Careless about Environment and The Nature are sad things in Indonesia

This is backstreet Bukit Bintang early morning. It's pretty awful. But then I've seen many pasar in Bali and allover Indoensia looking as bad if not worse. Just got to wait for the trash collectors to take it away and then it looks clean again 

I've only been to KL once and once was enough.  No offense to KL, as my opinion of Singapore is even worse, and it's been necessary for me to go there on too many occasions.  However, none of my opinions of those two cities have anything to do with garbage, noise pollution or “white trash.” 

If there is anything worthwhile to glean from this thread, it's just a few things:

-Not all of Indonesia is a garbage pit.

-Indonesia has been, and still is making great progress regarding its cleanliness and environmental issues.

-Indonesia is not a third world country overwhelmingly populated by ignorant, uneducated and uncivilized folks in spite of what other ignorant and uneducated folks might think. 

-It's always preferred to comment about a particular place when that comment comes from knowledgeable, experienced, and unbiased folks who are actually living in that place.

“But as a British person I mandi twice a day and my Indonesian wife and our kids mandi twice a day too.”

Clearly, your Indonesian wife has taught you well!   


Ed for spelling

Ubudian wrote:

I've only been to KL once and once was enough.  No offense to KL, as my opinion of Singapore is even worse, and it's been necessary for me to go there on too many occasions.  However, none of my opinions of those two cities have anything to do with garbage, noise pollution or “white trash.” 

If there is anything worthwhile to glean from this thread, it's just a few things:

-Not all of Indonesia is a garbage pit.

-Indonesia has been, and still is making great progress regarding its cleanliness and environmental issues.

-Indonesia is not a third world country overwhelmingly populated by ignorant, uneducated and uncivilized folks in spite of what other ignorant and uneducated folks might think. 

-It's always preferred to comment about a particular place when that comment comes from knowledgeable, experienced, and unbiased folks who are actually living in that place.

“But as a British person I mandi twice a day and my Indonesian wife and our kids mandi twice a day too.”

Clearly, your Indonesian wife has taught you well!   


Ed for spelling

Do you always have to be so cheeky? What with you being an American who thought that Bali was the only place in the world where people bathe twice, you should think twice about what you say

But agree with KL, I don't like it. It's only good for buying property. Also disagree that any part of Indonesia is a garbage pit. Indonesia is just the same as many other Asian countries.

Let's just all hope that Indonesia can become cleaner than it already is.

“Do you always have to be so cheeky?”

With you, absolutely yes, and also occasionally with others, so please don't feel too much like you're special.   

Above all, let's invite the author of this thread for her to give her own response & opinion

Hi Enny where are you... ?

Ileenavan wrote:

Hi Enny where are you... ?

Yes Enny, where are you?

This re-cycling collection point is at one of our village temples where I live.

http://www.homeinbali.com/forum/uploads … _78550.jpg

You can see these spouting up all over Bali these days, as “Bali Clean and Green” is a serious endeavor. 

In addition, one can find a list of beach clean up days periodically published in The Bali Advertiser.  These events are organized so that expats can pitch in and be part of the solution, as opposed to being part of the problem.   

Please note that the link above will be unavailable on March 31 in observance of Nyepi.

Enny, please come here..

Ileenavan wrote:

Enny, please come here..

Enny is running away from garbage of all sorts including trash talk, and so I am.
Good bye.

John C. wrote:

Ileenavan wrote:

Enny, please come here..

Enny is running away from garbage of all sorts including trash talk, and so I am.
Good bye.

If she's run away, so do I.
Adios amigos.. Aufwiedersehen!!!

About your comment and opinion below, all of us in here don't need it! What all of us in here need are the author of this thread to give her own response.

