looking to buy land in Philippines and build my house

I looking to buy land in Philippines and build my house. Please will someone give me contact information on builders and places where I can buy material.

Hi  drjones2013,

A new topic was created from you post on the Philippines forum for better visibility.

Regards,

David.

Are you married to a Filipina?  If not your chances to own land and build will be extremely limited.  Did you ever spend any time in the Philippines?  You may want to rent for a few months just to see if it is right for you.  Where do you intend to live?  This would be helpful for anyone giving you local advise.  Good luck.

mugtech :

Are you married to a Filipina?  If not your chances to own land and build will be extremely limited.  Did you ever spend any time in the Philippines?  You may want to rent for a few months just to see if it is right for you.  Where do you intend to live?  This would be helpful for anyone giving you local advise.  Good luck.

Yes this is the best advice.As Phils is not every ones cup of tea.

Well if you like to live in a countryside and own a ranch or a mountain resort and you wish it nearer or short drive to malls then you can chose buying in the Cebu Province either in Balamban or Aloguinsan. Balamban is a good place to stay for those who like to own a ranch there a number of Japanese and Americans who are staying in Balamban. If you like to live in a country side short drive from the City you can chose to buy a lot in Aloguinsan its quite mountainous area but very peaceful and safe to live. You may contact me if you live to by a lot for you to own a house.

It would be hard for you to own a lot here if you are not married to a Filipina or otherwise you have to have a trusted Filipino friend who can represent in your behalf. Otherwise if you can't find a trustworthy person either a Filipina wife of a Filipino citizen then better forget about your plan.

Be vigilant.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but unless you are a Filipino or a Philippine citizen, you cannot own land in the Philippines.

To make it worse, the property market here is so full of scammers, crooks and straight dishonest dealers, owning a condominium is even a high risk venture.

Been living here over 5 years, I rent, could not find one condo development that would answer even the most basic of questions.

They all demand your written promise to buy first, then they will hand over what you seek, but then you will find, all the problems are just beginning. No construction details, no handover of titles, missing documents, certifications.

It is very simply, not a good look from a foreigners perspective.

And worse still the Attorneys here are in the game, they will stall, make excuses, delay, hum haa, until you give up then you have the war of getting your deposit back.

Good luck with that as well.

Trevkiwi :

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but unless you are a Filipino or a Philippine citizen, you cannot own land in the Philippines.

To make it worse, the property market here is so full of scammers, crooks and straight dishonest dealers, owning a condominium is even a high risk venture.

Been living here over 5 years, I rent, could not find one condo development that would answer even the most basic of questions.

They all demand your written promise to buy first, then they will hand over what you seek, but then you will find, all the problems are just beginning. No construction details, no handover of titles, missing documents, certifications.

It is very simply, not a good look from a foreigners perspective.

And worse still the Attorneys here are in the game, they will stall, make excuses, delay, hum haa, until you give up then you have the war of getting your deposit back.

Good luck with that as well.

I agree with you...Especially in Manila metro...However there are ways not to own but control real estate here in the Philippines...I recommend finding a Filipino you can trust and never go the corporate route..to many expenses and red tape....There are other ways to buy, lease, will back and control the real estate property you wish you could own..Always remember once a permanent resident; you can own a house, a business building, an auto outright, furnishing, etc...The first 2 you should always lock in at least a 20 year lease with a clause the owner of the property cannot sell without your permission...As I said before there are ways to hold and control land titles with Power of Attorney in your name without actually owning the land...Research it with a good attorney who understands all the laws...

[moderated : no free ad]

you cannot buy any land in the Philippines un less you are Philippino or married to one.

Michaelee :

you cannot buy any land in the Philippines un less you are Philippino or married to one.

********************************

That's a big negatory good buddy!

You are "postulating" and I do believe your postulate is in good  faith, but alas, it's wrong.

[]~>[] pos•tu•late:

1. assume something: to assume or suggest that something is true or exists, especially as the basis of an argument or theory:


Even when you marry the beautiful, desirable, lovely, Filipina; ("You") as in the Expat, (still) don't own the land.


The Filipina owns the land... lock, stock, and barrel!!

If she were to meet with an unfortunate accident, boat sinks, falling coconut, snakebite, whatever; her relatives can (and will) move in and take all... It's not malice, it's not evil, it's not even ill-will. It simply is what it is. You got it... and they want it... (and) the law is on their side. 

[ Perhaps, and if ], you moved quickly and married another Filipina, say the deceased wife's sister, or (maybe) even someone who is not a blood relative, you *might* be able to maintain "control" of the land, but you will not own the land period.

So just to be crystal clear, marriage to a Filipina, does not equal ownership of land, for the Expat; who marries the Filipina.

The land owning rules do-not change by way of marriage, nor annulment either... You decide you want out she keeps the land.

There's always the slow, unenlightened, illogically determined, Expat; who fights this. They tie things up with a lawyer or lawyers, say five or more years, but it's just money for lawyers and benign satisfaction for the estranged, (mangled), Expat. She still keeps the land....


Always keep the faith.

Cheers.

Ramblingroads :
Michaelee :

you cannot buy any land in the Philippines un less you are Philippino or married to one.

********************************

That's a big negatory good buddy!

You are "postulating" and I do believe your postulate is in good  faith, but alas, it's wrong.

[]~>[] pos•tu•late:

1. assume something: to assume or suggest that something is true or exists, especially as the basis of an argument or theory:


Even when you marry the beautiful, desirable, lovely, Filipina; ("You") as in the Expat, (still) don't own the land.




The Filipina owns the land... lock, stock, and barrel!!

If she were to meet with an unfortunate accident, boat sinks, falling coconut, snakebite, whatever; her relatives can (and will) move in and take all... It's not malice, it's not evil, it's not even ill-will. It simply is what it is. You got it... and they want it... (and) the law is on their side. 

[ Perhaps, and if ], you moved quickly and married another Filipina, say the deceased wife's sister, or (maybe) even someone who is not a blood relative, you *might* be able to maintain "control" of the land, but you will not own the land period.

So just to be crystal clear, marriage to a Filipina, does not equal ownership of land, for the Expat; who marries the Filipina.

The land owning rules do-not change by way of marriage, nor annulment either... You decide you want out she keeps the land.

There's always the slow, unenlightened, illogically determined, Expat; who fights this. They tie things up with a lawyer or lawyers, say five or more years, but it's just money for lawyers and benign satisfaction for the estranged, (mangled), Expat. She still keeps the land....


Always keep the faith.

Cheers.

Finally I have a NET connection!!!

Ramblingroads: I am going to have to disagree with you on this one and the one you wrote after...

Michaelee, did not postulate as you say...He never assumed anything...He was correct by stating if married to a Filipino he could purchase land...He never mentioned who's name it would be in as far as ownership...

You stated in case of the Filipino's death the family would step in, claim and take the land...By making such a statement you yourself are POSTULATING...Even though it could possibly happen the Expat has many ways to protect oneself...Of those are a long term lease and if the Expat is over 60 chances are good he would pass before the lease would expire...Even family members cannot break the lease without just cause...Also the Filipino spouse can draw up a Will and in addition give the Expat POWER OF ATTORNEY stating upon death the Expat will have full authority to sell said property...And if the Filipino spouse makes a Living Trust naming the Expat the sole executor of the estate it would virtually handcuff any other family member from stepping in and claiming the property...Also, after getting permanent residency as a result of marriage the Expat can own a house 100% up to 1000 sqm and have rights to sell...Another thing which is possible; the Filipino spouse can even name all children by either her or her husbands previous marriages to receive equal shares of the said property upon sale even if the children are of foreign citizenship...Even under Filipino law children of a marriage are first in line should their parents pass including the children of the foreign spouse should they be named in the Trust...I believe most other family members would never risk their funds to hire a lawyer to fight to get something which belongs to their dead relatives children and even if they had no children as long as the Expat has a Lease in force, Power of Attorney to sell land described on the Deed and is Executor of the trust with him being sole beneficiary it would be financial suicide for the family members to go after it...

I know your reasoning behind what you have said is to protect Expats from falling into a financial nightmare in the name of love...But even IN LOVE...WHERE THERE'S A WILL THERE'S A WAY...

I say to all Expats who wish to make their spouse and children (should there be any) happy by giving them the opportunity to own property after your demise; is to take the appropriate legal steps to protect oneself from being scammed in the name of LOVE like Ramblingroads has stated...

All aside, I would like to say: Rambling you still haven't responded to my email..LOL..

I am sure you will probably respond to this one in your intellectual way...It is good you are giving the forum an education in defining certain words in our complicated English language...I myself truly enjoy reading your wisdom and learn by it...Perhaps I may even learn more from your response to this reply...:D=D

Take Care and God Bless

I never ,meant that I would ever own the land but you must be married so that she can get the money to buy it or have the income with your money to pay for it, I simple was trying to keep it simple. The bottom line is that it is simple that the person write this originally can not buy it.

u can lease lease lease       she buys the land  u lease lease lease

Michaelee :

I never ,meant that I would ever own the land but you must be married so that she can get the money to buy it or have the income with your money to pay for it, I simple was trying to keep it simple. The bottom line is that it is simple that the person write this originally can not buy it.

************************************

Michaelee!

Dear brother.

As I stated before, I did not or do not, fault, your intentions. But I think your statement needs, *clarification*.... these things might be easy for you, as you say, "it is simple", but for people like me, and Expats who come to the Philippines, there's nothing simple about it...

To say you have to marry a Filipina to [ own ] the land, is misleading and when examined completely untrue.

