Diabetes and Sugar Substitutes - any suggestions?

Hi octobot.

Sugar is one of our biggest poison. Substitutes like sacarine is the same thing. Here you have some of the best (and healthy) substitutes)

- Stevia (this plant could help to improve the glicemic index
- Agave siroup (very sweet, natural and raw. It's from a vegetable... so similar with the honey)
- FRUITS (but carefully)

Please, watch this doc with him. Diabetes is not a disease for the whole life. We can fix the problem:

http://youtu.be/X124gv8GFWo

Good luck! And I hope you'll enjoy christmas with your family

umm.. thanks... i think.  I don't have time to watch this video, and diabetes runs in my family as well, so you are preaching to the choir.
My problem with Stevia is that it's so sweet, you can only use a pinch of it - leaving out a huge portion of VOLUME called for in a recipe.  Nectar and fruits leave the same problem - more liquid, less dry ingredients, different flavor. 

To avoid more of these same types of response, let me repeat the question.  Does anyone KNOW of a sugar substitute that can be used IN BAKING, available in Budapest?

update:  I have found this by using my limited hungarian to do a google search, and having Chrome translate it:
http://www.nyirfacukor.hu/
I've seen this a lot in the stores.  Any comments?

octobop wrote:

His dad is diabetic though, so I need to make a few batches without sugar, or very little sugar.  I know all about the Equal, Splenda, Sweet and Low in the States,...

Unfortunately, I know about this subject in quite some detail.

You should find out if he's got Type 2 (managed by tablets and/or insulin) or Type 1 diabetes (insulin dependent). What you should do will depend on the answer.

For a Type 2, I would search out diabetic recipies on the Internet in the theme of your intended baking.

I'm not trying to lecture but it needs a bit of explanation.

Being diabetic does not mean substituting a sweetener for sugar as even sweetener has a lot of bad things in it. The enemy in diabetes is actually carbohydrate. Carbohydrate gets converted into sugar which causes the damaging spikes in blood glucose (BG) levels - blood sugar should really be referred to as blood glucose as there are many forms of sugars in things you wouldn't think about - lactose (milk), fructose (in fruit), maltose (malt) etc etc. The damaging spikes are the causes of many (bad) side effects of diabetes.

Please consider the entire recipe design because anything you use which has flour, rice, bran, cereals, potatoes in it is a disaster as these things are high in carbohydrate and therefore will cause a rapid rise in BG levels and the damaging spikes.

That said, you can get sweetener similar to Splenda (or whatever it's called) in the big Tescos in Budaors. It comes in a plastic container with a red screw top lid and it's written in English on the front and it says "Tesco Low Calorie Granulated Sweetneer - Aspartame-based table-top sweetener". It's got no sugar in it at all but it is 92% carbohydrate.  You can also find another type called Canderel but it's the same sort of thing except branded. Usually it says on the packet that you should use it one for one substitute for normal sugar but I advise against it as it's very sweet indeed. Very small amounts are the best way. One of the artificial sweeteners makes things taste bitter when baking but I don't remember which one it is.

I advise looking for similar recipes to your original home baking with ingredients that have a low glycemic index (GI). A low GI means they will be absorbed more slowly into the bloodstream and cause less damage.

To put it into perspective, 1 biscuit very rarely isn't going to kill anyone with well managed Type 2 diabetes and good discipline but 5 biscuits a day made most out of sugar over 10 years could eventually lead to bad consequences. It's a bit like smoking, 1 cigarette isn't severe but many cigarettes over long per periods is asking for trouble.

So my suggestion is to a look around on the Internet. There are plenty of web sites with recipes for diabetic desserts and cakes. 

I would disregard any "diabetic" foods at the supermarket. These are usually expensive, very high in calories and have lots of fat in them. A word of warning whatever you do, do NOT buy diabetic chocolate made with polyols in them. Well meaning relatives, new to the world of diabetes management, often try and buy diabetic chocolate (with polyol in it) as a special thing and find out later that it's a terrible effective laxative!!

If all this sounds horribly complicated, it's because it really is a very difficult to manage but people do get used to it. It's very much a "personal disease". Some people can eat a slice of toast (which is made of bread, therefore flour) and have hardly any rise in BG levels. Others can eat the same thing and find BG off the scale. Everything has to be tailored and everything has to be in moderation.

Finally, anyone with Type 1 (insulin dependent) diabetes needs to be asked in advance what they can eat because they have to estimate their insulin levels. I would not bother trying to surprise them because if it looks remotely dodgy they simply err on the side of caution and won't eat it.