Based on Enny's original post, I'm betting that she got wiser about Belgium.  Or, as one Belgium native describes Brussels:

“They keep their garbage on the streets without any containers. This causes serious filth on the street and it's really sad for tourists to have to see this in the city center while walking through otherwise lovely cobblestone streets. On more than one occasion, I have been out walking in the morning to see that probably drunk people tore open the trash bags to throw it all over the street, even in Grand Place. Not to mention that with already narrow sidewalks, it sucks walking in the evening when everyone puts their trash out and to have to navigate through endless bags of trash! The smell is not so enticing either. Let's get trash bins Brussels!”

http://brusselsandbeyond.wordpress.com/ … st-things/

Scroll down to #3: No Garbage Containers.

Then again, maybe you two think Belgium is an uncivilized third world country too!   

Hi all,

Some posts have been removed again.
If we go off topic again we'll take it as everything has been said on the subject and consider maybe close the thread.

Thanks
Armand
Expat.com Team

Closing this string sounds like an excellent idea to me Armand.   

That's right. No more criticism of the cesspit that is Kuta/Legian!

I think that each part of Indonesia has it's own particular beauty as well as it's ugly or dirty side. Yogyakarta has some amazing natural beauty and some of the most wonderful temples in the world as well as a thriving handicraft culture. Bali has it's wonderful surfing beaches and it's famous nightlife and pubs as well as a thriving handicraft business, Jakarta has Ancol for it's seafood and entertainment and Puncak with cool temperatures and Taman Safari as well some nice shopping malls. Bandung has it's factory outlets, cool climate and attractive colonial bungalows as well as some wonderful natural beauty in the surrounding highlands.

But in most of these places I do see loads of rubbish in the rivers. The garbage we see in the markets and main streets does tend to get cleaned up every morning. In anycase, for me, Indonesia continues to be one of the most beautiful countries in Southeast Asia.

Most of Indonesia was graced with spectacular natural beauty - unfortunately there is little to no local interest in maintaining this beauty.

So much has been destroyed since my first visit to this wonderful country in 1982.

Material wealth has increased in leaps and bounds since that year. Has personal happiness increased though. The western style "Rat Race" is infecting ever larger layers of society and unchecked consumerism is gutting the remaining charm.

As such I await the openness to be brought by Indonesia's open borders to ASEAN in 2015 with a mixture of anticipation and worry.

“Bali has it's wonderful surfing beaches and it's famous nightlife and pubs as well as a thriving handicraft business.”

Those are the last three things that would cross my mind when thinking of Bali.

Bali is best known for breathtaking landscapes of terraced sawahs, mountains and river gorges, endless beautiful temples, a rich and colorful culture, the arts…both performing and applied, and some of the warmest folks on the planet earth. 

Finally I am getting the many thousands upon thousands of photos I've taken over the past 15+ years living here in some sort of order.  I'll be posting some of them in the Bali photo section as I have always believed that a picture is worth a thousand words.

Hello dear all gentleman that put comments in my post, thank you very much for all the responses I really appreciate all of your comments. But i will appreciate more if you all dear gentleman can see this rubbish issue without judging people in my country. As i said before, it is lack of education, information, and the government policy in handling this issue that lead to careless attitude which continue from neighborhood to other neighborhood, from one generation to the next generation, etc in my country. Can you gentleman imagine, in any country that you mention or think as first or second world country if there is a lot of poverty, corruption, no strict rule about the rubbish, not enough education and information about how to manage the wastes etc, i don't think that will goes well either.

I don't agree that in my country the people are bad. Some people in touristic industry or run the business there maybe are not the best people in Indonesia because many of them now are just become selfish and money grubber because of competitive life, but most of people in Indonesia are actually innocent. I traveled to some countries, and after compared, i still found people from my country are the best. We are generally friendly and nice. We are not introvert as people generally from some countries (i don't want to mention, but let you gentleman think about the example of those countries), the kids play outside, when we smile and say how are you, we really mean it, and waiting for the answer. We are talking to the neighbors, and normally became like family to each other even though we didn't know each other before. Yes, Bali is really touristic, and many people there for many reason are not trustable.

By the way, i would like to appeal to all gentleman specially who live in my country, to keep the good habit, education, information, that you had from your original country, and give at least the good example which hopefully will lead to become good impact and change to the neighborhood in my country.

