do not support it.  And this isn't the only group -- there are facebook groups and the San Pedro Forum, and the Belize Forum etc.  Lots and Lots of interest and very few takers.

Developers and magazines like international living and "Live and retire oversees" keep hyping how Belize is a top 10 place to retire, but no one is buying it.  There are more than a million expats just next-door in Mexico. 

I am not some kind of a hater, just a realist -- I have run a tourism business in belize for 11 years and own 3 properties and I really enjoy it.  But Belize has its pros and its cons -- "it's not for everyone" is actually the wrong statement.  More like "It's right for a few, everyone else is joking."

I also follow  a few forums and the one or two on each place are often the same folks with different sigs. One person with a a very down and negative attitude to Belize is on at least 2 that  I can recognise and possibly a 3rd, not absolutely sure thats him yet.

You may be right . It is hard to make money in Belize . There is some value in the sheer enjoyment of living here

very convincing
I would like to hear why Belize comes out short compared to Mexico . Is it GOB ? Crime ? or  Infra structure ?
Being a small country, there is no market for any business or Industry to move in.  Except for Tourism, Banana ,Cacao ,and sugar,some rice and Shrimp ,there are no major Industries. The tax base may be low for the GOB to make High ways and help with Utilities. The telephone companies may not have enough revenue to upgrade their equipments. Even though Belize produce oil ,the refineries are outside the country and the fuel price stay high.
All these are impediments for growth.
But I am optimistic . Influx of Ex-pats may be a good thing for the country. It increases the knowledge base and they bring in capital. If you think there are impediments for the Expats ,coming in to the country and having a decent life, that need to be addressed . I would like to know how much money is spend by Expats in Belize , paying GOB ,buying property and spending money for daily expense. This may be important data. GOB may want to compare their policies compared to other countries perceived by Ex-pats as more attractive places.
The oil Industry may take off and this may bring in hard currency needed for development and everybody in the country may benefit from it like countries in middle east.
I have been watching the growth of Belize. I would like to say it is remarkable but it is not all bad.
I would like to characterize it as  due to growing pain. There may be advantages for being small
Some alliance with neighboring countries (This should come from politicians) may alleviate the problems of being small.

Been studying the blog for a bit now. Like FB negativity aka realism is frowned upon and renamed hater or naysayer etc. Based on what I can determine Belize is not high on various retirement lists  some not at all. I am ambivalent. Health and safety are concerns and as a retired ICU RN I am not impressed with the health system. Safety is another issue probably outside Belize  City you are fine but petty crime and home invasions seem prevalent. Panama does abetter job of encouraging relocation. Mexico seems fairly appealing as well. I visited Belize in 1996 and it was great, but never thought it was a good relocation destination. maybe better now.
Dr Al is a bit strong but at least he backs up his diatribes with easily verifiable facts. It seems very expensive and certainly infrastructure is poor and IL has it listed last in this area.
Hard to say.

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