This is very important for an Expat to understand... many of whom are retired, and living on a pension.

The Expat may have (some) savings or investments paid off back in their home land; however; in the big picture of things it's usually not much (real) wealth.... If squandered; it cannot be replaced --- Because, the Expats have spent a lifetime working... to have or save, this little bit of wealth. <~> So (almost all) of them want to protect their life's investment, (it's all they have)...

I often say, "fools rush in, where angels fear to tread." But there is a [ caveat ] that is far more telling...

[ LOVE IS BLIND. ]

ca·ve·at:  /ˈkavēˌät/
Noun
1. A warning or proviso of specific stipulations, conditions, or limitations.

2. From the Latin, let him beware:



As a side note the "idea" of Love in the Western Man's mind, verses the "idea" of Love in the Asian Female's mind is a whole other subject; well worth examining; perhaps at another time...

Also the "idea" of money associated with the Western Man, within the scope of how "He" is viewed... from the Filipino's perspective; from the mega wealthy at the very top of Filipino society, to the destitute at the very rock bottom of Filipino society, (it does not change); is another topic, well worth examining. Again, off topic, maybe another time.

Take care,

Always keep the faith,

Cheers.

drjones2013 :

I looking to buy land in Philippines and build my house. Please will someone give me contact information on builders and places where I can buy material.

Hi,

It's very important if you will be specific about the location where you wanted to build your house.

If you are married to a Filipina, you will be able to buy land but it will be name after your spouse, However You can get the rights of the land... If ever you'll have a problem.. Your spouse can't do anything with the house and lot... I dont mean any negative about it... If ever..

If you're not married, it's better to buy a condo...

My advise is.. Choose where you want to stay.. Don't rush anything..
Rent a place first and if you like it there then Find a place that you can call your own..
It's important to make friends so you'll get to know the place but dont be too naive to help any one financially..
i hope i somehow helped..

Good luck

Ramblingroads :
Michaelee :

I never ,meant that I would ever own the land but you must be married so that she can get the money to buy it or have the income with your money to pay for it, I simple was trying to keep it simple. The bottom line is that it is simple that the person write this originally can not buy it.

************************************

Michaelee!

Dear brother.

As I stated before, I did not or do not, fault, your intentions. But I think your statement needs, *clarification*.... these things might be easy for you, as you say, "it is simple", but for people like me, and Expats who come to the Philippines, there's nothing simple about it...

To say you have to marry a Filipina to [ own ] the land, is misleading and when examined completely untrue.

This is very important for an Expat to understand... many of whom are retired, and living on a pension.

The Expat may have (some) savings or investments paid off back in their home land; however; in the big picture of things it's usually not much (real) wealth.... If squandered; it cannot be replaced --- Because, the Expats have spent a lifetime working... to have or save, this little bit of wealth. <~> So (almost all) of them want to protect their life's investment, (it's all they have)...

I often say, "fools rush in, where angels fear to tread." But there is a [ caveat ] that is far more telling...

[ LOVE IS BLIND. ]

ca·ve·at:  /ˈkavēˌät/
Noun
1. A warning or proviso of specific stipulations, conditions, or limitations.

2. From the Latin, let him beware:



As a side note the "idea" of Love in the Western Man's mind, verses the "idea" of Love in the Asian Female's mind is a whole other subject; well worth examining; perhaps at another time...

Also the "idea" of money associated with the Western Man, within the scope of how "He" is viewed... from the Filipino's perspective; from the mega wealthy at the very top of Filipino society, to the destitute at the very rock bottom of Filipino society, (it does not change); is another topic, well worth examining. Again, off topic, maybe another time.

Take care,

Always keep the faith,

Cheers.

Just in case you didn't get an alert on my reply to your last before this reply...Please go there and read...

On your last paragraph in this reply you did not clarify if you feel the Elitist of the top of the food chain feel the same about a Western man's money as the Destitute..."It does not change" in itself is not clarification...


Still awaiting your REPLIESss to this and elsewhere...:rolleyes:

A Patient Cheers...

vetretreat :
Ramblingroads :
Michaelee :

you cannot buy any land in the Philippines un less you are Philippino or married to one.

********************************

That's a big negatory good buddy!

You are "postulating" and I do believe your postulate is in good  faith, but alas, it's wrong.

[]~>[] pos•tu•late:

1. assume something: to assume or suggest that something is true or exists, especially as the basis of an argument or theory:


Even when you marry the beautiful, desirable, lovely, Filipina; ("You") as in the Expat, (still) don't own the land.




The Filipina owns the land... lock, stock, and barrel!!

If she were to meet with an unfortunate accident, boat sinks, falling coconut, snakebite, whatever; her relatives can (and will) move in and take all... It's not malice, it's not evil, it's not even ill-will. It simply is what it is. You got it... and they want it... (and) the law is on their side. 

[ Perhaps, and if ], you moved quickly and married another Filipina, say the deceased wife's sister, or (maybe) even someone who is not a blood relative, you *might* be able to maintain "control" of the land, but you will not own the land period.

So just to be crystal clear, marriage to a Filipina, does not equal ownership of land, for the Expat; who marries the Filipina.

The land owning rules do-not change by way of marriage, nor annulment either... You decide you want out she keeps the land.

There's always the slow, unenlightened, illogically determined, Expat; who fights this. They tie things up with a lawyer or lawyers, say five or more years, but it's just money for lawyers and benign satisfaction for the estranged, (mangled), Expat. She still keeps the land....


Always keep the faith.

Cheers.

Finally I have a NET connection!!!

Ramblingroads: I am going to have to disagree with you on this one and the one you wrote after...

Michaelee, did not postulate as you say...He never assumed anything...He was correct by stating if married to a Filipino he could purchase land...He never mentioned who's name it would be in as far as ownership...

You stated in case of the Filipino's death the family would step in, claim and take the land...By making such a statement you yourself are POSTULATING...Even though it could possibly happen the Expat has many ways to protect oneself...Of those are: Promissory Notes of Purchase, a long term lease and if the Expat is over 60 chances are good he would pass before the lease would expire...Even family members cannot break the lease without just cause...Also the Filipino spouse can draw up a Will and in addition give the Expat POWER OF ATTORNEY stating upon death the Expat will have full authority to sell said property...And if the Filipino spouse makes a Living Trust naming the Expat the sole executor of the estate it would virtually handcuff any other family member from stepping in and claiming the property...Also, after getting permanent residency as a result of marriage the Expat can own a house 100% up to 1000 sqm and have rights to sell...Another thing which is possible; the Filipino spouse can even name all children by either her or her husbands previous marriages to receive equal shares of the said property upon sale even if the children are of foreign citizenship...Even under Filipino law children of a marriage are first in line should their parents pass including the children of the foreign spouse should they be named in the Trust...I believe most other family members who are fortunate enough to afford it, would never risk their funds to hire a lawyer to fight to get something which belongs to their dead relatives children and even if they had no children as long as the Expat has a Lease in force, Power of Attorney to sell land described on the Deed and is Executor of the trust with him being sole beneficiary it would be financial suicide for the family members to go after it...

I know your reasoning behind what you have said is to protect Expats from falling into a financial nightmare in the name of love...But even IN LOVE...WHERE THERE'S A WILL THERE'S A WAY...

I say to all Expats who wish to make their spouse and children (should there be any) happy by giving them the opportunity to own property after your demise; is to take the appropriate legal steps to protect oneself from being scammed in the name of LOVE like Ramblingroads has stated...

All aside, I would like to say: Rambling you still haven't responded to my email..LOL..

I am sure you will probably respond to this one in your intellectual way...It is good you are giving the forum an education in defining certain words in our complicated English language...I myself truly enjoy reading your wisdom and learn by it...Perhaps I may even learn more from your response to this reply...:D=D

Take Care and God Bless

Moving this to the bottom so all can read...

:cheers:

Vetretreat, greetings!

Holy Cow, lots going on.. you're right I did not get the alert. I saw this one just now.

" All aside, I would like to say: Rambling you still haven't responded to my email..LOL.. "

I responded!

I responded 3 days ago, to the 1EH @ gmail, I shortened the address (here) because I'm not going to post it. But that's me "Sick Buffalo" with the address of drfarang[at]gmail.com, the title of the message I sent was "Dental n Things". I've got a copy so if it did not get through I'll resend it?

Cheers.

Vetretreat wrote:
Ramblingroads: I am going to have to disagree with you on this one and the one you wrote after...

Michaelee wrote:
you cannot buy any land in the Philippines un less you are Philippino or married to one.

If we wish to ply power here... Michaelee's statement has fallacy from the gate... Think of it like this, [ you can buy all the land you want to buy, but you can't own any of it, that you buy. ]  More clarification, you can walk down any street pick three perfect Philippino strangers and say, hey I want to buy you land... And you can buy them land... (and) the exact same rules apply, to the foreigner who marries a Filipina... You can still buy all the land you want to buy, (and) you still can't own the land...

Michaelle's statement is only half true, the true part is [ if you're a Philippino ] then "you" as in your own good generic self can buy and own land.... It's the only case that "you" can buy, and own, land, in the Philippines.

The rest; and please keep up... is exactly the same. You buy land for the perfect stranger "he or she" owns the land. You buy land for your wife, new acquaintance, or girlfriend, (she) owns the land... [Both] the wife, and the perfect stranger, have the (exact) same rights to the land you bought them... There is no difference when it comes down to the bare bones letter of the law.  They own it and you don't...