RubénCZ wrote:

Please, watch this doc with him. Diabetes is not a disease for the whole life. We can fix the problem:

You've got to be joking. There's no cure for diabetes. It'll get you in the end. You can only manage it.

Thanks Fluffy.  It took some research, but I found that the Nyirfacukor is birch sugar, known as xylitol in the States.  It's a natural sugar, but has a very low glycemic index and less calories than regular sugar, but the sweetness is almost 1:1.  I FINALLY came across a site that discussed baking with substitutes, that mentioned carb control as well.  It suggested nut or oat flours, so I think I'm going to play with those in the next few weeks to see how recipes work out.
BTW, my BF's dad is insulin-dependent, and I've asked him about what his mom uses when baking for him, but I think mostly the poor guy just has to do without (like my own dad).  They both studied food chemistry, so no matter what, I plan on telling him how I made the breads, and he will know if it's okay for him, or if he needs to have only a taste and share the rest.
Thank you for your info!
If I can find a relatively cheap way to cook with less sugar and carbs, I'd love to bake better for myself too.  It's just so much cheaper to buy the processed white stuff, and I don't have a job here - living on student loans.  Why is it so tough to be healthy?! (probably because I have a vicious sweet tooth!)

octobop wrote:

Thanks Fluffy.  It took some research, but I found that the Nyirfacukor is birch sugar, known as xylitol in the States.  It's a natural sugar, but has a very low glycemic index and less calories than regular sugar, but the sweetness is almost 1:1.  I FINALLY came across a site that discussed baking with substitutes, that mentioned carb control as well.  It suggested nut or oat flours, so I think I'm going to play with those in the next few weeks to see how recipes work out.
BTW, my BF's dad is insulin-dependent, and I've asked him about what his mom uses when baking for him, but I think mostly the poor guy just has to do without (like my own dad). ....

Ok, preaching to the converted indeed. I knew about Xylitol but forgot but now I know you can get it here (from your post), I can try it myself. I've seen good reports on it in various forums. But it's better to make your own stuff than buy stuff in. I have problems all the time, especially in restaurants or planes, you never know what they've done with the food - I simply don't eat desserts, avoid potatoes, rice, bread etc. Low carbing is the current fad these days for diabetic management. My own experience in Hungary is that many T2s do not manage their carbs correctly or even actively ignore their condition. When they have their feet chopped off or end up blind, they'll regret it. When I ask them they seem to think it happens to other people and won't happen to them. I wouldn't worry about diabetics going without. A non-ripe banana or apple can be a substitute. I just ignore what everyone else is doing and do my own thing. Now I don't associate what I'm eating with what they are eating. It takes some mind control but after practice, it's second nature. If I waver, I just think of them eating poison.

BTW, I think oats (and therefore oat flour) would be a high GI food. You can get porridge in Tesco which is oat flakes. You might be about to grind it up. Don't know about nut flour though.

The poster who said you can cure diabetes is living in cloud cuckoo land. Ignore him/her!!!

It's still good to get advice on diabetes management.  The problem with the internet is that you can find the same amount of information praising a product and health benefits, and another saying it will kill you.  That's why I want the suggestions of 'real' people who have dealt with these issues, so I get some more perspective!

The only 'bad' thing i read about xylitol is that it 'may' cause the diarrhea you mentioned, but most people say it's not a problem, and it's not like we're switching to 100% xylitol, all day, every day.  I'm sure a little Christmas cake won't matter much.  And the more I think about it, my breads use banana or pumpkin puree anyway, and will be perfectly sweet without too much sugar.  I was just looking for something to not dramatically change the recipe, because if I have to 'experiment' I could end up wasting a lot of food if it turns out bad!

I read you can grind up oats, and I was just at Auchan yesterday and noticed the bulk dispensers with different kinds of nuts (almonds, walnuts) ground very fine.  I will start by substituting only a fraction of the flour with these alternatives, just for that little extra "health benefit".

octobop wrote:

It's still good to get advice on diabetes management.  The problem with the internet is that you can find the same amount of information praising a product and health benefits, and another saying it will kill you.  That's why I want the suggestions of 'real' people who have dealt with these issues, so I get some more perspective!

You see a lot of rubbish talked, particularly by health care professionals. Official advice in say, the UK, is to eat plenty of carbs which is just total nonsense. They also say that T2s do not need to check their BG levels. That's ludicrous. Anyone with diabetes needs to manage their carbs, keep them low, get plenty of exercise, lose weight etc and as diabetes is so "personal" as regards metabolism, checking BGs is pretty essential. So the official advice and particularly, commercial advice (on packaging) is often complete nonsense. Basic food and body chemistry!

