Love

Watching TV as one does, I remember one TV ad which was 'stay virgin stay healthy' that was random and then whilst learning the dance on yks on Trans  TV there was an advert for the pill. It does seem that people are getting better informed than before and that is a good thing for all.

Dworza wrote:

mas fred wrote:

Someone's back is wet...

Think what you want to think... I didn't have any opportunity to go to local chemist.. Just saying what friend told me - I sell what I've bought..

mas fred wrote:

First off, why would a Muslim government be a problem? that statement is a result of uneducated stupidity; nothing less.
You really must dump the stupid stereotypes and learn to understand others.

Next up; this Muslim government promotes AIDS awareness and birth control, preferably within the confines of marriage but realises some people won't wait so allows easy access to birth control such as condoms in pretty much all the mini marts and birth control pills in the chemist shops.

Research your position before you attack people, countries or religions.

Dude why are you so offensive? As I've said before - it's an OT - so my note didn't have anything incommon with this topic I only mentioned it, because Ubudian was extolling indonesian goverment...nevertheless hindi or buddhist people are quite often disappointed with the goverment, because it satisfies mostly the needs of the muslims and don't care so much about other religious minorities - because in goverment are muslims only...

Because you are.
You spout total crap, very similar in nature to the rubbish we see from the extremist hate merchants of the far right, but you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

You talk of doctors refusing contraception but have no clue the pill can be bought over the counter and its sale is actively encouraged by the "Muslim" government.

That was just a good old fashioned but of useless hate speech and unworthy of anything short of contempt.
As Ubudian says, the laws that aren't welcome in a given area are simply ignored or, in a few cases such as the porn laws, a finger is stuck up in the general direction of the national government.
That's not to say there aren't any problems here but your Muslim hate shit is way off the mark.

As you say in another post, you have no clue what you're talking about so have to rely on uninformed crap to form an opinion.

Ubudian wrote:

“But representation in Congress or being heads of state is not at all what I mean what I say “Indonesian women run this country.”

The Indonesian women know what I mean, and so do most all foreigners married to one.  For certain, most all Indonesian men know exactly what I mean!”

I'm guessing you mean that Indo women rule over the family. To run the country is another matter. Confucius told that women should lead at home - still a confucian society is definitely ruled by the man.

One out of three, 30% female... may I call that weak? Then it is not much a matter of percentages, the rules of the game are more important than the participants, just look at our countries where feminism basically resolved in allowing females to cover positions built on male values, in a competitive world that has little to do with the female way (with horrible consequences over the nature of  our women).

East or west, we live in a men's word and it is now going mad. So I wish for a more balanced world,  an Indonesia where I would not have to assist daily to some subtle lack of respect toward women, one where I may see a Javanese girl walking alone without rising idiot comments, and laugh while a Balinese lady tells a guy: "Listen ya? you have a stronger body so you please carry this sack of cement, ok? Drop that stupid kretek!".

Hope my point is clear now .

One hundred women are not worth a single testicle." Confucius.

Maybe the old Chinese dude would be better left out of this.

lukereg wrote:

Watching TV as one does, I remember one TV ad which was 'stay virgin stay healthy'.

In a man's world, they're targeting girls for sure. Otherwise, as lack of sexual activity in youth damage the prostate, it would better have to say 'stay virgin stay healthy but don't forget to masturbate thrice a week'. But female virginity also build bad consequences over the time, even though not physically may be - any behaviour that goes against nature does.

'Sell the TV and buy pills or condoms' would be truly conductive to health (TV is an addictive drug that lessen brain activity at amazing speed to fill people with others' agendas and various idiocies, while sex... well, sex... ops...).

Giooorgio,  I have no idea what you are talking about.  My comment was merely to state that things are changing in Indonesia when it comes  to sex and preventative measures and when I compare that to attitudes when I arrived in 2007 that's a great leap forward.

"Giooorgio,  I have no idea what you are talking about."

Glad to "hear" you say that Luke, as I haven't a clue either! 

And, what the heck does this mean..."Otherwise, as lack of sexual activity in youth damage the prostate..."

Is that an Italian priest's excuse for diddling altar boys? 

It seems to me that the new majority of people from Europe (I am English not European, my father voted against the common market ) are far too straight and serious and trying too hard. Calm down and take it easy.
As for kiddie fiddlers in the Catholic Church, from an Anglican point of view; it goes without saying...

Giooorgio wrote,

“Hope my point is clear now.”

Actually Giorgio, it isn't more clear to me…ma'af.