For your information: I am not run away because there is no reason really for me to run away, LOL. I am confident with all that i wrote here, and even though i live in other Country, i still care and proud a lot about Indonesia, where i am from.

Well said Enny!

Well said Enny!   

Hello everyone..

Very interesting topic and lets all be honest with each other. I have been in Indonesia for the last 7 years and only reason I am here is for my family as it is too cold for my wife back home in Canada because her health is not so good in the cold  and needs to be here for the weather as she is Indonesia and easiest for us and our child.

Yes and don't listen to anyone that tries to tell you that this country isn't a 3rd world country because it is and has serious problems with environment and government at all levels especially corruption and lack of education.

Don't let anyone blow wind your way trying to tell you any different but I do love the people. They are very friendly and kind people that would give to you even if they had nothing to give.

It may have become slightly better in both areas over the last few years but nowhere were it needs to be compared to what could have and should have been accomplished with all the funding that the west has given for funding projects to achieve these goals and don't give me the bull that they are part of the G-20...who cares..its still a 3rd world country.

The government and people still have a responsibility for the environment and what happens over their watch and time on this planet.

That being said....the majority of responsibility lies on the government as they do not want to spend the money on educating the people because if they start to fix some of the issues here the funding will stop from the west and if the problem gets fixed means less money in the wrong persons pockets.

Realistically speaking how many brain cells does it take to realize that throwing rubbish on the street and rivers is damaging the environment and just simply ugly. It all starts with teaching your own kids that its wrong. That's what my parents did for me and what I do for my child. She knows better and can wait a minute or 2 until we can find a garbage can.

Truthfully I may sound that I don't appreciate and love the people and the country but I really do this has been my home for the last 7 years and this is why it upsets me so much when someone comes on here and tries to tell everyone that the problems here is really better than it is. Who do you think you are helping??? Surely not the people by trying to save their face. My wife is an Indonesian and feels the same way.....(DISAPPOINTED)

They also realize there is a problem but not willing to do anything about it as simple as putting a few signs up and a garbage can out.

You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink.

A Tale of Two Cities 2014



Mike's photo


Brazilian comparison to photo in MikeWallace77's reply above

As a Canadian who was raised to care about the environment since childhood and had a government that clearly also cared about it too, I am extremely saddened to see that in a world where we have the technology and resources to put men on the moon, send remotely operated vehicles exploring the deepest parts of our oceans and probes to outer-most reaches of our solar system we can't figure out HOW TO KEEP OUR OWN HOUSE CLEAN.

I found our former member MikeWallace77's photo quite revealing and it serves to point out that the problem of littering, pollution and recycling of garbage is really common to developing nations globally.

Clearly lack of government investment in education is part of the problem, people in these countries are not taught to see the harm they do to the environment and also not taught to see the harm they are also doing to the ECONOMY, both their local economy and family economy as well. They should be taught to think of recyclable garbage as not only a source of income, but also a means of avoiding a drain on the local economy as well.

I enjoyed Baliguy's comments which reflect a cultural attitude instilled in Canadians from early on. He's bang on.

Government is also to blame in the sense that they aren't tough enough on the problem, especially when it comes to big business and letting them do as they please, rather than what the government wants them to do. Multi-national companies in the soft drink and beverage industry come into a country and make their own rules essentially. Do governments mandate strict deposit/return programs for drink containers; not a bloody chance because that might make big business angry even though it clearly is the right thing to do. One need only look at the litter and see just how much of it is made up of PET bottles, plastic mesh used to secure drink cans, and other things that just won't ever degrade.

Sad to say Indonesia is not alone in this problem, not by a long shot! It's probably far worse here in Brazil. But I will say one thing, that people in this forum who are simply closing their eyes to the problem or minimizing it by saying, "well, it's better than it used to be" are not helping in the least. Like the old saying goes, "If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem." We have to lose this collective "it's better than it used to be" attitude and replace it with a "it's the best we possibly can make it" attitude.

Regardless of where we live, we all share the same planet and we share the same responsability for passing it along to our children in at least as good a condition as we found it. Some nations and even some of us do not take that responsibility nearly as seriously as others.

