Work Permit without an Employer?

the immigration rules are diff

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

I know I should be googling this myself (and I will when I have some free time) but do you know if the application for a Work Permit requires you to CURRENTLY have an employer?

Wouldn't it be a catch-22 if a person is employer-less (let's say for example a tourist or a backpacker) and is applying with an employer who is requiring that person to have a WP already?

I thought "work permit" means you must have an employer to work for (at least in Vietnamese "Giấy phép lao động". Not quite sure I understand your questions correctly but:

(i) the application for a work permit request you have a labour contract with the employer who will responsible for your work in Vietnam (legally) and will be act as "guarantor" before State agencies in order for granting you a work permit. Meaning, you must currently have an employer in order to get work permit.

(ii) if an employee is applying for a job, why on earth the employer requests such employee to have a "current work permit"?!?

aibiet150204 wrote:

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

I know I should be googling this myself (and I will when I have some free time) but do you know if the application for a Work Permit requires you to CURRENTLY have an employer?

Wouldn't it be a catch-22 if a person is employer-less (let's say for example a tourist or a backpacker) and is applying with an employer who is requiring that person to have a WP already?

I thought "work permit" means you must have an employer to work for (at least in Vietnamese "Giấy phép lao động". Not quite sure I understand your questions correctly but:

(i) the application for a work permit request you have a labour contract with the employer who will responsible for your work in Vietnam (legally) and will be act as "guarantor" before State agencies in order for granting you a work permit. Meaning, you must currently have an employer in order to get work permit.

(ii) if an employee is applying for a job, why on earth the employer requests such employee to have a "current work permit"?!?

Thanks for the quick reply.  I had thought it was a catch-22 situation.

Just cruising by, I got confused by the title of the work permit: Giay Phep Lao Dong = "paper permission labor", which I read to imply that you must get the permit to work, as opposed to proof of working status.

Giay Phep, Two more words on the vocabulary list. Cam on Aybiet!

lirelou wrote:

Just cruising by, I got confused by the title of the work permit: Giay Phep Lao Dong = "paper permission labor", which I read to imply that you must get the permit to work, as opposed to proof of working status.

Giay Phep, Two more words on the vocabulary list. Cam on Aybiet!

Yah! Giấy Phép = certificate / licence (license) / permit (literal translation)... => so you have some words like: business registration certificate / investment licence / work permit... I think just the way of translation and using words caused by "different languages" from the state agencies so far

By the way, aybiet is not the correct Vietnamese - aibiet is my name  - in Vietnamese, you have a lot of words can use "y" or "i" with the same meaning, such as: "quý"/"quí" (esteem), "bác sỹ"/"bác sĩ" (doctor), "ca sĩ" (singer) - besides, there a lot of words, if you use "y"/"i", it is wrong or does not have meaning, for example: "ngại" (hesitate - cannot "ngạy") - "lạy" (pray) while "lại" (again). Yah! I know Vietnamese is complicated... Just like, Vietnamese people

How much would the cost of a 'work permit' be.
To either the employer, or employee?
thanks.

bluecheer wrote:

How much would the cost of a 'work permit' be.
To either the employer, or employee?
thanks.

The official fees: new issuance of WP: VND 400k (about $20), re-issuance: VND 300k (about $15), extension: 200k (about $10). Either employee or employer can agree who will pay, but in fact, the fees should be paid by the employer... They need employee to feed their bank account

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

catch-22 situation.

What is "catch-22"? Does it mean this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_(logic)

Yes that's correct.
Either decision that is made gives him a problem.
'Crazy' and he can't fly, or 'Sane' and he can fly.
Either way it gives him a problem. Catch-22.

A Catc22 situation: You see an advert in the paper for translators, and you are well qualified in Jurutungu-ese. You apply for the job. They accept you but state that you must have a work permit. You go to the Labor Office and file papers for a work permit. They explain that they can only issue work permits for people who already have jobs, unless you are a Jurutungu-ese citizen, in which case you are entitled to a work permit. You explain that you have a job, but you haven't started yet because you don't yet have the permit. They explain that you can't get the permit because you were not employed before being accepted for the position. You are caught up in a "Catch 22".

aibiet150204 wrote:

lirelou wrote:

Just cruising by, I got confused by the title of the work permit: Giay Phep Lao Dong = "paper permission labor", which I read to imply that you must get the permit to work, as opposed to proof of working status.

Giay Phep, Two more words on the vocabulary list. Cam on Aybiet!