Vetretreat, this is not a court room, ladies and gentleman of the jury, we're not splitting frog hairs here, with language. But with Michaelle's words above, even though it's written as a cannot phrase or statement, about what one, can't do, the implied, or implication is, (you-can't-unless-you're-married; to a Philippino), "you" can't buy land...unless.

This is not difficult to read, see, or glean out. And, "to buy" or "to purchase" or "to acquire" in the Western world of finance, with regard to property, houses, cars,  massively implies "to own" (especially), when items are paid out in cash.

Michaelee, is an American Expat. Michaelee, sorry, no shot on you, I know your intentions are not to mislead. It's just the way the phrase is structured. Meanwhile, Vetretreat has pulled out his crowbar, and is prying all over the poor innocent structure, with said crowbar. And you see the results.

I think there's plenty of insinuation in the above statement; and such implication, fits comfortably within the definition of postulation. Postulation is not a negative form of speech or language, but it does clean up to various degrees the ever ambiguous insinuation.


" Michaelee, did not postulate as you say...He never assumed anything...He was correct by stating purchase land...He never mentioned who's name it would be in as far as ownership...if married to a Filipino he could " 


Again you are (playing) with semantics... You can buy land if you're married to a Philippino... Is what his (implication) states. As I said before, "to buy" paid out in cash, and then, not to own, what you buy, screams for clarity --- most Westerners's in this world do not understand, that buying expensive items with cash, and then, not owning what they paid for... Again needs clarity,... which was my goal, and I think most who read here can "see" and understand that. 

Michaelle's statement in of itself if one were say in Philosophy class 101, is very ambiguous, and, if one is (working it...trying to read it as a lawyer, presenting a case) there is plenty of room to maneuver. One lawyer can imply what was being said, and the other lawyer can imply what was not, being said. But for the sake of common sense, there's little to be gained... Much like the cat or dog who's chasing his tail, other than exercise, they don't get a whole lot out it, the tail always gets away.

Most of the writings here... that I read are based on common sense. And the common sense end of the statement, as stated by Michaelle, is you can't buy land, unless you are married to a Philippino. How you can derive that there is no implied, and or postulated meaning, is a bit of common sense stretch. A splitting of frog hairs, or perhaps a counting of hen's teeth, exercise, is in order, but I'll leave all that to the more energetic.


" You stated in case of the Filipino's death the family would step in, claim and take the land...By making such a statement you yourself are POSTULATING...Even though it could possibly happen the Expat has many ways to protect oneself..."


Uh Oh,  we're back on to postulating!... Well let us review, definitions.

**A postulate is a basic assumption, a premise, that is accepted as true without proof.

I find postulation weak here... referencing your paragraph above where you stated I am [ POSTULATING ], this is more of "theorem" territory. A theorem is something that can be proven based on the assumed...

Placing them side by side

**A postulate is a basic assumption, a premise, that is (accepted) as true {without proof}.

**A theorem is something that (can) be (proven) based on the assumed...

So clearly the theorem is stronger and lends into some experiences of other Expats that I have personally witnessed.
Because I know of two cases where this has actually happened, both Expats lost all... this is not a postulate. ( Actual concrete Proof), moves beyond postulation, "proof of" is over and above the ideas of premise or assumption.

Ha!! Look who's holding the reins in tight on words now. Oh well, that's what happens when you deal with kids... like me! So what can I say; there you have it, a single frog hair split three ways...a whole lot of splitting going on pray tell. Things are getting pretty doggone fine around here. As to the frog hair thing. Ha! One has to look pretty damn close to see one...

Back to common sense, It's not a written law that they, the relatives, (must) move in and take the land. But it's well within the realm of possible, and it does happen... and the law favors the Philippino's... Please read your own statement above where you point out "even though it could happen" as to you yourself pointing out the possibilities... OK moving on! 

Talking about ways to protect oneself from losing the land, that one has paid for; is a whole other can of worms. I'm sure there is merit there... However, we were / are discussing Foreign Expats and land (ownership) in the Philippines, albeit definitely a roundabout discussion of such. 

I see lots of things you've written about "protection".  As to the point of, willing land, through a legal property will, to foreigner's, logically, it would seem, to circumvent the entire law about foreign land ownership; it's a real head scratcher...

However in any case,in the realm of land (ownership), where the rubber meets the road, the laws overwhelmingly favor Philippino's. ~~> Alas, you can't apply brakes to a volcano; one just stands by pretty much helplessly, and watches them blow.

I'll kindly take my exit,

All's well that ends well,

Always keep the faith,

Cheers.

Ramblingroads :

Ramblingroads: I am going to have to disagree with you on this one and the one you wrote after...

Michaelee wrote:
you cannot buy any land in the Philippines un less you are Philippino or married to one.

If we wish to ply power here... Michaelee's statement has fallacy from the gate... Think of it like this, [ you can buy all the land you want to buy, but you can't own any of it, that you buy. ]  More clarification, you can walk down any street pick three perfect Philippino strangers and say, hey I want to buy you land... And you can buy them land... (and) the exact same rules apply, to the foreigner who marries a Filipina... You can still buy all the land you want to buy, (and) you still can't own the land...

Michaelle's statement is only half true, the true part is [ if you're a Philippino ] then "you" as in your own good generic self can buy and own land.... It's the only case that "you" can buy, and own, land, in the Philippines.

The rest; and please keep up... is exactly the same. You buy land for the perfect stranger "he or she" owns the land. You buy land for your wife, new acquaintance, or girlfriend, (she) owns the land... [Both] the wife, and the perfect stranger, have the (exact) same rights to the land you bought them... There is no difference when it comes down to the bare bones letter of the law.  They own it and you don't...

Vetretreat, this is not a court room, ladies and gentleman of the jury, we're not splitting frog hairs here, with language. But with Michaelle's words above, even though it's written as a cannot phrase or statement, about what one, can't do, the implied, or implication is, (you-can't-unless-you're-married; to a Philippino), "you" can't buy land...unless.

This is not difficult to read, see, or glean out. And, "to buy" or "to purchase" or "to acquire" in the Western world of finance, with regard to property, houses, cars,  massively implies "to own" (especially), when items are paid out in cash.

Michaelee, is an American Expat. Michaelee, sorry, no shot on you, I know your intentions are not to mislead. It's just the way the phrase is structured. Meanwhile, Vetretreat has pulled out his crowbar, and is prying all over the poor innocent structure, with said crowbar. And you see the results.

I think there's plenty of insinuation in the above statement; and such implication, fits comfortably within the definition of postulation. Postulation is not a negative form of speech or language, but it does clean up to various degrees the ever ambiguous insinuation.


" Michaelee, did not postulate as you say...He never assumed anything...He was correct by stating purchase land...He never mentioned who's name it would be in as far as ownership...if married to a Filipino he could " 


Again you are (playing) with semantics... You can buy land if you're married to a Philippino... Is what his (implication) states. As I said before, "to buy" paid out in cash, and then, not to own, what you buy, screams for clarity --- most Western's in this world do not understand, that buying expensive items with cash, and then, not owning what they paid for... Again needs clarity,... which was my goal, and I think most who read here can "see" and understand that. 

The statement in of itself if one were say in Philosophy class 101, is very ambiguous, and, if one is (working it...trying to read it as a lawyer, presenting a case) there is plenty of room to maneuver. One lawyer can imply what was being said, and the other lawyer can imply what was not, being said. But for the sake of common sense, there is little to be gained there... Much like the cat or dog who's chasing his tail, other than exercise, they don't get a whole lot out it, the tail always gets away.

Most of the writings here... that I read are based on common sense. And the common sense end of the statement, as stated by Michaelle, is you can't buy land, unless you are married to a Philippino. How you can derive that there is no implied, or postulated, meaning, is a bit of common sense stretch. A splitting of frog hairs, or perhaps a counting of hen's teeth, exercise, is in order, but I'll leave it to the more energetic.


" You stated in case of the Filipino's death the family would step in, claim and take the land...By making such a statement you yourself are POSTULATING...Even though it could possibly happen the Expat has many ways to protect oneself..."


Uh Oh,  we're back on to postulating!... Well let us review, definitions.

**A postulate is a basic assumption, a premise, that is accepted as true without proof.

I find postulation weak here... referencing your paragraph above where you stated I am [ POSTULATING ] this is more of  "theorem" territory. A theorem is something that can be proven based on the assumed...

Placing them side by side

**A postulate is a basic assumption, a premise, that is (accepted) as true {without proof}.

**A theorem is something that (can) be (proven) based on the assumed...

So clearly the theorem is stronger and lends into some experiences of others that I have personally witnessed. Proof...
Because I know of two cases where this has actually happened, both Expats lost all... it is not a postulate. Proof is over and above premise or assumption. Ha!! Look who's holding the reins in tight on words now. Oh well, what can I say; so there you have it, a single frog hair split three ways...pray tell. Things are getting pretty doggone fine around here.

Back to common sense, It's not a written law that they, the relatives, (must) move in and take the land. But it's well within the realm of possible, and the law favors the Philippino's... Please read your own statement above where you point out "even though it could happen" as to you pointing out the possibilities... OK moving on! 

Talking about ways to protect oneself from losing the land, that one has paid for; is a whole other can of worms. We were / are discussing Foreign Expats and land (ownership) in the Philippines, albeit definitely a roundabout discussion of such. 

I see lots of things you've written about "protection".  As to the point of, willing, through a legal property will, of land, to foreigner's,  logically, it would seem to circumvent the entire law about foreign land ownership, it's a real head scratcher...