It all starts at home, teach your kids not to litter. They learn quickly! Watch your own habits more closely, think twice before you drop that drink cup or bottle in the street rather than hold onto it until you reach a garbage receptacle. Push your municipal government to start selective garbage pickups and recycling programs. Reduce, re-use and recycle!

We should ALL be ashamed of sights like the two photos show in this thread. We should all know better, but clearly don't. I don't know if Indonesia is a "Third World Country" or not, certainly Brazil is not... BUT THEY BOTH CLEARLY HAVE THIRD WORLD MENTALITIES and are both burying themselves under mountains of garbage.

Cheers,
William James Woodward, EB Experts Team

It's a funny thing about the Balinese and their culture.  The fact is, it's been on going in its present state since the Majapahit Dynasty, (14th century) and for thousands of years before that with the Bali Aga.  Odd, isn't it, how they ever managed to survive without us?  How did they ever do that?

WJ, we could play the game of a tale of two cities by posting or linking to photos from all over the world with disgusting photos of garbage on the streets in the slums, or in controlled land fills, until the cows home...or even longer.  That would serve no purpose, as it is an issue most anywhere with dense populations. 

Baliguy, with all due respect, we only have your word that you are married to an Indonesian and presumably living in Bali, apparently for the past 7 years.  Since I very rarely hear such a degree of negativity from any expat who has been living a long while on Bali, and thus has seen all the improvements on Bali during those years, I generally conclude that there is something else behind that negativity. 

You write, "the government and people still have a responsibility for the environment and what happens over their watch and time on this planet."  That's true, and by living here in Bali, that includes you.  It's really not such a difficult concept to grasp...to stop complaining about the problem, and strive to become part of the solution.  Ever taken part in a beach clean up with the locals, or a clean up at a temple after a ceremony? 

You also write, "it upsets me so much when someone comes on here and tries to tell everyone that the problems here is really better than it is."  Really?  Well, I could gather up 10 expats who have been living here as long or longer than myself in the Ubud area and meet you at The Fly Café or Naught Nuris's and guess what?...they would say the same as I have written on this thread...that being that the situation in Bali is far better than it used to be, and that things continue to improve.  They would also highly support my suggestion that you become part of the solution and not simply a complainer.   

You also write, "my wife is an Indonesian and feels the same way.....(DISAPPOINTED)" 

My wife is also Indonesian, Balinese specifically, and neither she or her very family feel disappointed at all, in fact, quite the opposite.  Part of a very long generation of Balinese, she would be very quick to remind you that if you think the grass is greener elsewhere, or that the rice tastes sweeter elsewhere, then either get busy contributing to the solutions, or move elsewhere.  This is their island, and they don't need us one single bit.

And for the record, one more time, Indonesia is NOT a third world country...period.

I'll leave you with these lovely photos take in Canada.  Show them to your Indonesian wife and lets see what term she comes up with. 

http://cwf-fcf.org/en/discover-wildlife … -talk.htmlhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/jimbob_malone/3939595606/

And this is particularly interesting, note in particular the comment:

"Canada throws away more garbage per capita than any other country in the developed world." 

http://www.canadianunderwriter.ca/news/ … &er=NA

Ubudian, thanks for proving my points.... 1. the "it's better than it was before" attitude that makes this problem so difficult to deal with because people minimize the problem so greatly. 2. The old saying, "If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem."

Ignorance is truly bliss. You can go on saying that nobody has the right to "complain" about Bali or any other country than those who actually live there, and maybe that extremely narrow minded concept might actually work (but only if Bali, or whatever other place wasn't physically connected to the rest of this planet that we ALL live on). So go on painting Bali and Indonesia as this idyllic "Tropical Paradise" that you would have everyone believe it to be, if that suits you. I understand that in Australia ostriches bury their heads in the sand.