I'd be interested to know how you get on with nut and oat flour. Could be useful to know!

Honey is an excellent sugar substitute.
ItŽs natural and delicious.

Hericles wrote:

Honey is an excellent sugar substitute.
ItŽs natural and delicious.

It's death to diabetics.  Don't touch it.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I'd be interested to know how you get on with nut and oat flour. Could be useful to know!

I'll try to remember to post my experiences!

octobop wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I'd be interested to know how you get on with nut and oat flour. Could be useful to know!

I'll try to remember to post my experiences!

Thanks!

BTW, regarding the natural sugars in say, bananas, it's worth noting that "green" bananas have relatively low sugar where as "brown" (ripe) bananas (including those with ANY brown flecks) are very high in sugar. So it's not just fruit in general, it's when you eat it. That said, green bananas don't taste that great.  You are right that most fruit contains more than enough sweetness already (if you pick the right time to use it).

Ignore that posting about honey. It's all pure sugar and a killer for anyone with diabetes.

Caio!

Octobop hi, there are cake shops(cukorszarada, whatever they are called) for people with diabetes. I mean they sell sugar free cakes. You can go there and ask how they make their cakes and explain your situation, ask for advice.

Girlie wrote:

Octobop hi, there are cake shops(cukorszarada, whatever they are called) for people with diabetes. I mean they sell sugar free cakes. You can go there and ask how they make their cakes and explain your situation, ask for advice.

Diabetic cake is an oxymoron and the cakes shops in Hungary are engaging in hype, vis-a-vis: 

1) Many cakes are made with flour and this is carbohydrate which is processed in the body into glucose (or in slang terms "sugar").

2) The "sugar" they use in the cake shops is fructose which does not play a part in the body's glucose metabolism.

3) The problem with fructose is that excess gets converted into fat which is not the best thing for anyone - e.g. heart disease.

I bought a gem(lekvar) which has: 10mg szteviol-glikozidot tartalmaz.

Is this dangerous for health too?

Girlie wrote:

I bought a gem(lekvar) which has: 10mg szteviol-glikozidot tartalmaz.

Is this dangerous for health too?

Don't know really as I don't use it. Steviol seems to have a GI (glycemic index) of 0 in which case, no, it's not dangerous if you are diabetic.

To find out if anything is dangerous for diabetics, look up it's glycemic index (effect on blood glucose). The higher the number, the worse it is. Lots of sites show the GI.

If one is not a diabetic, it doesn't make any difference what the GI is.

So far I've used oat flour (ground up oatmeal in a food processor and sifted through a flour sifter) to replace 1/2 the flour in some cookies, and in beer-batter fish.  Both came out great!

octobop wrote:

So far I've used oat flour (ground up oatmeal in a food processor and sifted through a flour sifter) ....Both came out great!

Wow! Good to know. I'm going to try that as an alternative flour.

My wife has been insulin dependent for 35 years.

Dry white wine, thats the answer.

Of course they won't admit it when they are doing the "daily allowance" thing.

But dry white wine, and plenty of it.

sg2 wrote:

My wife has been insulin dependent for 35 years.

Dry white wine, thats the answer.

Of course they won't admit it when they are doing the "daily allowance" thing.

But dry white wine, and plenty of it.

I find red wine works as well.

Neil Diamond told me red red wine.

sg2 wrote:

wine, thats the answer

In vino veritas.

Another update, I used nyirfacukor, which is indeed sweet and measures like sugar, but it does not have other properties when baking.  My 'diabetic' baking fell flat and moist, so you need to add other ingredients, depending on the role of sugar in the original recipe.

octobop wrote:

.... My 'diabetic' baking fell flat and moist, so you need to add other ingredients, depending on the role of sugar in the original recipe.

I think perhaps you need a rising agent, like baking powder to get it fluffed up. I don't know where you can get baking powder here but I know Tesco sells self-raising flour, which has baking powder already in it. We use it all the time and it works pretty well. You could try baking with fruit in it.  Say, with ripe bananas or sultanas. These have plenty of natural fruit sugars in them which could help. I do this quite often and I leave out any other form of sweetner. I tried blueberry and banana muffins the other day and they came out very well indeed.

I can post a link the recipe for these muffins if anyone is interested. Just add fruit.

i have baking powder - sutopor - i think i added a bit, too, but maybe not enough.  I love muffins :-)

octobop wrote:

i have baking powder - sutopor - i think i added a bit, too, but maybe not enough.  I love muffins :-)

The Fluffyettes were very impressed with this version of muffins. I've tried a lot of muffin recipes and this has to be the simplest and the best recipe I've tried of about 5 or 6 during the past year.