Yah! Giấy Phép = certificate / licence (license) / permit (literal translation)... => so you have some words like: business registration certificate / investment licence / work permit... I think just the way of translation and using words caused by "different languages" from the state agencies so far

By the way, aybiet is not the correct Vietnamese - aibiet is my name  - in Vietnamese, you have a lot of words can use "y" or "i" with the same meaning, such as: "quý"/"quí" (esteem), "bác sỹ"/"bác sĩ" (doctor), "ca sĩ" (singer) - besides, there a lot of words, if you use "y"/"i", it is wrong or does not have meaning, for example: "ngại" (hesitate - cannot "ngạy") - "lạy" (pray) while "lại" (again). Yah! I know Vietnamese is complicated... Just like, Vietnamese people

Yah and I noticed when that when one of anything is sufficient to convey a meaning, Vietnamese people have this mentality of "well, if one is good, then TWO OR MORE must be super great! Right?




Right?

Ever seen a student's Powerpoint presentation?

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

aibiet150204 wrote:

lirelou wrote:

Just cruising by, I got confused by the title of the work permit: Giay Phep Lao Dong = "paper permission labor", which I read to imply that you must get the permit to work, as opposed to proof of working status.

Giay Phep, Two more words on the vocabulary list. Cam on Aybiet!

Yah! Giấy Phép = certificate / licence (license) / permit (literal translation)... => so you have some words like: business registration certificate / investment licence / work permit... I think just the way of translation and using words caused by "different languages" from the state agencies so far

By the way, aybiet is not the correct Vietnamese - aibiet is my name  - in Vietnamese, you have a lot of words can use "y" or "i" with the same meaning, such as: "quý"/"quí" (esteem), "bác sỹ"/"bác sĩ" (doctor), "ca sĩ" (singer) - besides, there a lot of words, if you use "y"/"i", it is wrong or does not have meaning, for example: "ngại" (hesitate - cannot "ngạy") - "lạy" (pray) while "lại" (again). Yah! I know Vietnamese is complicated... Just like, Vietnamese people

Yah and I noticed when that when one of anything is sufficient to convey a meaning, Vietnamese people have this mentality of "well, if one is good, then TWO OR MORE must be super great! Right?




Right?

Ever seen a student's Powerpoint presentation?

không hiểu???

I visited two agents today in Vũng Tàu.  Both told me that you need some form of documentation showing the employer will sponsor an employee..i.e. a work contract, letter of hire on company letterhead and red stamps.  Then they can do it.

I asked if it can be done without an employer since I'm caught in a catch-22 situation with potential employers who don't want to get a WP - they just want to hire someone who already has a WP.  The first said no, but the second said he could do it.  His company would sponsor me..... for $1,500.

I was like....ssshheeeit.  Even if I did get a job paying $500 a month, that's equivalent to 3 months salary.  I think I'll just keep going to try to find an employer who will do the WP paperwork and save me 90 days of hard labor.

Dudes,

Are you that consumed with Vietnam and its language???  All you have to do is look at your own country's immigration and labor laws, especially those from the US.

Employers must get special permits to hire foreign workers, foreign workers must obtain work permits to work in a foreign land, and tourists who want to work in the place that they are touring must convert their visa statuses...  Very similar processes and requirements, gang. 

THD, you have lots of time to burn, don't you?

Wild_1 wrote:

Dudes,

Are you that consumed with Vietnam and its language???  All you have to do is look at your own country's immigration and labor laws, especially those from the US.

Employers must get special permits to hire foreign workers, foreign workers must obtain work permits to work in a foreign land, and tourists who want to work in the place that they are touring must convert their visa statuses...  Very similar processes and requirements, gang. 

THD, you have lots of time to burn, don't you?

I do.  I am actually looking for something to keep me occupied so hence the post looking for a work permit information.  There was a job up North that I applied for but they came back and told me that I needed a work permit to qualify.  To which I shot back that it's a catch-22 and I can get a WP after they hire me.

Previous to the new policy that took effect November 1, things were much easier with work permits.  Now there seems to be a push for enforcing existing laws on the books so it's harder to get a work permit now without a company to sponsor you.

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

Wild_1 wrote:

Dudes,

Are you that consumed with Vietnam and its language???  All you have to do is look at your own country's immigration and labor laws, especially those from the US.

Employers must get special permits to hire foreign workers, foreign workers must obtain work permits to work in a foreign land, and tourists who want to work in the place that they are touring must convert their visa statuses...  Very similar processes and requirements, gang. 