With regard to how the folks in Bali, or Brazil, or Shangri-la ever got along without us, and without burying themselves under mountains of garbage... it's probably more due to the fact that they weren't exposed to all the unnecessary junk that we've invented, programmed for obsolescence in the first place, and are so want to throw in the garbage heap, than it is through skilled management of their civilizations.

Sorry, I don't know how anybody in their right mind can justify just throwing garbage about willy-nilly not in New York City and not in Ubud, sorry it's just plain wrong. You may be way out there in the South Pacific separated from me here in Southern Brazil, but your garbage will eventually effect me, and mine sure as heck is eventually going to effect you in some way. And yes I have as much right to complain about yours as you have about mine.

Sorry, with regard to Canada throwing out more garbage than any other country in the world, there couldn't be anything more absurd than such a statement, except maybe that somebody would actually believe it. The United States of America firmly holds that title and always will. Canada has a total population of 30 million, how is it humanly possible for 30 million people to generate more garbage than the population of the USA with 318 million, or China with nearly 1.5 billion, or Indonesia with 252 million inhabitants........ please don't make me laugh!

BTW, it is a very skewed article and "so-called report" that completely ignores the fact that the vast majority of the volume per-capita of domestic garbage in Canada nowadays is in fact organic waste which decomposes and actually enriches the soil, it also ignores the fact that most Canadian cities have selective garbage collection (blue box) programs and forced recycling programs. All Canadian provinces have deposit/refund programs for beverage containers so they aren't as likely to make up part of that non-organic garbage. Oh, and where is Indonesia on that list???? I must be needing new specs, didn't even see Indonesia ranked there anywhere. What is it they say about people in glass houses??????

Pardon me for asking WJ, but have you ever even been to Ubud, Bali, and if so, when? 

With all due respect, you live in Brazil, so how can you be commenting with such authority about Ubud, Bali?

And, just what makes you think the local people here simply go "throwing garbage about willy-nilly?"  I assure you, they don't.  I've been living with them 24/7 for almost 16 years, and I submit to you that I am in a much better position to authoritatively speak on this topic than you.  And you should have no problem accepting that. 

Moreover, if you knew anything at all about Ubud, (and elsewhere in Bali), you would know that everyone sweeps their compounds and shops clean twice a day, once in the very early morning, and once again in the late afternoon.  Sidewalks in front of shops and compounds are included in this daily ritual.

You would also know that the Balinese are among the most eco-friendly and "naturally green" people to be found on this planet.  Just for a few examples, they don't eat with knives, forks and spoons on plastic or ceramic dishes, rather they eat from palm leaves using the fingers of their right hand.  That means no dishes to waste water cleaning.  They don't use clothes driers either, rather they hang their clean laundry, (most often hand washed) on racks to dry in the sun.  They don't use 100 watt light bulbs, in fact it's very hard to find a light bulb here which is greater than 30 watts, as they are careful with their electricity usage.   

You write,

"Sorry, with regard to Canada throwing out more garbage than any other country in the world, there couldn't be anything more absurd than such a statement, except maybe that somebody would actually believe it."

If you disagree, then I suggest you take that up with the editorial staff of Canadian Underwriters which is a reliable publication. 

Fine, you are one of the designated experts for Brazil, but you are no expert when it comes to Bali, or anywhere in Indonesia that I can see thus far. 

Sir, speak of what you know, and let others who know of what they speak do likewise.

In exactly the the same way you feel you can comment on Canada.... or does your right to comment on Canada even if you've ever been there or not override mine to comment on Bali and Indonesia.

Garbage is garbage anywhere in the world, our responsibility to not destroy our world with it is the same all over the world. Please stop mixing apples and oranges. I know you personally feel (like native Indonesians) that foreigners have absolutely no right to comment on anything, unless it is only glowing praise, but you're absolutely wrong in that dinosaur attitude.

Bali, love it or leave it.......... NOT EVEN ON YOUR BEST DAY UBUDIAN

In compliance with the demand of certain members here I will make the following public statement:

Bali  and  Indonesia are pure heaven on earth, there never has been and never will be anything at all wrong with either.

Happy down there in paradise now????

Where the heck is that "fingers crossed behind my back" icon anyway????