However in any case,in the realm of land (ownership), where the rubber meets the road, the laws overwhelmingly favor Philippino's. ~~> Alas, you can't apply brakes to a volcano; one just stands by pretty much helplessly, and watches them blow.

I'll kindly take my exit,

All's well that ends well,

Always keep the faith,

Cheers.

It is very hard to argue your views when you have the education, talent and knowledge of using our complicated English language and the cleverness of using that same language to distort, twist the real meanings and goals of what the average LAYMAN Expat is trying to convey to all whom are seeking HELP and ADVICE which is what this site is all about...

I don't think "Expat.com" was meant to MATCH ONES WITS as to the realm of expertise in their command of the English language...I think it was meant for those seeking advice on a NAMED SUBJECT to get it from as many of the expat community, regardless of their educational background, and use any advice given after proper research... There will be those on this site who will have more experience and expertise as to the information being requested by the Expat...That is the information which should be considered, but not until one carefully researches all the pros and cons...

In your reply to Michaelee...You were basically striking fear into Expats by saying "relatives can(AND WILL)step in take the land" should the Filipino owner pass away... My reply to that was it was possible that could happen but there are ways to protect oneself..I should had ended that by saying "Protect oneself from the family members ever doing that"...The Usage of (AND WILL)is implying it undoubtedly will happen...You stated you have known two expats who have lost all; you should had said "(AND HAVE) stepped in and take all"

My question to you is: Did those two who lost all, have their Filipino spouse prepare a Living Trust naming them the executor of said trust and within that trust it was stated all real estate property would be sold to another Filipino and funds distributed to those within that trust...Did those two expats have their Filipino spouse make up a power of attorney naming them the AGENT to sell said real estate described in the deed(which is held in the Trust)...Did those two expats have their Filipino spouse, immediate relatives and Filipino witnesses sign a Promissory Note or Notes as to their indebtedness of said land to the Expat...Did those two Expats have their Filipino spouse draw up a Legal Will naming the Trust and those within that Trust as legal beneficiaries...Did those two expats purchase the house in their name and have a long term lease in force preventing them from being forced off the property...Did those two expats do anything to prevent a financial nightmare other than putting their trust in the Filipino spouse??????...

Please answer all the above!!!

Had those two expats done what I have mentioned above it is highly doubtful they would had lost all...The ones who would had lost many pesos would had been the family members trying to circumvent the legal documents drawn up according to PHILIPPINE LAW...That is why I had said previously: IT WOULD BE HIGHLY UNLIKELY, IF THE FAMILY WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO AFFORD IT; THEY WOULD RISK THEIR FUNDS TO GO AFTER LAND WHICH CAN BE RIGHTFULLY SOLD by "THE TRUST" and FUNDS WOULD BE HELD WITHIN "THE TRUST" TO BE DISTRIBUTED TO THE BENEFICIARIES WITHIN...The family members have no claim to any monies you and your spouse have acquired during a marriage...That would be like saying they could claim bank accounts which would be jointly held by you both..

I am not using "A PLAY OF WORDS" to discredit any of your statements...I am only stating some of the options an Expat can use to Protect himself should he choose to buy land in the name of his Filipino loved ones...It can be a good investment to purchase land and leave them a legacy to remember you by as well as financial security for your Filipino spouse and children should you have any...

In your next to the last para of your response you clearly have chosen to put words in my mouth!!...At no time did I mention a "PROPERTY WILL", of land, to foreigners"...And had I made such a statement it is true it would be circumventing Philippine Law... As you said this is not a court of law...If it were the attorneys would use a "PLAY OF WORDS" which may even confuse some judges...:/ Also their "Play of Words" would tear apart anything YOU or I would state...I don't even think any other Expat construed my Paragraph of Protecting Oneself in the same light as you have...

I ask you Ramblingroads, can you refrain from using a play of words which can and has confused many who only wish to get some good advice??...I'm not saying you yourself haven't given good advice...Even in your many postings your statements have plenty of merit which every Expat should take to heart...But in the same token what I have stated about the legal means to protect oneself also holds truth and merit worth investigating...

I also would like to say Mathematics is a Pure Science and the English language and its many definitions of words is not...I will not and can not hold a candle to you in the "PLAYING OF WORDS", but I can assure you I have many other areas of expertise which can be shared with this forum should they ever call on them...

Lastly, as I stated in my last response..I truly enjoy your responses to many of the Postings and I can learn from you...And once again I learned from this response as well...Further defining postulation(assumption) and theories which many mathematical equations are based upon...Hopefully, you have learned also...Everything in writing is "NOT WRITTEN IN STONE" but PURE MATHEMATICS is...

I am still keeping the faith as I know you are..FAITH in which I have written here today will still help any Expat wishing to have (not own)property without much fear of it being lost...I hope I ended this well..

Take Care

:cheers:

Greetings there fellow blogger. Well let us get right to it...


Vetretreat, wrote:
" It is very hard to argue your views when you have the education, talent and knowledge of using our complicated English language and the cleverness of using that same language to distort, twist the real meanings and goals of what the average LAYMAN Expat is trying to convey to all whom are seeking HELP and ADVICE which is what this site is all about..."

I'd be careful as to deciding what this site is all about, "The Site" is complicated and multifaceted.

Vetretreat:
" I don't think "Expat.com" was meant to MATCH ONES WITS as to the realm of expertise in their command of the English language...I think it was meant for those seeking advice on a NAMED SUBJECT to get it from as many of the expat community, regardless of their educational background, and use any advice given after proper research... There will be those on this site who will have more experience and expertise as to the information being requested by the Expat...That is the information which should be considered, but not until one carefully researches all the pros and cons..."

[ Again ] just as a reminder, "I'd be careful" as to (telling others) what this site is all about.... You seem invested in teaching me the finer points of The Expat.com.

Vetretreat:
"In your reply to Michaelee...You were basically striking fear into Expats by saying "relatives can(AND WILL)step in take the land" should the Filipino owner pass away... My reply to that was it was possible that could happen but there are ways to protect oneself..I should had ended that by saying "Protect oneself from the family members ever doing that"...The Usage of (AND WILL)is implying it undoubtedly will happen...You stated you have known two expats who have lost all; you should had said "(AND HAVE) stepped in and take all "

I do... and will say [ again ], the relatives, can, have, and will take all....It's just business. I'm certainly not saying every single time they will (take all) but it does happen, and Expats should tread this road with well informed caution. Business is business is business.  Like I said, it's not malice by the Philippino's it's just business...

Vetretreat:
"My question to you is: Did those two who lost all, have their Filipino spouse prepare a Living Trust naming them the executor of said trust and within that trust it was stated all real estate property would be sold to another Filipino and funds distributed to those within that trust...Did those two expats have their Filipino spouse make up a power of attorney naming them the AGENT to sell said real estate described in the deed(which is held in the Trust)...Did those two expats have their Filipino spouse, immediate relatives and Filipino witnesses sign a Promissory Note or Notes as to their indebtedness of said land to the Expat...Did those two Expats have their Filipino spouse draw up a Legal Will naming the Trust and those within that Trust as legal beneficiaries...Did those two expats purchase the house in their name and have a long term lease in force preventing them from being forced off the property...Did those two expats do anything to prevent a financial nightmare other than putting their trust in the Filipino spouse??????..."

Wow, what a rant! Just wow! It's hard for me to determine, exactly who has the scarier message. My telling them i beware, beware, beware, ] or your showing them what they can do to keep themselves safe.  As to all those questions...  I'd know more about their personal physical endowment size, from drinking beers and taking bathroom breaks together as we relieved ourselves of beer, than I would be able to answer all those questions.  Who, in the name of God's green earth would ask such pointed questions?  A very brave soul I think... You're stating to slip into outer-space here, sailing on solar winds...Most Expats I've known would tell "you" once it's none of your business, and the next time asked, they might slap the you know what of you.

Vetretreat:
"Please answer all the above!!!"

Vetretreat:
"Had those two expats done what I have mentioned above it is highly doubtful they would had lost all...The ones who would had lost many pesos would had been the family members trying to circumvent the legal documents drawn up according to PHILIPPINE LAW...That is why I had said previously: IT WOULD BE HIGHLY UNLIKELY, IF THE FAMILY WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO AFFORD IT; THEY WOULD RISK THEIR FUNDS TO GO AFTER LAND WHICH CAN BE RIGHTFULLY SOLD by "THE TRUST" and FUNDS WOULD BE HELD WITHIN "THE TRUST" TO BE DISTRIBUTED TO THE BENEFICIARIES WITHIN...The family members have no claim to any monies you and your spouse have acquired during a marriage...That would be like saying they could claim bank accounts which would be jointly held by you both.."

[ You Sir, ] are not listening!! Your rant, goes on (and) on.. as if you're following law(s) in a First World Country, the Philippines ain't it... When dealing with Philippine courts, (nobody cares) about skinny papers... The courts are concerned, and care, about the Filipina, and Philippino's.  And if you are ever unfortunate enough to end up there, [ in the courts ] you're going to get an extremely rude "awakening".  It's (their country) and legalese means nothing to them...you, as in "we" are merely visitors, we're just passing through. The naivete of "visitors" passing through the Philippines  is / are legion.  Foreigner's are forever talking about laws and what one can do... Meanwhile Philippino's roll their eyes, and with good reason. 

Vetretreat:
"I am not using "A PLAY OF WORDS" to discredit any of your statements...I am only stating some of the options an Expat can use to Protect himself should he choose to buy land in the name of his Filipino loved ones...It can be a good investment to purchase land and leave them a legacy to remember you by as well as financial security for your Filipino spouse and children should you have any..."

