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It's frustrating applying for a teaching job if you're Asian looking

Since you guys are talking could have beens. Here's mine:

After being called by the school or employer (presumably not at first gasp, but after some discussion) -
Applicant: "I'm asian looking, will that be an issue?"
school/interview board (after much hesitation): "We'are really sorry, but we do not accept Asians".

was it the applicant's fault for being 'negative'?. Seriously?..He was being straight-forward. I assume this happened in Saigon, since the post is in the saigon forum. Saigonese are renown for being straight forward.

Why waste the school's time and his time, by attending an interview, where he was simply going to be rejected. If he attended the interview, would the interviewees have told him straightway they could not go ahead with the interview "because he was Asian looking"?. NO!, they would have carried on a Sham interview, just to keep up appearances.

OP was only preventing this happening by asking on first instance, at the telephone exchange stage. To be fair/honest, the school/employer's response ought to have been:

Sure!, we welcome applicant's of all backgrounds (no matter what your genes are).

Note: he was not applying for job as a female security officer in an all female school, where the security officer may have had to do body searches on female students.

BTW, I refuse to accept anyone saying that this is just the way the cookie crumbles. Expose discrimination. Expose wrong-dong at every opportunity. World is a much nicer place because of people like the OP who stand up for they believe in.

OP: if you are not comfortable naming the school/employer here, how about leaving a google review. At least others will become more aware of this barbaric practice by the school/employer.

sanooku :

Just a joke. Relax. Don't' take it too seriously.

Oh you mean like the one you didn't like about cookies and biscuits.   :/

THIGV :
sanooku :

Just a joke. Relax. Don't' take it too seriously.

Oh you mean like the one you didn't like about cookies and biscuits.   :/

critique others, but don't do the same thing you are complainng about (yourself). That's what I mean.

Regarding the "what we're smoking" comment, well, I'm partly to blame for ending up talking about Miyamoto Musashi on a "It's hard to find a job as a teacher when you're Asian looking" thread but it kind of made sense in my head when I wrote it :-D

:offtopic:  Your story made perfect sense to me too, Willy.  Eastern Philosophy was my major in college so I often saw the form and shape of logic in the vaguest image of an idea.  However, the story you shared with us did not end there.  Miyamoto Musashi did not go back to the boat, and the fight resulted in Sasaki Kojiro's death, which, in turn, lead to the final reaching of satori on Musashi's part.

http://www.musashi-miyamoto.com/sasaki-kojiro.html

Ciambella :

Your story made perfect sense to me too, Willy.  Eastern Philosophy was my major in college so I often saw the form and shape of logic in the vaguest image of an idea.  However, the story you shared with us did not end there.  Musashi did not go back to the boat, and the fight resulted inthe death of Sasaki Kojiro and the reaching of satori on Musashi's part.

http://www.musashi-miyamoto.com/sasaki-kojiro.html

Well I'm glad you are so well informed on the subject. Yes the fight sadly went on, but I'm guessing a bit of luck was involved. Both were great skilled fighters and odds were probably at 50-50 :-) Musashi's psychological game showed that it's not just about skill, though.

PS: It's funny you've used a link from this website, this site is actually owned by an ex co-worker of mine, and he's married to a Japanese woman!

WillyBaldy :

PS: It's funny you've used a link from this website, this site is actually owned by an ex co-worker of mine, and he's married to a Japanese woman!

It's a small world, as they said.

BTW, my thoughts on the story continued this way:  the failure could be seen as Kojiro's for being badly affected at first by rage, then being beaten and killed in the fight.  OTOH, the failure could be placed squarely on Musashi's shoulder for not seeing the tragic outcome before planning his strategies.  A great warrior should have seen beyond the victory of a battle, and should have understood that victory meant more than a win.

That's the problem with my former education, I was taught to recognise the many shades of grey in concrete, so to never put my complete faith in any "firm" idea.

WillyBaldy :

Regarding the "what we're smoking" comment, well, I'm partly to blame for ending up talking about Miyamoto Musashi on a "It's hard to find a job as a teacher when you're Asian looking" thread but it kind of made sense in my head when I wrote it :-D

I can see that you were joking when you say the above.

However, if you weren't, then "but it kind of made sense in my head when I wrote it", is similar to saying "it was a good idea at the time". I believe it's called a passing fancy.

BTW, psychologist tend to employ reasoning similar to yours. Scabbard thrown on the beach before the fight, oh!, it must mean he believes he can't win. When in fact he may be doing this out of habit or he may find it more comfortable to fight without the scabbard dangling about his person.