Muffins from the "Hairy Bikers"

Modifications I made - I left out the honey in this recipe, used more banana and I added slightly less blueberries. I also used sunflower oil instead of vegetable oil. If you grease the baking tin with some margarine, then you don't need the baking paper/muffin cases.

I think this would probably make a good loaf as well, possibly with say, walnuts or some other nuts sprinkled on the top.

Please let me know how it goes!

If you are looking for a good quality sweetener, I recommend using Stewia. It does not contain Na-Ciklamat, Saccharin-this is a natural product. Similarly good is Canderel, both of them are available in liquid and powder version. If you have problems finding them, go to Interspar, they'll have it.

You can get Xilit from all the shops these days, Spar, Kaisers, Tesco, DM. Another suggestion would be to go into 1 of the Norbi Update shops to get reduced carb flour http://norbiupdatepekseg.com/component/com_storesearch
And on the honey subject, my boyfriend is a bee keeper and his sister is a type 1 diabetic, he says they can have 1 spoon of acacia honey a day, but that's it.
And also, the jerusalem artichoke, or csicsoka in hungarian is also called the diabetic potato and she uses it as a replacement for mashed potato etc http://naturalhealthtechniques.com/jeru … okes-2.htm

And on buying diabetic cakes, I bought one for my mother from Horvath cukraszda, it was the most delicious cake I've ever tasted, everyone loved it, needless to say it didn't last 5 minutes. I don't think it mentions it on the website but I just emailed to ask if they could make me one, they replied in English and it was fantastic. http://www.horvathcukraszda.hu/index2.php

Csicsoka grows like a weed on this climate, it's just not mass-produced.
You should be able to buy it relatively cheaply from small producers, like the little old ladies on Lehel Piac market.

Peeling it is a horrible chore though, we usually just wash it thoroughly with a brush and eat it raw, but we don't use any pesticides or fertilizers in our garden.

It tastes so sweet I never would have thought it had a low GI.

Alcnev wrote:

And also, the jerusalem artichoke, or csicsoka in hungarian is also called the diabetic potato and she uses it as a replacement for mashed potato etc http://naturalhealthtechniques.com/jeru … okes-2.htm

Thanks for this info. I didn't know about this one. It is not commonly known in my country. I checked into the nutrition information and it looks good apart from one thing, the potassium content. I might try this in the garden as it looks like a very tough plant suitable for bad gardeners.

I'm not a medical doctor but I would suggest anyone who is diabetic (mostly Type 2) and also has high blood pressure should check carefully with their GP and their high blood pressure tablets for contraindications with this high potassium foodstuff. High BP and diabetes go together.

There is a condition called hyperkalemia aka extremely high potassium levels. This can occur (rarely) with commonly used  BP tablets - namely "spironolactone" - and excessive consumption of high potassium foods.  Hyperkalemia is a serious and potentially fatal condition affecting the heart rhythm. 

As with all things diabetic. Everything must be in small portions and in moderation.

Some of my family members are or were diabetic.
Think all carbs and all sots of sugar are poison for everyone not just those that are diabetic.
Most grains have been stripped down and all nutrition is gone by the time it is processed.
Not to be off topic but maybe knitting him a sweater would be safer.
You'd fell horrid if he had a bad reaction to your treats.
Even fruit sugars are not fantastic for people, can't get all into the chemistry of it all but all carbs even from potatoes and sugars from fruits like bananas are too much.
My aunt was diabetic and had some of her toes removed because of her condition.
I'd opt to buy her flowers in lieu of food.
Once your body has gone diabetic it would take allot of work and a very strict diet to even consider curing yourself. By the time your system is so out of whack other organs in the body are also messed up.
Read allot about it but don't have a instant recall memory.
My auntie was T-2 my mom and others were T-1? We are part Native American and they tend to not do well with sugar.
Play it safe and get him something not edible.
Perhaps though you could check out the "Bulk Store" in Budapest, they have a wide selection of different flours and sweet products. There is one located in the 13th and 9th districts.

The "Bulk Store" is called shop or store, not in HU ATM and forgot the exact name, can find their price listings online
They sell all sorts of flours, gluten free, rice, etc.
The gluten free was 1,000F a kilo, bought it once, didn't like to use it much, just wasn't the same for cooking or baking.
They also have honey and perhaps you can check online if they also have sugar subs.