THD, you have lots of time to burn, don't you?

I do.  I am actually looking for something to keep me occupied so hence the post looking for a work permit information.  There was a job up North that I applied for but they came back and told me that I needed a work permit to qualify.  To which I shot back that it's a catch-22 and I can get a WP after they hire me.

Previous to the new policy that took effect November 1, things were much easier with work permits.  Now there seems to be a push for enforcing existing laws on the books so it's harder to get a work permit now without a company to sponsor you.

I trust you have done a lot of searches and understand well that the work permit is issued based on the labour contract with the employer who is responsible for your works in Vietnam. Meaning, the employer who you will work for will take responsibility to get you the work permit. And you may have noticed that it is "abnormal" when the employer turn back to you and say that you must have a current work permit to qualify the position?!? What's that kind of employer?!? Or they just dont have HR dept? Or their HR dept havent dealt with any foreign candidate?!? Or they just dont understand? Maybe you should explain to them the situation then?!?

THD,
I believe that there is a market for Asians that speak English to work as teachers. Granted there are a lot that want that white face, but I believe they are the smaller ones. The company I work for they do all the paperwork for the work permit. It is a good way to act productive.

Aibiet,

Yes, there are steps that companies (anywhere) must undertake before they can legitimately hire foreign employees.  Then, in the case of Vietnam, there must be incentives offered to attract prospects.  Paying your own ways and getting your own work permits, as I remember, are not among them.

THD,

I think that was the company's nice way of telling you to move on...  Go play your football.

Wild_1 wrote:

Aibiet,

Yes, there are steps that companies (anywhere) must undertake before they can legitimately hire foreign employees.  Then, in the case of Vietnam, there must be incentives offered to attract prospects.  Paying your own ways and getting your own work permits, as I remember, are not among them.

THD,

I think that was the company's nice way of telling you to move on...  Go play your football.

Wild_1: hey, I have an idea! Why dont you just bring Tran Hung Dao about 100 football as an investment. And Tran Hung Dao can open a school teaching English and football on the beaches. Opening an LLC with 2 members and Tran Hung Dao will become the general director, then you guys do not need to worry about the work permit (as you will be exempted). Ahhh, more, you and Tran Hung Dao will absolutely become "prince" in the eyes of almost pretty Vietnamese girls (holding US citizenship, general director position...). Well, you guys will not need to find the pretty girls, they will come to both of you...

Aibiet,

Bad, bad idea!!!    What if THD has 2 left legs?  Will the girls still come to me?  What about my footballs, all 100 of them???

Wild_1 wrote:

Aibiet,

Yes, there are steps that companies (anywhere) must undertake before they can legitimately hire foreign employees.  Then, in the case of Vietnam, there must be incentives offered to attract prospects.  Paying your own ways and getting your own work permits, as I remember, are not among them.

THD,

I think that was the company's nice way of telling you to move on...  Go play your football.

Well, you'll probably roll on the floor laughing if I tell you who the employer is.  But I can't disclose that for another month...I think I'll write a complaint letter first.

Wild_1 wrote:

Aibiet,

Bad, bad idea!!!    What if THD has 2 left legs?  Will the girls still come to me?  What about my footballs, all 100 of them???

Ooops, who cares if THD has 2 or 3 left legs as long as he has money to make up - no worries, girls will come to you no matter how many legs you have )

100 football? As an investment for "director position" - it will make "your smell" sexier hahahaha

aibiet150204 wrote:

Wild_1 wrote:

Aibiet,

Bad, bad idea!!!    What if THD has 2 left legs?  Will the girls still come to me?  What about my footballs, all 100 of them???

Ooops, who cares if THD has 2 or 3 left legs as long as he has money to make up - no worries, girls will come to you no matter how many legs you have )

100 football? As an investment for "director position" - it will make "your smell" sexier hahahaha

A person with "2 left legs" means a "clumsy person".  With American gridiron football, the ball is thrown more than kicked so you really use your hands more than your legs (for running).  You can even play American gridiron football in a wheelchair.

http://www.spinalpedia.com/blog/wp-cont … otball.png

Aibiet,

Yeah, with all those footballs, I can certainly smell myself now...  Like pigskins!!! 

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

aibiet150204 wrote:

Wild_1 wrote:

Aibiet,

Bad, bad idea!!!    What if THD has 2 left legs?  Will the girls still come to me?  What about my footballs, all 100 of them???