Suffice to say, there may be a multitude of explanations as to why someone acted in the manner they did, not one simple explanation. Humans are by far very complex creatures. They hardly act out of simple binary (yes/no, black/white reasoning), there's feelings, desires, emotions all playing their part. If you've never seen the film 'Donnie Darko', watch it!. Especially the classroom exercise/scene where students are asked to put real life scenarios in to either of two categories - called 'love' or 'fear'. Watch Donnie Darko's reply. I'll leave you to make your own conclusions (in your head – although Donnie’s explanation is quite straight-forward and not abstract).

I'm all for positivity and determination to accomplish tasks. But telling the employer you are asian looking = belief in failure. Therefore, failure was the only result. These two conclusions are so wide apart they don't belong in the same conversation.

Happen to come across this advert on craiglist. They are looking for "Caucasians" hailing from Britain, Australia, New Zealand,...and other EUROPEAN countries. LOL. I wonder if Micheal Jackson would have made the cut.

Here's the wording on the ad. (if it soon happens to disappear!):

Urgently Looking for Teachers available in the weekends. (Binh Thanh district)

Dear expats,

We are an English school looking to work with Expats who come to the city to be an English teacher as a part-time job.
Here are the requirements:
- Caucasians from Britain, NewZealand, Australia, America, Canada, South Africa, other European countries.
- TESOL/TEFL certificates.
- Love kids, can also work well with teenagers and young adults.
- Active, patient, experience, good listener.
- Flexible, skills in solving problems.
Payment: can be flexible weekly or monthly. Pay rate per hour 17-20usd/hour. Long-term contract preferable.
Please send your resume to our email with your mobile phone number and we will get back to you as soon as possible.
Thank you.

Notice how they finish the ad with "Thank you", so at least you couldn't fault them for not being polite.

Sorry to work backwards and  :offtopic: as well but I just picked up on this:

WillyBaldy :

Both were great skilled fighters and odds were probably at 50-50 :-)

I learned in a lecture on Japanese history years ago that the odds of death for both fighters in unarmoured samurai duels (as opposed to armoured warfare) were 75%.  How can this be as that is of course more than 100%? It is because in 50% of such encounters, the winner later died of his wounds while of course 100% of the losers were dead.   :sosad:

Fight to the death?..Actually, the Brits have a solution. Invent a game called cricket that lasts 5 days. If there's no outcome, call it a draw.

sanooku - So you want to flag an ad on CL because you don't approve of them specifically stating who they want to hire? I'm guessing if the ad said they said they wanted a Pakistani, you'd be the first inline to apply.

Adhome01 :

sanooku - So you want to flag an ad on CL because you don't approve of them specifically stating who they want to hire? I'm guessing if the ad said they said they wanted a Pakistani, you'd be the first inline to apply.

You are talking about a hypothetical. Anyway, let me answer. No. I wouldn't be the first in line to apply. I'd be rather skeptical about the organisation/school as a whole. BTW, Even with your hypothetical you have moved the goalposts. :huh:

The ad says "Caucasians from Britain, New Zealand.."
Not "We are looking for candidates from Pakistan, Britain...", nor did it say "we are looking for Brown skinned people from Pakistan, India, Bangladesh....". Notice the use of the word called "Caucasian", there is no similar word for "brown skinned people". So, as to your hypothetical, I don't think we are comparing like-for-like.

BTW: I'm all for giving minorities opportunities on some occasions (for employment), but there are limits to it. i.e. sometimes I've been served by someone who got the job just because they are a minority (I'm not talking about a teaching position here - other positions). it's so obvious, because the service has not been up to scratch. I think in those circumstances, at least, the recruitment process ought to ensure that they recruit a candidate who can reach a certain benchmark with the adequate training (and they ought to be provided this training) so the organisation doesn't suffer as a whole.

Just my two cents.

It is funny that I have came discovered there are many white people who what we called " native speakers" still get picked for English teacher rather than some Asians with full on English speaking ability.  A friend of mine who are currently working at both VUS and VUA suggested that I don't speak any Vietnamese when I apply at these centers...

Clintiii :

It is funny that I have came discovered there are many white people who what we called " native speakers" still get picked for English teacher rather than some Asians with full on English speaking ability.  A friend of mine who are currently working at both VUS and VUA suggested that I don't speak any Vietnamese when I apply at these centers...

Surely, "A friend of mine who is currently working at both .......".