I'm not debating the good verse the bad, the humanitarianism; and or  altruistic, qualities of Expats. That's a whole other issue!

Vetretreat:
"In your next to the last para of your response you clearly have chosen to put words in my mouth!!...At no time did I mention a "PROPERTY WILL", of land, to foreigners"...And had I made such a statement it is true it would be circumventing Philippine Law... As you said this is not a court of law...If it were the attorneys would use a "PLAY OF WORDS" which may even confuse some judges...:/ Also their "Play of Words" would tear apart anything YOU or I would state...I don't even think any other Expat construed my Paragraph of Protecting Oneself in the same light as you have..."

Oh, I see, you were actually stating that when the Filipina or Philippino's who once they've sold the land would actually send (money) to the Expats, past wives' as in previous sons and daughters from other marriages'? In the West!! Dear Brother, I'm only new to the forum, I'm not new to the world...

Vetretreat:
"I ask you Ramblingroads, can you refrain from using a play of words which can and has confused many who only wish to get some good advice??...I'm not saying you yourself haven't given good advice...Even in your many postings your statements have plenty of merit which every Expat should take to heart...But in the same token what I have stated about the legal means to protect oneself also holds truth and merit worth investigating..."

Here you go (again) I think this is number three.. In one post no less, keeping up, that's (three times) where you've decided what's proper and what's not proper, to post here on the Expat.com. Well what can I say, it's a free country, (but), this is a censored blog? Or is it simply moral high ground that you've decided you own?

Vetretreat:
"I also would like to say Mathematics is a Pure Science and the English language and its many definitions of words is not...I will not and can not hold a candle to you in the "PLAYING OF WORDS", but I can assure you I have many other areas of expertise which can be shared with this forum should they ever call on them..."

Mathematics is your friend, used in the Layman sense, it takes away the play on words.. It clarifies innuendo, insinuation, nuance, and legal bureaucratic speak, things are placed in order and laid out so they are easy to understand. We all need mathematics at various levels and functions to go about our daily lives.

Vetretreat:
"Lastly, as I stated in my last response..I truly enjoy your responses to many of the Postings and I can learn from you...And once again I learned from this response as well...Further defining postulation(assumption) and theories which many mathematical equations are based upon...Hopefully, you have learned also...Everything in writing is "NOT WRITTEN IN STONE" but PURE MATHEMATICS is..."

Ha, nothing is written in stone, except...Expats can't own land. Dude, how could I resist that  one, I'm human you know.

Vetretreat:
"I am still keeping the faith as I know you are..FAITH in which I have written here today will still help any Expat wishing to have (not own)property without much fear of it being lost...I hope I ended this well.."

"Take Care"

Dear Brother, you're still chasing your tail, about Philippino Law, but the ending is OK...

I'm officially handing it over to you, when you said, "my writings looked as if written to "strike fear" in Expats, I see and saw, I've been successful... That's exactly what I wanted to do. Fear is a great motivator, it makes people think things through more carefully, thus my goal.

Take care, be safe,

Keep up the good work.

Ramblingroads :

Greetings there fellow blogger. Well let us get right to it...

Vetretreat:
"In your reply to Michaelee...You were basically striking fear into Expats by saying "relatives can(AND WILL)step in take the land" should the Filipino owner pass away... My reply to that was it was possible that could happen but there are ways to protect oneself..I should had ended that by saying "Protect oneself from the family members ever doing that"...The Usage of (AND WILL)is implying it undoubtedly will happen...You stated you have known two expats who have lost all; you should had said "(AND HAVE) stepped in and take all "

I do... and will say [ again ], the relatives, can, have, and will take all....It's just business. I'm certainly not saying every single time they will (take all) but it does happen, and Expats should tread this road with well informed caution. Business is business is business.  Like I said, it's not malice by the Philippino's it's just business...

Vetretreat:
"My question to you is: Did those two who lost all, have their Filipino spouse prepare a Living Trust naming them the executor of said trust and within that trust it was stated all real estate property would be sold to another Filipino and funds distributed to those within that trust...Did those two expats have their Filipino spouse make up a power of attorney naming them the AGENT to sell said real estate described in the deed(which is held in the Trust)...Did those two expats have their Filipino spouse, immediate relatives and Filipino witnesses sign a Promissory Note or Notes as to their indebtedness of said land to the Expat...Did those two Expats have their Filipino spouse draw up a Legal Will naming the Trust and those within that Trust as legal beneficiaries...Did those two expats purchase the house in their name and have a long term lease in force preventing them from being forced off the property...Did those two expats do anything to prevent a financial nightmare other than putting their trust in the Filipino spouse??????..."

Wow, what a rant! Just wow! It's hard for me to determine, exactly who has the scarier message. My telling them i beware, beware, beware, ] or your showing them what they can do to keep themselves safe.  As to all those questions...  I'd know more about their personal physical endowment size, from drinking beers and taking bathroom breaks together as we relieved ourselves of beer, than I would be able to answer all those questions.  Who, in the name of God's green earth would ask such pointed questions?  A very brave soul I think... You're stating to slip into outer-space here, sailing on solar winds...Most Expats I've known would tell "you" once it's none of your business, and the next time asked, they might slap the you know what of you.

Vetretreat:
"In your next to the last para of your response you clearly have chosen to put words in my mouth!!...At no time did I mention a "PROPERTY WILL", of land, to foreigners"...And had I made such a statement it is true it would be circumventing Philippine Law... As you said this is not a court of law...If it were the attorneys would use a "PLAY OF WORDS" which may even confuse some judges...:/ Also their "Play of Words" would tear apart anything YOU or I would state...I don't even think any other Expat construed my Paragraph of Protecting Oneself in the same light as you have..."

Oh, I see, you were actually stating that when the Filipina or Philippino's who once they've sold the land would actually send (money) to the Expats, past wives' as in previous sons and daughters from other marriages'? In the West!! Dear Brother, I'm only new to the forum, I'm not new to the world...



I'm officially handing it over to you, when you said, "my writings looked as if written to "strike fear" in Expats, I see and saw, I've been successful... That's exactly what I wanted to do. Fear is a great motivator, it makes people think things through more carefully, thus my goal.

Take care, be safe,

Keep up the good work.

I give up!!!

   All expats take all what "Rambling On" has said to heart...You have no shot of controlling the land you buy for your Filipino loved ones; so be prepared to "give up all" should your Filipino spouse pass away even if you do follow my advice to have a "Living Trust"(preferably an "Irrevocable" one)naming the expat the executor, a "Power of Attorney" making the Expat "Agent" to sell said land of which funds would be deposited in the name of the TRUST, any "Promissory Notes", a "Legal Will" in the name of the Trust excluding all other family members and only designating beneficiaries of "her choice" including children and the Expat, a "Long Term Lease" guaranteeing the expat the rights to reside on said land for the long term, all of which drawn up and was the "WILL" and "WISHES" of your DECEASED FILIPINO spouse...

   Just view all the above mentioned "Legal Documents" drawn up by the deceased as obstacles to "slow down" and at "great legal expense" by family members to have a Filipino Judge overturn and dismiss all "Legal Documents" which will allow the eventual takeover by family members who will have "MORE POWER" than the "Legally Named Beneficiaries" in the Trust whether they are "Dual Citizen" children, the Expat himself and any his legal children of his own citizenship and lastly "A DECEASED FILIPINO HAS NO FURTHER RIGHTS ONCE THEY DIE AS TO THEIR WISHES TO DISPOSE OF THEIR PROPERTY AS THEY AND THEY ALONE DEEM FIT"...

    If you believe the above could and will happen than by all means take the advice of Rambling On and never buy property in the Philippines unless you are prepared to walk away from all the properties you have purchased...But if you believe as I do the paragraph above mentioning the "inevitable take over by excluded family members" is a "Crock of S#%*" than once again I say do your own research of all mentioned documents and if you come to the conclusion they are sufficient obstacles to "AVOID" an unwanted takeover than perhaps your mind shall be more at ease once the decision is made to pull the trigger on releasing the necessary funds to buy property for yourself and your Filipino loved ones...

    Now let us get to the paragraphs quoted:

Response to Paragraph 1
    Ramblingroads, your response at least clarifies now that family members "MAY take all" and not "can and Will take all"..I agree all Expats should take extreme caution also unless they don't love money...

Response to Paragraph 2
    Your response here is entertaining to say the least..First of all I don't think I would want to be scoping out the equipment of a fellow expat for the fear he may think I am GAY and may take offense especially when alcohol is a factor which may drive him to be aggressive and slap the .... out of me right there in the JOHN...Secondly, if I am drinking with them while discussing our negative views on life and they just happen to reveal to me their spouse or her family had just taken all while still crying in their beer looking for sympathy...My response would be one of bewilderment with an attempt to console them and I would move onto the question what legal documents did he have to protect himself...If he chooses not to answer for fear of me thinking him an IDIOT then I would most assuredly drop the conversation for fear of pushing his buttons; but should he began to reveal or inquire about documents then the conversation becomes more informative and interesting to say the least.."Can I Buy You Another Beer" type of conversation...

    Also, in this response you made no mention of any of the documents I mentioned to whether or not they have merit...As a result I am going to ASSUME your knowledge and the POWER of them especially that of an "Irrevocable Living Trust" is limited...