Ooops, who cares if THD has 2 or 3 left legs as long as he has money to make up - no worries, girls will come to you no matter how many legs you have )

100 football? As an investment for "director position" - it will make "your smell" sexier hahahaha

A person with "2 left legs" means a "clumsy person".  With American gridiron football, the ball is thrown more than kicked so you really use your hands more than your legs (for running).  You can even play American gridiron football in a wheelchair.

http://www.spinalpedia.com/blog/wp-cont … otball.png

Is '2 left legs' US vernacular?
Never heard of that expression in my life.
I have heard the expression '2 left feet'.

jimbream wrote:

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

aibiet150204 wrote:

Ooops, who cares if THD has 2 or 3 left legs as long as he has money to make up - no worries, girls will come to you no matter how many legs you have )

100 football? As an investment for "director position" - it will make "your smell" sexier hahahaha

A person with "2 left legs" means a "clumsy person".  With American gridiron football, the ball is thrown more than kicked so you really use your hands more than your legs (for running).  You can even play American gridiron football in a wheelchair.

http://www.spinalpedia.com/blog/wp-cont … otball.png

Is '2 left legs' US vernacular?
Never heard of that expression in my life.
I have heard the expression '2 left feet'.

touché - ask Wild_1.  He probably got confused between what a leg is and what a foot is.

two left feet, means you are no good on the dance floor, like me, isnt this about work permits?

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

Wild_1 wrote:

Aibiet,

Yes, there are steps that companies (anywhere) must undertake before they can legitimately hire foreign employees.  Then, in the case of Vietnam, there must be incentives offered to attract prospects.  Paying your own ways and getting your own work permits, as I remember, are not among them.

THD,

I think that was the company's nice way of telling you to move on...  Go play your football.

Well, you'll probably roll on the floor laughing if I tell you who the employer is.  But I can't disclose that for another month...I think I'll write a complaint letter first.

Get ready to roll on the floor laughing - The Employer is the United States of America (State Department). 

Tell me what's wrong with this:

http://photos.state.gov/libraries/hochi … ator-A.pdf

NOTE:  ALL APPLICANTS WHO ARE NOT FAMILY MEMBERS OF U.S. GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES MUST HAVE REQUIRED WORK AND RESIDENCY PERMITS TO BE ELIGIBLE FOR CONSIDERATION.

How do you "must have required work and residency permits to be eligible for consideration" when everyone keeps saying the EMPLOYER provides that?

I went to two agents in Vũng Tàu and they tell me the same thing:
To get a Work Permit, you need a contract from an employer.  Then to get the TRC, you need the Work Permit.

So why is the State Department unwilling to assist it's employees to get a WP and TRC?  And how do you get a WP without an employer?

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

Wild_1 wrote:

Aibiet,

Yes, there are steps that companies (anywhere) must undertake before they can legitimately hire foreign employees.  Then, in the case of Vietnam, there must be incentives offered to attract prospects.  Paying your own ways and getting your own work permits, as I remember, are not among them.

THD,

I think that was the company's nice way of telling you to move on...  Go play your football.

Well, you'll probably roll on the floor laughing if I tell you who the employer is.  But I can't disclose that for another month...I think I'll write a complaint letter first.

Get ready to roll on the floor laughing - The Employer is the United States of America (State Department). 

Tell me what's wrong with this:

http://photos.state.gov/libraries/hochi … ator-A.pdf

NOTE:  ALL APPLICANTS WHO ARE NOT FAMILY MEMBERS OF U.S. GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES MUST HAVE REQUIRED WORK AND RESIDENCY PERMITS TO BE ELIGIBLE FOR CONSIDERATION.

How do you "must have required work and residency permits to be eligible for consideration" when everyone keeps saying the EMPLOYER provides that?

I went to two agents in Vũng Tàu and they tell me the same thing:
To get a Work Permit, you need a contract from an employer.  Then to get the TRC, you need the Work Permit.

So why is the State Department unwilling to assist it's employees to get a WP and TRC?  And how do you get a WP without an employer?

Haha! I'm not American person so not sure if I can understand  correctly. However,  here is my understand:
- you must be legally working in Vietnam AND being legally resident  in Vietnam. There's nothing to deal with work permit if you are exempted  from work permit.

Hey, from what I heard: it may take 8 months for completing the process. And, more important, are you sure you're  qualified with other conditions besides the work permit thing?

THD,

I think you read into the requirements for locals.

From what I remember, the embassy and consulate don't hire anyone but locals.  The rests are done by the State Dept., back in D.C..