“East or west, we live in a men's word and it is now going mad.”

You're probably right about the world seemingly going mad, but I don't agree at all about “East or West, we live in a men's wor(l)d.”

Of course I can only comment with a level of comfortable conviction when it comes to Bali…it being my 24/7 permanent home for what will soon be 16 years. 

I don't know how much time you've spent on Bali, but apparently one thing that left an impression on you was seeing various construction projects where the women were doing the heavy lifting while the men sat around smoking.  I hate to tell you this, but the vast majority of women laborers you might find on Bali are not Balinese, but rather they are from other Provinces of Indonesia.  The same is true of male construction workers on Bali, i.e. most are from other Provinces.

It's been this way for quite a while, and I assure you that what I am saying is 100% true.  Virtually any construction project on Bali over the past years since I've been living here will utilize “temporarily imported” hard labor.  We've done this ourselves on several construction project over the past years and the reason is purely economical…non Balinese workers will work for less pay, and, non Balinese workers in need of most any gainful employment at the “brut labor” level are far more plentiful.  In fact, on several of our past projects it wasn't unusual to have both the man and wife working for us at any one time, their kids remaining back home with grandparents.   

Even in the factories here which pump out endless furniture, handicrafts, textiles or supply local needs, the predominant labor force is non Balinese Indonesian. 

My own father in law for example…well known in the Ubud area for his top quality alang alang, may employ up to ten or more “imported” laborers at any one time for his various projects.  His projects by the way are world wide, including Sir Richard Branson for all his buildings on Necker Island.  However, when it comes to the actual installation of the alang alang (all harvested, and the pieces assembled by non Balinese) he will only rely on local Balinese expertise, as nobody else in Indonesia does alang alang better than the Balinese.   

The same applies to finishing off construction projects which require specialized Balinese artistry and skills…and this is especially so with temples, but by no means limited to temples.       

This is just the way it is in Bali…the Balinese being significantly more wealthy on average than in most other areas of Indonesia. 

So, what I am trying to get across to you is that you've formed incorrect assumptions and have used meaningless examples in your effort to prove your point…which is contrary to mine, that being that in Indonesia, it the women who rule the roost.  The simple fact that an Indonesian woman participates in hard labor says nothing about her stature or importance within her family…which she most likely rules with great capabilities.  Indonesia as a whole is really nothing more than an extension of most any family or kampung to be found here.

My mother and father in law are very comfortable middle class Balinese.  My mother in law can easily afford all the help she could ever need to run her family compound…but she chooses to do this herself and with the help of her daughters-in-law who also live in my inlaw's compound.  She also has her own warung…and every day she is off at 5AM to the market in Ubud to stock her warung with fresh produce.  But, and what's most important here is that my mother in law is not at all atypical…rather she is very typical of the average Balinese woman…in control, hard working, and a staunch defender of her family. 

In the West, this is just about all gone as far as I can see.  Indeed, in the West, the whole concept of family and community is as oddity these days and not the norm as I see all around me each and every day.

I suspect in Java it's not that much different than here in Indonesia aside from in the large cities, and certainly in Jakarta. 

You will likely come to know one day that when I say “Indonesian women run this country” that in fact, they do run this country…from the bottom up.  I can tell you in all honesty that I don't know a single Balinese…and I know a great many, who would disagree with me.

Ubudian wrote:

"Giooorgio,  I have no idea what you are talking about."

Glad to "hear" you say that Luke, as I haven't a clue either!  :

I assumed I'd been drinking but it seems I was sober after all.
However, upon a 15th read, I've got the idea but I would tend to disagree with all but the suggestions of regular plonker pulling and it being a man's world.

It clearly is a man's world as a very sexually active man is a 'lad' whilst a very sexually active girl is a whore and girls are always blamed for the spread of disease.
I recall on young lady I'd previously known in the biblical sense, returning from working in Hull.
I was chatting her up, working on a return visit but the chap standing behind her was silently clapping his hands in such a way as I could see but she could not.
He was indicating she was spreading the clap but pretty much ignoring men have to be shagging her to catch it.
The suggestion "shagging her" is equally sexist in nature as it clearly states male want and control of the shag in question.
In my experience, the ladies I've been with were equally interested so it could be said, they shagged me or we shagged.

Sadly, in my opinion, ladies I knew in the UK are now using this phrase to indicate they had sex with a men/some men last Saturday night.
It's really unladylike and not sexy.

Lukereg, sorry, nothing to say about what you've stated, I just got hooked by a phrase you cited, sorry again.