Response to Paragraph 3
    Ramblingroads, you must had one too many beers when you responded here..LOL...Once again you "PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH"..At no time did I say "Filipinos would actually send money to Expats...What I said was "All funds from any sold property within the TRUST would be distributed to all BENEFICIARIES as was the Wish and Will of the DECEASED FILIPINO SPOUSE"

Response to Paragraph 4
     My response to "striking fear" and "proceed with caution"...Yes it is a great motivator and I can appreciate it...I myself at no time said one should not approach financial matters without caution...By approaching such matters with extreme caution can help to limit any those FEARS to a minimum and allow one to sleep a little better at night...

    I do find one thing very interesting!! There has been no responses by any others on the subject of land ownership, especially from real estate brokers, Filipinos knowledgeable of their laws, etc; SINCE I have introduced the possible DOCUMENTS which could be used as barriers to prevent those Scammers, Con Artists, Real Estate brokers and Attorneys who may collude with those who wish to RIP OFF us Expats...You Ramblingroads are the only one who have entered any responses since these documents were introduced for the first time on the subject...DON'T YOU YOURSELF FIND THAT INTERESTING...My theory is those who do wish to take advantage are very upset that such documents are even mentioned here and they have moved on to greener pastures...JUST A THOUGHT...

   Probably everyone reading are being entertained and hopefully finding our responses informative and helpful but it would sure be nice to hear some feedback which we have addressed on the subject from some of the rest of you out there...

   It's now in your court..

Best Wishes and Take Care Always

I though you said "I give up."

Vetretreat:

I don't find it odd at all that no one has waded in about the legal stuff, we are batting back and forth, not in the least.  The Philippines is not a country of laws, as we people in the West know and understand. There's too many loose ends.... I keep trying to tell you this, but I'm coming to the conclusion it's hopeless.  Read about the Filipina's trying to leave the country and (laws).... And on the subject of land, it's far worse.  And perhaps some of the readers here have had personal experiences themselves or know of an Expat or Philippino, who have lost things from (enabled) relatives. The other end is as I keep telling you it's not malice, it's business.... I think the Philippino community understands this you seem to be the one struggling...

I've bought land in the Philippines, with all your ranting, I've probably got more experience with the process than you...

Just sorting out deeds, and wondering about titles, real, false, non-existent... who actually owns the land, is a dizzying job. Yes, like a dog chasing his tail, or listening to you rant about "paper".  When the paper is finally bestowed in ones hand, it's chalk full of "ifs, ands, buts, where's when's and whys".

And your decidedly inclined death grip --- on being correct about Courts; Morality; and even Sexual Preferences; no less. Gosh the power of Thee. Who could stand against thee....
My sense of the fundamental issue here is, [you seem more interested in (being right), than you are in getting it right.] Are you sure you're cut out for this kind of work...

I see you're preaching to the "tribe" (OK everybody)... you say, blah, blah, blah, I guess you're referring to the "Vetretreat Fan Club" relax, take a deep breath, they can make up their own minds, without "a director", telling them what and how to think... You behave as if the readers of these post hang on your every word. Dear brother; nay, nay, nay, they don't...hang on your, or my.. words. 

My (own) ideas, and important (actual) experiences of life... which often enough, are far removed, from (theoretical) ideals. I've long since stopped with demands, that the things I say are (exactly right), and therefore, everyone else, should be in agreement with me... Just because of how wonderful and knowledgeable I am.... The (spirit) of the law educates and elucidates, the (absolute) letter of the law stifles and clogs; no one lives by the absolute letter of the law, not even The Law itself...

The readers here are like the rest of us, they have a very healthy skepticism of things written here, and rightfully so.  Skepticism, is the driving force of blogs like these. Because it's so easy to say, or inflate things, in cyber space, like "I drove a tank, and held a General's rank"... you know how the song goes... from Blood Sweat & Tears, and the Rolling Stones.  One can be almost anything within reason -- in cyber space.

What I say here; is from personal experiences, experiences of friends, and experiences of acquaintance(s). Please note the word (experiences). These acquaintances, have  mostly been Expat shop owners of bars, restaurants, hotels, and the like. A (very good) source of real-time information. If people (here) find my information useful, good! If they don't find it useful that's fine too. They are of free will and they are entitled to their own decisions.  I'm not going to brow-beat, bludgeon, chastise, or cheap shot; (Gay) so American isn't it.. Those that don't agree with me... I'm not [vested] in pushing, demanding, or (cornering others), to tow my line of thought, beliefs, reasoning's, morals, or values... it's never been my style. See ethnocentrism, that, is not me...

Def: [acquaintance] Knowledge of a person acquired by a relationship less intimate than friendship. A relationship based on such knowledge:

I sometimes use (loaded sentences) as in...The relatives can and will move in and take... The (idea) is not an absolute...most of the readers here understand this, it's a literary device, used to drive a strong  message.  The idea that the relatives can and do.... is the message --- again most here understand that... You seem to clutch or grab a hold, and hang on to a word or phrase like a bulldog on a gut wagon. Let the information breath, let the meaning come through, "irrevocable" sounds more like your mindset, than something in Philippine law.

Large swaths of the Visayas, were declared natural parks, by a past Philippine President, you can't even get a (legal title) to land in parts of it, (even with) a Philippino buying it... There is no TITILE, read a bit about Malapascua... What happened to the foreign investors there, bunches of them, oh wait, you say!  Did they have their "papers" straight? You can believe, or (not believe)... it does not change anything, these people weren't fools, some being in the Philippines, and running businesses for twenty years plus. 

You rave endlessly about "The Legality", some people here just own things... Maybe it was written down on a match book cover. Oh, you say, just do a "title search", ROFLMAO, yeah right!!  If, you ever go to the BIR, to actually deal with filing the paper work for "buying land", and start  looking where things should be, or should have been, but the bribe was weak, or it was never filed, or the signature from 100 years ago is missing, or "they" didn't pay taxes for twenty years, and now the government owns the land; but you can fix that with a 100Kphp, just give it to me says the clerk and I'll take care of it for you..  etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...

Moving away from letters on a keyboard, there's other kinds of education waiting. If it goes to the courts it's a legal nightmare to prove, it can easily be years and money spent. Hum, I wonder why this is like this, LQQK at the paper trail dear brother, Sherlock Holmes would have trouble sorting it out. Philippino' Lawyers, Judges, and Courts; deem this as heaven sent for them right here on earth.

I also own an apartment in the Philippines, who knows, maybe I actually, really do own it... Unless a perfect stranger walks in one day and says it his, and says his relatives had no right to sell it, (then) we go to the courts!  Oh no, you say! Something like this could never happen, tell that to my friend who lost his bar, in the exact same fashion, in Angeles City, he was mauled by the legal system, or more properly stated the lack there of.. a legal system, the poor guy even ended up spending 15 days in jail. 

Not all of us, are married to a Filipina, not all us have children with a Filipina, not all of us wish to be married, or have children. That does not mean "we" are, misleading, deceitful, fear-mongering, people, who prey on the insecurities and innocence of Expats.  Simply because, "we" don't agree with (cyber lawyers) of whom rant with religious fervor, about *paper* in a country where bribes and circumventing the law is standard operating procedure.

I will not, nor would I ever, say or deny that paper work isn't  important it is, of course it is, no one I know has (ever) argued that it's not important. It legitimizes (certain) aspects, of at least theoretical feelings of safety, "ownership" and offers varying levels of (psychological comfort) to the buyer. However, despite comforting of "paper" held in the hand, it still  does not change the fundamental [Rubicon]*... You (can) buy it , but you (can't) own it; and you can't take it back once bought... unless the Philippino agrees.

Def: Rubicon* A point of no return.

There's also a thing I'll just call it Authority creep, or Ownership creep. It happens as the Expat's" love, with his beautiful Filipina begins to wear simply as the (new), wears off the relationship. Then one day the Expat begins to notice his declining authority, suddenly it dawns on him that his heretofore, somewhat obedient, subservient, Filipina, has started asserting her mental will, ideas, and arguments on par... and even (above) the wishes of her Expat provider. 

This is when the Filipina comes to the realization of her power; that she (owns) almost all, of everything;  he doesn't speak the language  and usually, he doesn't even have receipts for the structural things he's paid for, the Expat, is merely an occupier; without real rights to the assets... A changing of dynamics takes place --- and it becomes an un-wanted reality with a reversal of roles; the Filipina is the new boss, and she has no problem making it crystal clear who runs the show.

How to fix these scenarios I think Vetretreat is better prepared and has deeper understanding than I, his paper rattling "song" of security is impressive; and his "irrevocable" idea, is a beauty almost beyond measure.

But in the meantime,

Marriage helps, especially children (from the Expat), this is a fairly strong way to help anchor things down.  Leashing seems fairly (strong), and I've heard good things from Expats who have used them, but as always, [beware, beware, beware, it's only paper and you're a rich foreigner] all foreigners in the Philippines are expected to (give)... and pay more.  But be happy, mostly I am happy, otherwise I would leave.

I write here, because of experiences; what I've seen, or has happened to me, or people / friends I've been close to, and  some acquaintances... My Path, is real, I've (lived) in those countries... Like I said, I'm new to this forum; I'm not new to the world. Agreement or disagreement, well what can one say, I liked it.

As for you Vetretreat, I know you liked it; your post replies to me keep getting sweeter n sweeter all the time... soon "the ants will be coming", keep up the good work.

I look for no support here, from the forum members, or for them to step in and take sides, I stand on my own two legs with my musings. But they are cases of real life events.... and yes, that does matter.