You must take the Foreign Service Exam.  Then, if they select you for employment, they will assign you to a post.  They would take care of everything then, even your dependents.  And you will only be allowed to stay at a post for a limited number of years...

Anyhow, I have never heard of a case in which a guy travels to a post and appllies for employment there.

As for Vietnamese processes, the employment contract preceeds the work permit, which preceeds the temporary resident card.

By the way, if you are working for the State Dept., you will not need any of those.  They call it "Diplomatic Immunity."  No border-run will be required!

Wild_1 wrote:

THD,

I think you read into the requirements for locals.

From what I remember, the embassy and consulate don't hire anyone but locals.  The rests are done by the State Dept., back in D.C..

You must take the Foreign Service Exam.  Then, if they select you for employment, they will assign you to a post.  They would take care of everything then, even your dependents.  And you will only be allowed to stay at a post for a limited number of years...

Anyhow, I have never heard of a case in which a guy travels to a post and appllies for employment there.

As for Vietnamese processes, the employment contract preceeds the work permit, which preceeds the temporary resident card.

By the way, if you are working for the State Dept., you will not need any of those.  They call it "Diplomatic Immunity."  No border-run will be required!

Since when are "locals" US Veterans?  There's language in that job posting referring to US Veterans.  It seems to me that the State Department has no idea what it's doing with these job postings.  Do they want to hire Vietnamese nationals - if so, a Vietnamese national doesn't need a work permit or residency permit so why mention it?  Are they for Filipinos/Americans/Foreigners?  If so, just like you said, need a Contract/WP/TRC.  Or did they write that requirement so to EXCLUDE Americans?  Then why bother writing all the mumbo jumbo about US Vets?

Anyhow, sounded like a fun job....get to sniff out fraudsters.  As you saw the salary was like 13K...I asked the agent how to get a WP without a contract and he said he could do it for $1500.  I said screw it...lose a month's salary and not even sure if I would get the job.

Hey, does your company do WP?  Write me a contract will ya?    I can be your google research expert....already got a PhD (Solo1 gave it to me).

THD,

Sure, man.  Just send me your paperworks, so all 3 of us can go to the Vietnamese "big house" together.  I don't know...  I am not too sure if I want to be Dusty Bottoms there. 

As for the job posting, I didn't see it and don't really have a care for it.  But, it did sound like they were referring to locals because they too must prove that they are eligible to work.  I think in most developing countries, that is the background check...

Whatever you do, don't touch those $1500-WPs.  They used to be around the $3000 range.  They are nothing but troubles.

Some points for everyone regarding embassy employment.

Those who are in diplomatic service must be Foreign Service Officers (temporary or career appointees). Not everyone in the State Department is in diplomatic service. Some are in Diplomtic service support personnel, others are DOS civil service personnel. What is required there is hiring by the Department of State for such positions. Examples are Diplomatic Security (law enforcement) and Communications. Security is a branch of its own, but many dependents of Embassy DOS employees can be hired for these both locally and from the States. State also has Civil Service Employees within DOS who can seek positions overseas. An example is housing and contracting officers. Usually a FSO - Admin is in charge, but the yeoman's work is done by DOS Civil Service types under him or her.

And, of course, not everyone with a diplomatic passport is DOS. The Legal Attache (FBI), IRS Rep, Immigration and Naturalization Rep, and many others have full diplomatic privileges and status, but are not DOS. They are selected by their respective Agencies. That said, the Ambassador can throw any of them out of country the moment he so desires (as he can anyone assigned to the mission).

Local hires can be U.S. citizens, but they must be in the country  legally with permission to work. (exception is made for dependents, whose permission to work within the embassy is implied by their admission in country) They are paid under separate wage scales. Our admin person in Mexico was a local hire who was an American citizen. He was paid a contract specified wage without a housing allowance or paid travel privileges. So, for the next three years, we heard him snivel and cry about how much more we were making than him.

It gets more complex than that, but that's as much as I know.

lirelou wrote:

...
Local hires can be U.S. citizens, but they must be in the country  legally with permission to work. (exception is made for dependents, whose permission to work within the embassy is implied by their admission in country) They are paid under separate wage scales. Our admin person in Mexico was a local hire who was an American citizen. He was paid a contract specified wage without a housing allowance or paid travel privileges. So, for the next three years, we heard him snivel and cry about how much more we were making than him.

It gets more complex than that, but that's as much as I know.

Thanks for your explanation Master D.  It makes sense and I was going for the local hire route.  It just sounded cool to be a fraud checker cuz I'm all into that.