"In exactly the the same way you feel you can comment on Canada.... or does your right to comment on Canada even if you've ever been there or not override mine to comment on Bali and Indonesia."

I DID NOT comment about Canada!  I merely quoted from a Canadian publication and provided a direct link to the source! 

"Bali, love it or leave it"....ABSOLUTELY, and my favorite tee shirts are not printed, Eat, Pray, Love, but rather, Eat, Pay, Leave.

Maybe you ought to visit us one day and form your own conclusions based on first hand observations.

And for certain, just to get the record straight, (as I really don't appreciate words being put into my mouth), I never once refer to Bali or Indonesia on this thread, or any other thread, as paradise, or pure heaven on earth.  If you were even remotely fair and objective with your comments you would know that I always acknowledge that we have problems, and that there is room for improvement.

So please, whatever your personal problems are regarding Indonesia, Bali, or myself...try keeping them to yourself.

Fair enough?

I have no problem whatsoever with you, Bali or Indonesia. Probably never will.

What I do have a very big problem with is how some people in Canada, Brazil, Indonesia and even Bali treat this earth with such total disregard, doing everything in their power to destroy it, when doing exactly the opposite costs so little. Defending that makes no sense.

No further comment necessary!

Nobody is defending how some folks treat this earth with such total disregard, doing everything in their power to destroy it least of all, me.

Are we squared away now?

This thread looks funny Comparing one Place to other itself is Stupidity or whatever you call yourself You are in Bali,have a drink,Surf,Party & have fun Instead of criticising or trying to be a so called Philosopher If you are so damm concerned clean it as much as you can & guide ppl instead of comparing each place to other LoL Grow up
Cheers

To Mr Pompas Ubudian:

#1 I was just making a comment that the problem is bigger than you want people to believe and that is not right....

#2 Yes my wife is Indonesian and have lived in many places in Indonesia such as Batam, Surabaya and Bali and truth the villages are the just as bad. Give it Java probly has the biggest problem.

#3 Such a simple mind to state that this is their island it is all of Indonesians island as it is one country the last I heard. They are intitled to live anywhere they want and yes my ID and wifes ID are from here. Some of our best friends are Balinese and feel the same and have had many conversations with them about these issues as they are also looking for solutions and a change of mind for their people.

#4 Thanks for the pics but I guess you are not familiar with ocean currents and that the rubbish on the pacific coast comes from Asia and who knows might be Alaska as far as it looks to me. And the second picture about the landfill at least its in a landfill not on the street or in the rivers.

#5 Before living in Indonesia I lived in China for 5 years and travelled all over Asia the problem is no better. At least the street cleaners are out in the morning at 6 am sweeping the streets and cleaning them in China.

#6 You have been here 24/7 well maybe get on a plane and take a holiday and check out the rest of the world instead of living in your little bubble.

#7 Have I helped with a beach clean up no never but I also don't contribute to throwing trash on the beach but I will pick up something and put it in the garbage on the way off the beach. I have contributed to helping clean the neighborhood streets up on Sundays and getting in the sewage gods with my own hands to clean them out to stop dengue breakouts.
I do contribute by teaching my kid and her friends to put things in the trash and volunteer here in Sanur at orphanage teaching them. Teach them about recycling and environment. So the solution starts with each one of us just not sitting on the computer in a forum and having a pissing contest in who is correct.
I have organized the kids in my area to do a massive garbage collection off the streets in my area. So please becareful what you says its hurtful and you don't understand who I am and how I love these people and this country as much as you do and am trying to help in my own way but cant just hide the problem. It needs to be discussed in a real way not just shuffled under the carpet.

#8 I hate it that you say that I am negative. I am only speaking the truth and if you cant handle the truth SUCKS TO BE YOU...I have as much right to be here and have an opinion just like you as my Kitap is the same as yours.

#9 There is no drinkable water in Indonesia there is only one place that I know of in Indonesia that the water is up to WHO standards and actually above standards that is in Batam because the British built the water system there.