The grammar police are out in full force today.  ;)

sanooku :
Clintiii :

It is funny that I have came discovered there are many white people who what we called " native speakers" still get picked for English teacher rather than some Asians with full on English speaking ability.  A friend of mine who are currently working at both VUS and VUA suggested that I don't speak any Vietnamese when I apply at these centers...

Surely, "A friend of mine who is currently working at both .......".

The grammar police are out in full force today.  ;)

Ner, they're on a coffee break.
I know this because even my lousy grammar skills allowed me to spot a lot more than one error in his post.

Much as I have an opinion on the subject, it's been said a good few times so I'll shut up.

Yes it sure is. I'm Singaporean and was told by HR (and I appreciated their honesty) from a language school that although I have much more qualifications and experience than most of their native english speakers, few Vietnamese parents would pay to have another Asian teach their children.

I later learned that they hired a Scotsman with an online TEFL over me.

I wish you all the best in getting a job buddy. Heads up, it's doable.

A Vietnamese with a Scottish accent, I'd pay to hear that! :-D

WillyBaldy :

A Vietnamese with a Scottish accent, I'd pay to hear that! :-D

Not a Vietnamese but an actual Scot (Glaswegian) was the only person that I ever knew was directly discriminated against for his accent.  He and I both taught at the same middle school for two years at about 20 hours a week.  We were both the oddball types that actually liked public school teaching, but we were lucky to be in such a good school.   Although he had no prior experience, I believe he developed into a good teacher and was well liked by his students.  Although the classes were tracked by some combination of scores in all subjects (the famous standardized tests,) most of his students were among the most fluent. 

In the third year, he suddenly was told not to come back because of student complaints about his accent.  I spoke with some of his students who told me that this was not at all true and that they were fine with his accent and rather distressed about his being sacked.  I see them as the ultimate arbiters.   He suspected that one of the local VN English teachers may have made the complaint.  I should add that almost all of the local teachers at this school were both friendly and good teachers but of course not all were.  I have to admit that I had to listen intently to always understand him, but that is what the students are supposed to be doing anyway.   :cool:  We taught independently at this school, without local teachers in the room, and if this teacher had only occasional words with him, it is possible that she couldn't understand him.   However, he was clearly mistreated.   Another factor was that his "agent", a slippery low-life, immediately placed him in another less desirable school, so that may have been a hidden factor. 

In adult night classes, I have tried to expose students to clips of speakers with different accents.  I encouraged them to listen to all accents and related the experience of one of my home students who worked for both Indian and German country heads of multi-nationals and of course had top level staff meetings in English.

I find it kinda funny / utterly pathetic how most ESL books now have 70+% listenings where the speaker is a non-native speaker. Pure politically correct BS.

'think about it - billions of kids , all over the world, delibertely being given a crapper education and taught crap useless english deliberately - for the sake of political correctness.  being taught to speak crap english deliberately. to prove that not all english speakers are white native speakers.

Possibly, it could have some tiny effect at giving them confidence but it is pathetic.

I cant even imagine if my Chinese language listenings were read by an african or whitey. such utter PC BS idiocy just doesnt fly outside the western world.

The hillarious thing is that it seems they actually get native speakers to affect a wonky foreign accent deliberately. PC insanity never ends in the west.

and no, i dont get paid to type correct engerlish so dont even bother mentionin it.

Thaiger :

I find it kinda funny / utterly pathetic how most ESL books now have 70+% listenings where the speaker is a non-native speaker. Pure politically correct BS.

'think about it - billions of kids , all over the world, delibertely being given a crapper education and taught crap useless english deliberately - for the sake of political correctness.  being taught to speak crap english deliberately. to prove that not all english speakers are white native speakers.

Possibly, it could have some tiny effect at giving them confidence but it is pathetic.

I cant even imagine if my Chinese language listenings were read by an african or whitey. such utter PC BS idiocy just doesnt fly outside the western world.

The hillarious thing is that it seems they actually get native speakers to affect a wonky foreign accent deliberately. PC insanity never ends in the west.

and no, i dont get paid to type correct engerlish so dont even bother mentionin it.

I think your position is based more on some type of political resentment than it is in reality.  I won't even touch your apparently self generated assertions about ESL books.  There are hundreds of book series out there.  How many have you screened?

Speakers of received pronunciation (the Queen's English) are a minority even in the UK.    In absolute numbers, there are more native English speakers in Pakistan than there are in Australia.  The countries of the Caribbean as a group have percentages of native speakers comparable to the UK, US, AU ad NZ.  This is the inevitable result of English becoming the new lingua franca.  As far as instructors in Vietnam, the ones that I encountered most often that should not have been were Europeans.