Stay safe,

Always keep the faith.

period as foreigner you have no rights at all in the Philippines even you married and have plenty of children. the only rights you have is as long you have money then you have rights. its money talk

Ramblingroads, you should be into writing books, or better yet political commentaries for newspapers or start up the MAD MAGAZINE again...I would give up my daytime job if I had your writing ability...I am totally overwhelmed, worn out and my head is spinning...

I have said my peace in all my previous responses...I do agree with you about the corruption in the country and it could be possible to do as you say...My only intent is to give any Expat, determined to buy land, legal obstacles to which would make it more difficult for an immediate take over of properties he wishes to own with his Filipino loved ones...Nothing More...I am right by making such a statement and have never said it is written in stone to do so....

One last question..You say you have bought or currently own land here; if so how are you faring with it and did you have any(not all) of the docs I mentioned in place and did you buy through a corp or an individual Filipino acquaintance???

Take Care..

I have been in this country for awhile      i love the idea  some days of buying land   or even an apartment....   but  i havent   not sure if i ever will

We  us   Expats   have no  none  didly squat rights in this country       sure  some people will say  all sorts of things about  how u can own land or a business     or your wife can  or  just make a corporation   
Dont.     just bloody don't        if u do  u will  wish u didnt.
U dont want to buy here  not just because of the bloody laws   u don't want to buy here  as  people get sick of u ( almost 99% of the time) 
I know so many guys that sell their shit cheap   just to get out of their dream home/area     
If u want to own land  a business   whatever     do it at home    make dollars      not bloody peso's 
same amount of work    100 times the outcome   

lease   is great   if the person u are leasing off actually own the bloody place 
Once every  few months  i look into condo's   and land     once every few months  i hit myself in the head  and ask myself what i am thinking       
People here things here    its different.
Here is how it works   u got money   awesome  we like u     u dont give it out   hmmmm   not so much  like u now.

when u live in an area for longer and longer  this scenario  gets worse and worse       
u can jump thru as many papers and legal loopholes  u can want     lawyers  love this shit    they  like money after all.

u speak to any guy that has lived here for longer then a heart beat   they all say the same thing     just rent mate     just rent    or lease  if u feel  adventurous      do not buy     
always have an exit plan    if u need to make money   go bloody home

I am not a great writer    I just want to save anyone  from doing anything  stupid
Do not do illegal stupid crap   as this will end up going face down with u  with no coin to show for it.
Do not do anything in this country  u would not do in your own country   
  there  its said      that's how it is
so what  u can't afford to buy property  in your own country    well    thats is ok         
get it out of your head  that  u are going to buy property here    as   u can't
end of story.   rent is cheap   
rent is easy
rent is legal
there are a lot of other countries in the world a forienger  can  own land      if u got your heart on throwing away your money    then do it
sure i have heard a few people  doing ok   with property here.
Ill say that again  a few.    well  i know a lot of people  and those few are   very few and far between       i know alot of people that have lost business's  lost houses   lost properties   lost everything           
we have no rights.   we are cash cows( sorry to say)      not every person thinks this  that is true     but  more then most do

get it in your head     if u can afford to waste money  then  good for u    me    i like to keep it wear i can use it  if i need it.
best thing about renting......    if i dont like my neighbors  i move

Spot on!  I know a lot of entrepreneurs who have been in the Philippines for over 10 years and are doing very well. None of them have bought property. Most rent a nice house and actually spent quite a bit of money refurbishing it for their own use. But if you stay in it for over 3 years, its worth it. Rent is cheap.

dhnindc :

Spot on!  I know a lot of entrepreneurs who have been in the Philippines for over 10 years and are doing very well. None of them have bought property. Most rent a nice house and actually spent quite a bit of money refurbishing it for their own use. But if you stay in it for over 3 years, its worth it. Rent is cheap.

That's what I do is rent...100sqm W/garage right on the beach for 10k...Don't plan to buy a house anytime soon but will probably buy land for my beautiful wife should we decide to live in this country permanently, but only if I have the documents I had mentioned in my previous replies...Reason being property values here just keep soaring because the area is continuously improving and land would be a nice nest egg for her and our children when I move on to the next world..I do know one Aussie here who is a builder/architect who owns several beach front lots under his separated spouses name and has made a lot of money off his ventures...He has many of the same documents in place which I have mentioned and has had no problems thus far...

Question for you dhnindc about the business people you know who are doing very well...What types of business do they do and approximately how much income from the low to the highs do they make monthly or annually??? JUST CURIOUS!!

Most are in construction or mining. Support services (project managers) or selling equipment to miners. Not sure what they take home, but one mentioned around US$10-14k per month, before taxes.

Flying Fox :

period as foreigner you have no rights at all in the Philippines even you married and have plenty of children. the only rights you have is as long you have money then you have rights. its money talk

Hi there Fox...

You got it right when you say "money talks"...That is why you always let your spouse know there is a lot more in your homeland for her to have during and after you're gone...Just keep the bait out there whether fiction or fact...That way she will think twice before LEAVING YOU and TAKING ALL which you have acquired in her country...Anyone who trust their spouse 100% had better get a wake up call...

I notice you are on Mindoro as I am also...Can you tell me what it is like living in San Jose??...My wife and I were going to come there for a visit soon...I understand it is the sugar cane capitol of the Philippines..We even looked at some homes there for rent with option to buy...How is the Nautica Hwy crossing the mountains from Oriental to Occidental Mindoro??

Thanks..

Flying Fox :

period as foreigner you have no rights at all in the Philippines even you married and have plenty of children. the only rights you have is as long you have money then you have rights. its money talk

************************************

Yes sir, the children do not give to Expats a single right to assets --- I meant their role can help with strengthening the social-cultural bonds, of the Expat, by helping to tie him with, and into the immediate or surrounding community. But it does not change anything with regard to "ownership" of assets.

Yes money talks, and when the money goes, we go; "walk". However sometimes, there are those that fall through the cracks of their safety net, and go to work "locally", in the Philippines, illegally I suppose, and make local wages and he still manages to keeps his wife / girlfriend / family, together. This case is exceedingly rare at best, because usually when the money dries up the love dries up too... So true, money money money.

I've seen a former restaurant and bar owner Expat laying in the ditch, with Philippino's walking past him, as if he wasn't there. It's a very tough place, the Philippines, a little bit of money in pocket softens, and pushes an illusion or a non-reality based view of life's circumstances; and allows Expats to feel they are safely above the fray. They decidedly are not above it...and when the money goes the Expat's usefulness goes --- the Philippines has got all the poor it needs -- Expats do not do well if and when they try to join them.

Thanks for the comment it was straight and to the point. Much like the cleaver you use to cut away the fat with, when you're preparing good foods, there at your business. One day I'll get the chance and stop by there, to pick up some of those sausages, man do they ever sound good...

Stay safe,

Always keep the faith.

vetretreat :

Ramblingroads, you should be into writing books, or better yet political commentaries for newspapers or start up the MAD MAGAZINE again...I would give up my daytime job if I had your writing ability...I am totally overwhelmed, worn out and my head is spinning...

I have said my peace in all my previous responses...I do agree with you about the corruption in the country and it could be possible to do as you say...My only intent is to give any Expat, determined to buy land, legal obstacles to which would make it more difficult for an immediate take over of properties he wishes to own with his Filipino loved ones...Nothing More...I am right by making such a statement and have never said it is written in stone to do so....

One last question..You say you have bought or currently own land here; if so how are you faring with it and did you have any(not all) of the docs I mentioned in place and did you buy through a corp or an individual Filipino acquaintance???

Take Care..

Vetretreat:

Thank you for the kind words about writing and such.  Disagreement is good, as we all get more out of it, at least that's my take. An echo chamber might be more comforting but it's not what's needed or called for on this type of discussion. The stakes are quite high when discussing Expat assets, as most are living off of retirement, and as mentioned before "they've" spent a lifetime earning their homes and small investments. Handling money is so very important because there isn't a whole lot of time for those of retirement age to start over, and recover; from what was seemingly good at the time... but still turned out to be bad decisions.

As to the land I bought, no I don't have most of the things you have mentioned in place.  I've been careful, and have a fairly good hedged bet, however, hedged or no hedged, I'm under no illusions as to what my real rights are... None! 

But there is something you once referred to in another of your post. Where you stated, (paraphrasing), "that following my advice one is not to invest in land or such assets, unless one is prepared to simply walk away." You hit the nail directly on the head with that statement. And to date, it is and has been my attitude with the things I've bought so far...I can walk away without having to look over my shoulder and thinking about foolishness. Hurtful yes, a little damaged pride yes, but the economic impact is small, and won't affect my life in a negative way, and thus I'm at peace with my decision.

I'm faring fine, BUT, if I decided to go big I'd lease the land that I've bought, even though it sounds funny, to lease something one has already paid for... but hey, it's a crazy country.

"Thatawesomeguy" mentioned this in one of his post on this thread, to buy it and then, "lease lease lease" it idea / technique, as a "safer" hedge, to maintain control, of assets. I'd already thought about this "idea" but it's nice to hear others saying and thinking the same thing, about ways  to work some advantage into the precarious business culture of Foreigners in the Philippines.. That's why it was useful for me to hash it out with you. I did learn from you and others here...
 
A semblance of sanity factored into the madness is, the people I want to protect would still be protected... Even though my name is on deeds and filed in courthouses and such I know that it don't mean much... so a lease (with all the bells and whistles...) would be mandatory for me to take on a serious commitment of work and investment that I'm not willing to walk away from. Or in business terms I can't afford to walk away from.