Their is no doubt that Bali is a beautiful place but there is some real issues that need to be dealt with in order to keep it beautiful. That is what I am stating so if you want to throw stones maybe get off your but and volunteer with one of the many programs in the schools that would love to have a foreigner come in and teach them about the environment and the damage that we as humanity are creating with our greed and laziness. Not only in Indonesia but around the world.

I would be more than happy to sit with you and others to see if there is some kind of program that we could collectively put together to be part of the solution. I would even take a day trip with the family to Ubud so the little one could go and enjoy the monkey park.

I can't comment on Bali, mostly because I've never been there.
I can comment on Central Java and Jakarta area - the former being a bit messy, the latter being a dump.
Of course, that isn't all of Jakarta, the business district, along with other important areas, are kept reasonably clean; the rest is not great.
People just toss their rubbish out of car windows or whatever, with no care about the state of their city.
Lombok was a different matter. The roads were pretty good and there was little rubbish to be seen in the areas I visited. Sadly, I didn't spend enough time there to really explore, so that's just an overview.

The question for the posters above is; is Bali closer in type to Lombok or Jakarta?

MikeWallace77 wrote:

This is backstreet Bukit Bintang early morning. It's pretty awful. But then I've seen many pasar in Bali and allover Indoensia looking as bad if not worse. Just got to wait for the trash collectors to take it away and then it looks clean again 

http://www.imagehostplus.com/v2/usr/2460/DSC_0112b.jpg

That looks like the little road next to Jalan Alor; if it is, I've walked down there a couple of times.
I've seen easily as bad in some parts of Jakarta.

I see two of our esteemed recent contributors to this thread have had the dubious pleasure of making the literary acquaintance of our resident curmudgeon; Roy from the Hills!

Please allow me to summarize, what I regard as, the subliminal message that goes through many -but not all-contributors to the Indonesian forum on this blog.

Indonesia is my home and I point blank refuse to agree to the fourth level of coming to terms with residence here: dogged acceptance of the ways things are here.

Tidak setuju!

As a previous member noted, and I paraphrase: "As foreigners living here, employed or not, we all have right to comment". Still have the right I should say, depending on the conclusion of this week's events.

Of course, depending on available time and opportunity, one should try to do one's utmost to improve things where one can, by word or deed. However, one should not look sight of the fact that very often one's effort may be wasted if the spark does not jump across to those for which this type of effort is expended.

As a long-term world traveler in countries in different stages of development or non-development and former resident of mainly first world countries. I have  definite experience of former 2nd world countries -look it up if you are too young to know what they were. The difference between these "worlds" in the aggregate -mind you- are the relative mindsets. With gross generalization (maybe) I would like to say that a one of the defining factors of a modern mindset as now is common accepted in developed nations is a common interest in the environment in all demographics. This is practically entirely lacking in Indonesia. Again in practically all demographics. Regardless of those occasional weekend articles in Jakarta Post or Jakarta Globe and/or those minute pockets of often westernized locals who have gained self-insight through education, job, marriage or living experience overseas.

Again, I humbly request other expatriates to share their views on this -and I really mean this - so bountiful country with great potential in human and natural resources...

Dr Frankenstein where is your Igor? I haven't seen him on the thread lately...

This is practically entirely lacking in Indonesia.

With the exception of the high end shopping malls, the bits of Lombok (sadly not much) I saw, and few other places (The odd estate on a clean up drive), that is probably true.
It may be untrue in places I have yet to visit, I'll let you know if I find such a place.

As for Bali, still can't offer intelligent comment; mostly because I've never been.

There is a serious lack of discipline in much of Indonesia, commonly showing itself when you see rubbish tossed from a car window, and a terrible lack of forward thinking.
The latter being evident when you see all the motorcyclists, sans raincoats, hiding under bridges in rainy season.
Dudes, it rains every day, get real and think about it before you set off.

Of course, that also translates to rubbish tossed into the rivers; no one thinking as to where it might end up and not a single thought to the flooding problems it'll cause.

However, it makes great photos for me, and I live up a hill.