By the way Thaiger, there is some ambiguity about your country of origin.  Perchance were you denied employment because of your non-native speaking ability?  As for me I don't speak "engerlish." I speak "Murcan,"   :joking:

Solutions, headway, cutting edge , kids box etc, u name it.
at all levels

Note, please, that all text books made in the country where the learners are from NEVER use non-native accents......(no matter how dire those books r)

ive been teaching for 15 years. it's farcical. Imagine learning physics and u r taught a theory that was right 500 years ago.......or just plain wrong.

I cant really see any point from your example.  Do u think that people in Pakistan should learn with a wonky accent that helps them differ from standard english even more>?

perhaps we should just abandon standard english? make it a new creol of pakistani and african ? maybe the metric system should just be considered advisory , or a historical anamoly?

Im an english public school boy btw

and no, ive never been denied employment here lol. i would have to paint my face black or sth for that ...... just to bring the post back on point.

BTW - nothing against non-whites teaching, just hate the insiduous PCness that even creeps into textbooks that denigrates students chances.

THIGV :
Thaiger :

I find it kinda funny / utterly pathetic how most ESL books now have 70+% listenings where the speaker is a non-native speaker. Pure politically correct

I think your position is based more on some type of political resentment than it is in reality.

I have noticed the Cambridge text books go out their way to have a wide variety of ethnic faces, something that is meaningless in my little corner of Asia .. and probably yours.
However, every listening comprehension piece I've heard so far has been in nice, clear English devoid as so much as a regional accent, much less a foreign one.

Thaiger :

I cant really see any point from your example.  Do u think that people in Pakistan should learn with a wonky accent that helps them differ from standard english even more>?

perhaps we should just abandon standard english? make it a new creol of pakistani and african ? maybe the metric system should just be considered advisory , or a historical anamoly?

If you are an ESL teacher, I find it amusing that you don't seem to understand the difference between accent and proper English expression, vocabulary, and grammar.  Universities in the US are full of faculty who speak perfect English with an accent.  The same is true of the financial centers of Wall Street and City of London.  Next time you encounter a higher level Western educated person with an accent, try the exercise of mentally transcribing their words as they speak.  I expect that you will see that their English is just the same as yours.   I am even willing to concede that their accented English is often better than most Americans.   :sosad:  I know you won't brook any criticism on this, but I also am pretty sure that their spelling is also better.  :dumbom:

Now, given the choice, is it better that instructors in Vietnam speak with some type of "mainstream" accent?  Yes it may be, but that does not preclude listening exercises and exposure to different accents.

BTW: I am not sure why you dragged that in, but wasn't the metric system an innovation of Napoleonic France?  It is obviously better than what used to be called the British system, but the US economy proves the metric system is not absolutely necessary to success.

... or Thailand? I've lived and worked for years in Thailand! (And let me share, I've ,et a few guys who are not suitable to be teachers of English. One was from an African country and had a TOEIC score of way below 600. Another guy would be even lower IMHO, but he was from Sweden and somehow got some university to endorse him as "language specialist". Orthography, basic English conversation? Mmm.

Then there are the folks with fake degrees. Folks who were at universities can do certain tasks with ease. And then there is the age of some applicants. The passport says "21", the CV says "full degree plus years' experience".

when I recruited for schools in Thailand, I had wonderful candidates. Truly NES, real teachers who had taught back home or in high end countries like Hong Kong (China) at International schools. Willing to work  for 30,000 THB in deepest ISAAN. No, the school hired a 19 y.o. backpacker who came with a skate board. But hewy, he was 10,000 THB cheaper! (Then he decided to give each and every student the same grade. what a mess that was).

It's an adventure. Enjoy the ride!

KruChris :

.(Then he decided to give each and every student the same grade. what a mess that was).

At a business school of the Univrsity of Georgia in our good ol' USA, a perofessor stated in his course syllabi that if his students feel “unduly stressed” by grades given for any assessment, they can “email the instructor indicating what grade [they] think is appropriate, and it will be so changed with no explanation required."

Yes, unfortunately this view is also common in countries like Cambodia and Laos.
The sad thing about it is that, the parents who pay for top dollar, do not speak english either and do not know any better.

I have seen a case where a German person was hired to teach english and his level of english was quite literally not much better than his students. When i heard his accent and grammar I thought to myself, these students don't have a chance in hell.

But unfortunately because he is white, he is qualified. Despite the fact that I (am asian looking), been in Australia since 3 years old and hold a Masters degree that requires a high level command of english.

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