So leasing the land from myself and partners, with the partners not having (any) control... (until either me, or the lease expires), of the business.  And though the convoluted, but real, logic; everyone is still taken care of. I have control and if something happened to me, the land would not be taken away from those that I wish to ultimately have the land, but I don't want to give it over to them now...and I damned sure don't want to leave any open door, where if push came to shove, they could just take all.

Hopefully, I have twenty to thirty good years left, we can all profit together or maintain some economic stability, without the threat of changing winds of new loves, old loves, marry, remarry, un-marry, lust, desire, jealousy, and whatever else comes and goes in a twenty to thirty year commitment of (life).

I would not make the investment and still allow them (any) power, or control over any aspect of the land or business.  Their stake would be that eventually... as things follow the normal course of history, well "we" don't live forever, (yet). And of course monetary benefit depending on my ongoing levels of success, the better I can take care of myself, the better I can selectively... take care of others.

Take care, be safe,

Always keep the faith.

My Skypeadress (Rudvikros) cellNr. 0920287250 letz talk Viktor

Flying Fox :

My Skypeadress (Rudvikros) cellNr. 0920287250 letz talk Viktor

your cell number has only 9 digits...

Ramblingroads :
vetretreat :

Ramblingroads, you should be into writing books, or better yet political commentaries for newspapers or start up the MAD MAGAZINE again...I would give up my daytime job if I had your writing ability...I am totally overwhelmed, worn out and my head is spinning...

I have said my peace in all my previous responses...I do agree with you about the corruption in the country and it could be possible to do as you say...My only intent is to give any Expat, determined to buy land, legal obstacles to which would make it more difficult for an immediate take over of properties he wishes to own with his Filipino loved ones...Nothing More...I am right by making such a statement and have never said it is written in stone to do so....

One last question..You say you have bought or currently own land here; if so how are you faring with it and did you have any(not all) of the docs I mentioned in place and did you buy through a corp or an individual Filipino acquaintance???

Take Care..

Vetretreat:

Thank you for the kind words about writing and such.  Disagreement is good, as we all get more out of it, at least that's my take. An echo chamber might be more comforting but it's not what's needed or called for on this type of discussion. The stakes are quite high when discussing Expat assets, as most are living off of retirement, and as mentioned before "they've" spent a lifetime earning their homes and small investments. Handling money is so very important because there isn't a whole lot of time for those of retirement age to start over, and recover; from what was seemingly good at the time... but still turned out to be bad decisions.

As to the land I bought, no I don't have most of the things you have mentioned in place.  I've been careful, and have a fairly good hedged bet, however, hedged or no hedged, I'm under no illusions as to what my real rights are... None! 

But there is something you once referred to in another of your post. Where you stated, (paraphrasing), "that following my advice one is not to invest in land or such assets, unless one is prepared to simply walk away." You hit the nail directly on the head with that statement. And to date, it is and has been my attitude with the things I've bought so far...I can walk away without having to look over my shoulder and thinking about foolishness. Hurtful yes, a little damaged pride yes, but the economic impact is small, and won't affect my life in a negative way, and thus I'm at peace with my decision.

I'm faring fine, BUT, if I decided to go big I'd lease the land that I've bought, even though it sounds funny, to lease something one has already paid for... but hey, it's a crazy country.

"Thatawesomeguy" mentioned this in one of his post on this thread, to buy it and then, "lease lease lease" it idea / technique, as a "safer" hedge, to maintain control, of assets. I'd already thought about this "idea" but it's nice to hear others saying and thinking the same thing, about ways  to work some advantage into the precarious business culture of Foreigners in the Philippines.. That's why it was useful for me to hash it out with you. I did learn from you and others here...
 
A semblance of sanity factored into the madness is, the people I want to protect would still be protected... Even though my name is on deeds and filed in courthouses and such I know that it don't mean much... so a lease (with all the bells and whistles...) would be mandatory for me to take on a serious commitment of work and investment that I'm not willing to walk away from. Or in business terms I can't afford to walk away from.

So leasing the land from myself and partners, with the partners not having (any) control... (until either me, or the lease expires), of the business.  And though the convoluted, but real, logic; everyone is still taken care of. I have control and if something happened to me, the land would not be taken away from those that I wish to ultimately have the land, but I don't want to give it over to them now...and I damned sure don't want to leave any open door, where if push came to shove, they could just take all.

Hopefully, I have twenty to thirty good years left, we can all profit together or maintain some economic stability, without the threat of changing winds of new loves, old loves, marry, remarry, un-marry, lust, desire, jealousy, and whatever else comes and goes in a twenty to thirty year commitment of (life).

I would not make the investment and still allow them (any) power, or control over any aspect of the land or business.  Their stake would be that eventually... as things follow the normal course of history, well "we" don't live forever, (yet). And of course monetary benefit depending on my ongoing levels of success, the better I can take care of myself, the better I can selectively... take care of others.

Take care, be safe,

Always keep the faith.

As you mentioned in this reply about leasing...In my previous replies I had mentioned to have a lease in place...Hopefully you have at least that in your current property ownership...

Also in your reply to Flyingfox...You mentioned when the money dries up so does the love...I believe that to be true in any culture including the USA... IN most societies lack of funds is usually the number one factor which brings about divorce...Unless the spouse is such a Simpleton with tunnel vision and sees no other options but to stay with the relationship or their love is so passionate their belief is "Love Conquers All"..

:cheers:

I'll let you know.

Its a country made up of multiple islands.....you want the name of builders and materials locations? Where? On which island? to build in what style? You may need to decide where you might settle, and then do some research..Google is ur friend :)

fodder :

Its a country made up of multiple islands.....you want the name of builders and materials locations? Where? On which island? to build in what style? You may need to decide where you might settle, and then do some research..Google is ur friend :)

It's a bit of a bogus post, but it did generate some interesting teachable comments.

Thatawesomeguy:
" Once every  few months  i look into condo's   and land     once every few months  i hit myself in the head  and ask myself what i am thinking "

**********************************

This is also a good description of my actions / thoughts too. Sometimes I feel strongly about it, as in yes, just get on with it... and then... I think, what the hell am I thinking. It's a mixed bag of ups and downs.

But what is an Expat to do... I don't want to go back to my country, I left my country because I was ready to be somewhere else. And then the years, the time does matter, because we all intrinsically are forced to think about how many years are left, whether they be good ones, bad ones, or just plain ugly ones, the-years... Most of us ain't 18 years, or even the aged, and old, 28 years anymore.

Fifty eight years, sixty eight years, ah, now you're getting somewhere...

I'm not the kind of personality, of just gazing and grazing, the days away. Meaning I'm not really interested in "Proper Retirement". I need things to do, to occupy my mind... Alcohol, cigarettes, and the fantasy dreams of beautiful Filipinas  all lined up in a row waiting for wonderful me, has not worked. I mean they're not waiting...  Maybe I'd be better, if it wasn't just a dream of all those Filipinas.

People do negotiate minefields, for reasons known and unknown. But both must be worth it... Otherwise why on God's green earth would they do it? Crazy don't work! Crazy people are often pretty good at killing others but they mostly prefer not to hurt themselves.

Ah, the simple life, it ain't so simple...

Ramblingroads :

I'm not the kind of personality, of just gazing and grazing, the days away. Meaning I'm not really interested in "Proper Retirement". I need things to do, to occupy my mind... Alcohol, cigarettes, and the fantasy dreams of beautiful Filipinas  all lined up in a row waiting for wonderful me, has not worked. I mean they're not waiting...  Maybe I'd be better, if it wasn't just a dream of all those Filipinas.

People do negotiate minefields, for reasons known and unknown. But both must be worth it... Otherwise why on God's green earth would they do it? Crazy don't work! Crazy people are often pretty good at killing others but they mostly prefer not to hurt themselves.

Ah, the simple life, it ain't so simple...

There are many ways to fulfill ones fantasies!! In my OPINION to do so is to do it without the aid of alcohol,drugs and other vices like CIGARETTES...I have been there, done that and don't want anymore of it...Why cloud ones judgement with those vices which only cause emotional ups and downs, irrational thinking and indecisiveness to achieve ones fantasies; not to mention the destruction of millions of brain cells which could possibly lead to Dementia...If those vices are a part of ones makeup, I would suggest trying a different route...One may find a whole new view on what is the so-called simple life..., life itself is very complex thus should never be considered simple...

IT IS THE ULTIMATE CHALLENGE ESPECIALLY FOR US EXPATS...

Since being here I have witnessed many Expats who use one or more of the VICES I have mentioned and all they do is cry in their beer about how unhappy they are over their bad decisions(blaming the locals) and how they are going to do this and that to fulfill their fantasies but never seem to pull the trigger on any of them...They just hit the bar or local hangout, down some more suds, puff a few butts, pop some pills to discuss the same BS day after day...Is it any wonder they are disillusioned with what they wish is the SIMPLE LIFE!!!

You speak of CRAZY PEOPLE...What's more crazy than clouding ones mental awareness and wasting ones life pursuing fantasies which  aren't there and if by some chance they are, then more likely than not they will fail in fulfilling or maintaining those fantasies...THUS GREATLY HURTING ONESELF to the point of maybe PULLING THE TRIGGER TO END IT ALL...

LIFE IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT, SO GO AFTER YOUR DREAMS AND DON'T WASTE IT WONDERING HOW THINGS COULD HAD OR SHOULD HAVE BEEN...

TAKE CARE and "GOD" BLESS

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