Ubudian, I don't give a shit of priests' words, ma'af, nor I care of the great many (the majority is stupid sheep and they may keep repeating the same fancies and covers forever - and so priests are smart, at the end). I've made my point, that's all - and I recognize the [b]alinese accent, by the way, and you may understand that an example is just an example. Get off Mr. Manymany, no need of turning intellectuals, a free individual simply see what's just out there.

Not going to waste more time among cowboys' testicles and funny stats....

YO! Pak Fred,

Since you were able to translate another of Giorgio's posts, I'm wondering if you'd care to take a shot on deciphering the one above?

I get this strange "Alice in Wonderland" feeling every time I read one of his posts! 

He says, "I've made my point" but I have no idea what that point is.

HELP...anyone.

How come I've unsubscribed but keep receiving these things?

Alice? One who tasted the book knows what fits in it. A guy that uses stats to state the contrary of what he says would fit in that weir world.

I've understood who cannot get my point and I've already tried to help: rinse the brain then just look around.

For what concerns the elected elder brother, I guess he has a prostate healthy as mine, but that's not enough proximity to feel touched.

No hard feelings-lah... Regards to all

Are you Yoda?  Speak in English you must.

Giooorgio wrote:

(the majority is stupid sheep
Not going to waste more time among cowboys' testicles and funny stats....

Sheep are kind and very much lovely animals.
I never consider a girl's brain power when I fancy her body either.

As for cowboy's balls; I've never studied any so I'll have to bow to your experience with them.

I'm so lost in this thread I don't think I can even begin to decipher Giorgios comments, so all I'll say is.

Roy, spot on, women rule from the ground up.

Lads, Dworza especially, for fucks sake use a condom if you're not married. It's disrespectful to women to risk giving them diseases because you want to go bareback

Umm Giorgio, we are obviously not as well read as you are, so you'll have to use simpler English.

All I can add is simply this. I have lived in many countries during my sixty five years of life. In every one no matter the situation or status women rule and so they should, and yes I agree with Ubudian and Fred totally, nick off Gioorgio, get a life.

Guys can we tone down the language please? I see no benefit in adding swear words to replies especially when there are more powerful and poignant ones that could be used.

Is nick off swearing??????

No old english? I thought it was in the oxford english dictionary.

Thank you Samhand it is indeed.

So, have we worked out why bule dudes like Indonesian girls?

They laugh at our jokes even when they don't understand

They always try to make things better

Giooorgio wrote:

How come I've unsubscribed but keep receiving these things?

That's been a problem for as long as I've been here.  It's best to not subscribe to anything in the first place and uncheck that subscribe box every time you post.

Samhand wrote:

No old english? I thought it was in the oxford english dictionary.

The F word, probably the most versatile word in any language, is in the dictionary.
However, there are also flies in soup from time to time and we rightfully dislike those being in there.

mas fred wrote:

Giooorgio wrote:

(the majority is stupid sheep
Not going to waste more time among cowboys' testicles and funny stats....

Sheep are kind and very much lovely animals.
I never consider a girl's brain power when I fancy her body either.

As for cowboy's balls; I've never studied any so I'll have to bow to your experience with them.

The amount of space taken by Expat.com in my mail invited me to have a look. “Who knows... “ I thought. Little to be known but the cavalry reaching Ubud for an exercise in verbal smartness.
Thank's Mas for telling me that sheep are nice animals, I've never noticed that. Still, I was not referring to the animals, we use the name to label humans, you know. It's all in that jump. They say that if in a row of sheep you have one jumping for no reason, the others will jump more or less on the same spot, even though there's nothing to be jumped (so they say, I just report). That turned the sheep emblematic (herding).

Regarding the cowboy's balls, I don't know and why should I. Cowboys are recognized by attitude an style, and then the outfit if real cowboys are the matter. I was referring to the John Wayne style Confucius you cited. As a side note: as women are so mean that a hundred of them cannot pare a testicle, how come men allow them to rule? Assuming these guys as having no balls at all is not enough . Do we need to acquire ovaries, Mas? If then we move the speaking habit from “having balls” to “having ovaries”, then I'll automatically comply with the idea that women run (dominate, I would say) the world.
Gatal? A nice game is one that doesn't last long, and then this one has turned cheap enough (balls are disgusting, Fred, unless for women flooded by hormones - you better had to let them out of the picture).

Jethro Verne wrote:

All I can add is simply this. I have lived in many countries during my sixty five years of life. In every one no matter the situation or status women rule and so they should, and yes I agree with Ubudian and Fred totally, nick off Gioorgio, get a life.

Interesting! In the common world, situations are said to be influencing (at least) and status is said as being a determinant,  that's why some people work so hard to acquire it. What's for, being a king if a concubine may well rule the country?

Anyway, it could be that such assumptions are just commonly shared mistakes. In your life you have observed so much, you should be able to explain in a few neat lines how the thing actually works. Hopefully you didn't live your life as an expat-cock (don't be offended; I'm referring to that funny birds that put much effort in emitting meaningless sounds as loud as they can, while they cannot fly out of the courtyard).  Just saying something like “everybody knows that everywhere it is like that” is for the sheep, it teaches nothing, proves nothing, and anyway, I suggest you not going to teach the Moluccans - they would not like hearing that crap. I have to say I quite respect their definitely male way of the head of the family; taught but not rude, and pretty healthy - but I may imagine more fertile possibilities.

Samhand wrote:

I'm so lost in this thread I don't think I can even begin to decipher Giorgios comments, so all I'll say is.

Roy, spot on, women rule from the ground up.

[....]

Umm Giorgio, we are obviously not as well read as you are, so you'll have to use simpler English.

Dear Samhand, it's your turn. I'll be nice. Then, I'll be serious too – but this, the next time (I want, first of all, an answer from you, as simply as a yes or no). Don't worry, not going to bother – to me, in most instances, being serious means laughing – not at you, no, no – I'm simply the kind of guy who doesn't give a fuck of this and that, and laugh.

I elected you as the nice guy - I've also sensed you're intelligence. Because... you see, before going to the jumping spot you made this quoted post... nice, just nice... you called a lady in – you're a gentleman... you gave the only constructive contribute: because of my terrible English, ah ah, you invited me to use a simpler English... good, it sounds you've said, come on, explain. Thank you. 

To repay your kindness, I've made a little little trap for you, please come in. Don't worry, it's just a trap in this virtual world, weaker than one made of paper.

Ok, before getting serious, I need to be ‘serious' – and this, indeed, may be a little boring... but not too much, and than it may somehow teas the mind.

Look, two facts came out and went apparently unobserved.

We've been courteously given a link to know exactly how many women sit at the parliament and how Indonesia ranks on this regard.  Quite decent. Then we've been reminded of a one female president in four. One may say one and a half, as Madame Suharto, said to have a mystical flaming womb, is assumed as much influential (I'm opening a door to others' opinion, no problem right?).

Second came what surely everybody already know... about who's generally running as CEO or Head of Department in companies.  Complex companies or companies dealing with complicated matters mean that one needs much more that reading balances and having an idea of the market and the competitors – one must known things throughout. No way a wife can get in. Imagine that you are a doctor and your wife heads a department in a financial firm, she deals with swaps and other derivatives related to palm oil, what are you going to suggest her? Oh, by the way, I  asked why women need male emissaries to run the country. May be they are much keen on puppet mastery (ops,  Javanese puppets masters are males...).

I add here two more points, one for each side.

Small business look as being run by wives, in this country or at least in the portion I've been.

Last but not least, a delicate topic: religion (I'll try to keep it as light as I can).  In Bali you have that colorful pluralism, doors open to all, the rest is different.  I wish not going into the specific religions so I move to the first land of prophets, where the old book says that God created the best creature male and female - then shortly after you have the making of Eva. For as far as I know, only Jewish elaborated on the contradiction, telling that the first Adam's mate was Lilith. She wanted the upper position during the coitus (symbolic: she didn't like being subjugated). Well, Adam lamented to God and God sent Lilith to dwell among the devils, that He made a second lady, this time directly from the substance of Adam. Then this smart Eva, as we all know, took the upper hand at the apple tree - and she got blamed.

I guess that's enough. One may protest that these major religions came in when the local psyche was already shaped. Ok, but I would find hard to claim that these religions, which take so much space in Indonesian culture, have no influence over mentalities and subsequent behaviours.

It has been said something like “bottom up women runs this country”. I do agree. But there's also the other direction; governments set rules and regulations for the people, a boss decide who must do what, how and, eventually, when, and then people look for some room and some trick... oh, complicated – yes of course.

So you have some pieces of a puzzle, Samhand. Surely there are missing pieces. You may look for them - if you like – combine them, up to you... just remember that the world is never black or white.

Now I want to ask... and this is what I beg you to answer, whenever you have time, honestly: are you going to work on that puzzle? Are you going to put some effort on understanding how – we may reasonably assume - this society effectively work? Just answer as it comes.

Sincere regards

Hey Georgio, thanks for taking the time to explain your thinking. Of course no black and white here, so I'lltry to explain my perspective rather than answer your question.

I work in an industry where around half the people are women, both in UK and Indonesia. As an engineer my profession is dominated by males, but other technical professions are dominated by females and we have 20-30% women at the top. Yes the boss is a man, but maybe that reflects the testosterone drive.

I believe that women have an equal right to everything in society, to think otherwise starts to justify the subjugation if women, date rape and all the other idiocies that men conduct.

I live in Indonesia where women have signigicant positions of authority and certainly rule the home. . So maybe being male gives us privilege, but that does not mean that men dominate the country. Just that men think it is more inportant to take tge top job and wear the shiny badges. If we're talking stereotypes, men rule through force, women rule through influence. But of course stereotypes don't work for individuals and history is littered with forceful women and influential men.


I think that it is important to treat all women with respect. That doesn't make me dickless, I'll happily take the conversation outside if you want to test that one and please let's leave religion out of it.

Again, thanks for taking the time to explain, though still to many riddles for a simple man like me

BTW interesting thread and we're not really off topic yet.

I expect someone will delete it anyway...

Has anyone mentioned Kartini yet?

A person is something but an idea is everything.

Thinking on, Thatcher had some of of the biggest brass balls you'll ever see.

Thatcher also had the biggest swinging dick in europe at one time,

Still £10m was a shockin waste of money!

Not sure thatcher has mutch relevance in Indonesia, except perhaps as an example of how to negotiate with unruly unions.

Selamat hari raya Galungan everyone!

Sam, to more illustrate your excellent points, all of which I wholeheartedly agree, let me talk a bit about how adat, or “village law” works here in Bali. 

Every village or kampung in Bali will have two adat councils, one for secular matters and the other for religious matters. 

Only men are members of either adat, but interestingly enough, specifically only married men are members of adat.  Even though foreign born, I have been a member of our adat for many years although I avoid attending the meetings, and surely will not vote as I have found over time that it's better for me to avoid outright participation in village politics.   

Women are not allowed to be members of either adat, and therefore they have no vote.  However, woe to any man who casts a vote on touchy issues that is in opposition to his wife's opinion.  And, believe me, everyone in the village will know precisely how each member of the adat voted on any matters brought to a vote.   

If you ask the women in most Balinese villages about their exclusion from adat, they'll generally respond along the line of “we control our adat through our men, and thus we save ourselves and our time for equally important matters of family, managing our compounds and preparing offerings.”

Personally I find that the way things work here is utterly brilliant in concept.  The women let the men wear the “shinny badges” as you say Sam, and they let them think they are in control, when in fact it's the women who have no need for ephemeral emblems of power while they in fact, rule the roost. 

Anyone can argue against this reality all they want, but I submit that disagreement to this obvious and readily apparent fact of life is most likely expressed by someone who in fact has very little experience living here, and surely is someone who hasn't taken the time to learn and carefully observe the way things work here. 

So it is among many expats.

Cheers Roy,

Sounds like a sensible working solution to the age old problem.

Sadly I suspect it's not as enlightened across Indonesia.

Good, Samhand, very good. The right answer was some kind of: no, no intention to do that. Politely, you keept it implicit.  That kind of stuff is too complex to deal with analytically, after much work you'll end with a dubious picture.

You  see the thread turned into a men's thread, no lady care of. May be they think: “Why should I care, if this country is run by women for the 30% or the 60%. I care of my life, not of what I can't change”.

And what about us, the guys? While women tend to be soft and collaborative, we guys, we tend to be stiff and competitive. For one reason or another we got here in this thread, and once it catered to competitiveness.... A skirmish just like we did at school? may be. Just kids? Not so sure.  Wired to be men, teased by a little thing, I may forget that fight is to defend a lady from a real threat, to defend the house, and serious things like that. Wired. And so, when attacked because of my first post, I got to reply. Later I stopped, I said who gives a fuck, and I laughed. But then it happened that I went there again, and... at first I said, let the children play, and laughed again. But then, I thought “hey, they are going to write ‘coward Italian' or something like that!” and at that time I was in a blurred wrong state – oops, kicked in again! Well, I was not that wired, indeed, I was quite aware, and had some fun too, but there was also that instinctive component - a thing  I just laugh at while relaxed.

To be briefly continued (and stopped).

So, you can write in English after all!