Has anyone gone through the simplified naturalization precedure?

Rhino:

Talking about getting wrong information from a consulate reminds me that some of the worst misinformation I got from consular officials was about the requirements for documents. I have US documents in my chain, too, and the rules for those are easier than the rules for most other countries. (For example, US documents don't need to be apostilled or "legalized.") There are also easier rules for some other major nations, not just the US. It depends on what country issued the documents.

Make sure the information you get about your documents is specific to the country of origin, especially for US documents, not the general document requirements. I wasted a ton of time and money apostilling things that didn't need to be apostilled because the consulate gave me wrong information. But if you have documents from outside the US, they may need to be apostilled and "legalized."

In my case, I also had to have certified translations done for every document that wasn't in Hungarian before I submitted them to the consulate. In some countries the consulate will translate them, in other countries you have to have it done privately through a translator they refer you to. And in all cases I had to submit original "certified" documents from the issuing authority. Xeroxes aren't good enough (unless they're for Hungarian church records before 1895). The consulate/embassy has to see official documents. (But if it's the only copy you have, some consulates will accept a Xerox if you show them the original at the same time so they can compare them. I did that and they submitted my xeroxes and gave me my originals back.)

Just fyi. Wrong information about documents cost me a lot of wasted time and money. I'd hate for that to happen to you, too.

Is it possible (after learning enough Hungarian to pass the exam) that one could be denied citizenship?  Is there a way to know that the only criteria needed is the language test? 

For example, the  consulate said that I was eligible for simplified naturalization but isn't the final decision made in Hungary?

Futpar, thank you so much for your insightful thoughts, especially regarding my eligibility  and the submission of documents. Admittedly, I've been baffled by the complexity of the process and varying information from consulates' websites. This forum is the most help I've received.

I'm not too surprised to hear the honorary folks won't work with me - I'll expect to submit an application for simplified naturalization (my father was indeed born before 1957) through my region's consulate back home.

I did want to ask about improving my language skill. I see the Duo lingo app offers Hungarian. And my wife and I have considered saving to take a few months off work to study in Budapest. But what are some of the ways you all have set about learning it?

If you studied in Hungary, can you recommend a language learning school?
Or if you self-studied, can you recommend additional resources?

I've seen a lot of talk about varying levels of proficiency being acceptable but achieving B1 level and that taking 2 months of intensive study in Hungary seems to be the most widely discussed standard. How long did you guys study for and how deeply?

Hello all,

Just read through this entire thread, boy that was a long read. Anyway, I am beginning the process of applying for HU citizenship via my paternal grandfather, and I'm curious whether citizenship by descent applies to me or if I'd have to thru the simp nat process that everyone here is talking about.

Everything I've read on the consulate's website seems to point to me being eligible for regular citizenship by decent, which I sure hope I am since I can't speak a word of Hungarian and neither can my father nor anyone alive in my family. My grandfather was born in Hungary (yes modern day Hungary) and emigrated to the US well after 1920. Based on everything I've read, all I need to prove my citizenship is a copy of my grandfather's birth certificate, marriage certificate, and any document proving his residence in Hungary after 1920.

This all seems too good to be true, is there any catch to this that might force me to go through the simp nat process? I'm not sure whether or not my grandfather was still a HU citizen when my father was born and I'm not sure how I could either prove or disprove this. Would it be an issue if he gave up his citizenship for any reason? Also my grandfather was Jewish and did not have a Hungarian surname, would this be an issue. The consulate states that this procedure is for "ethnic Hungarians" so I'm a bit nervous how they'd judge me even though my family sure considers itself ethnically Hungarian.

Thanks in advance for the help!

I have no real answers for you except, from what my HU husband has told me in the past, a person Never loses  their HU citizenship unless they request it.
Ray of hope for you , maybe?

Rhino, happy to provide whatever information I have. I've spent hundreds of hours researching this and wasted enormous amounts of time and money because I got incorrect information from the consulates and government websites. There's very little accurate information out there, even from official government sources. I should never have had to go through the wasted time and effort I did, and I'm happy to help anyone else so they don't have to go through it, either.

I don't have good information on how to learn Hungarian. One thing I considered (and eventually decided against for other reasons) is the intensive language summer program at Eotvos Lorand University in Budapest. It looked like a trustworthy and responsible program taught by qualified faculty, at a reasonable rate. They also ran a Christmas sale on tuition (to give as a gift at a reduced rate) when I was looking at it. If you're considering going to Budapest for a while, you might want to put yourself on their mailing list so you get notified if they run another promotion.

Let us know what you decide and how it goes.

SSSnoopz, you're lucky that it's purely paternal descent because you might qualify. But yes, there are a lot of things that could potentially trip you up and force you to go the simplified naturalization route.

The first question will be whether your grandfather was a Hungarian citizen when your father was born. If your grandfather naturalized in another country that required him to renounce his original citizenship (for example the US) before your father was born, then the chain of citizenship would be broken there. There might also be other circumstances that caused him to lose his citizenship. (Depending on when he left, he might have lost his citizenship by living abroad.)

One thing in your favor may be that your grandfather was Jewish. If he left during the Nazi era he may qualify for special rules of citizenship which could reinstate citizenship for you. I know several countries do that (including Germany), I don't know the rules for Hungarian Jews who left in the Nazi era. (If you have another European Jewish ancestor who fled the Nazis, from a country that does have special provisions for reinstating the citizenship of descendants of Jewish refugees, that might be by far your easiest route to European citizenship. I know several people who've done that. it's very simple.)

If you're not in a hurry and you're close to a consulate, you might consider just taking your papers there to them and asking them if you can apply to have your citizenship recognized. They may accept an application from you to "verify" your citizenship. That would be the easiest way to know for sure. But people on this board have said that process can take a year and a half, so you would be waiting a while for your answer.

Otherwise you're looking at a lot of genealogical and legal research to determine if your father was a citizen and then if you are also. It's possible to trace whether your grandfather naturalized and on what date. Depending on what country he may have naturalized in, I might be able to give you some information on how to do it. I've had to do that on my line.

If your grandfather left in the 30s or 40s, you'd have a lot of research into Hungarian citizenship law to see if it has a provision for reinstating citizenship for Jewish refugees of the Nazi era.

But given how complex your situation is, it might be easier to just apply and see what they say.

Thanks a ton for the speedy reply futpar!

I already tried going the German Jewish route as my grandmother was German and fled Germany around the same time. However, since it was my grandmother and not grandfather, the consulate told me I was out of luck (despite German law clearly stating that "all descendants of those persecuted on political, ethnic, or religious grounds during the third reich are entitled to German citizenship"). Do you know if Hungary has any similar laws for persecuted groups? Under Orban's government, I'd doubt it.

My grandfather fled to the US in the late 30s/early 40s and served in the US military and presumably got US citizenship. Not sure if this happened before or after my father's birth. I can probably find documentation to prove his military service and acquisition of citizenship, but if this would disqualify my application, why would I do it? Accoring to its website, the US consulate doesn't ask for anything to prove ones ancestor maintained his Hungarian citizenship.

My situation seems extremely complicated with all of this. I'd probably be best contacting a consulate and/or an attorney who knows the law better.

To add to the complications, beginning in the late 1930's Hungarians automatically lost their Hungarian citizenship if they acquired another citizenship. At some point this provision was removed -- probably after World War II -- but I don't know when.

As well, under the old Hungarian citizenship law a minor's Hungarian citizenship was tied to his father's citizenship. A young child could lose his Hungarian citizenship if his father lost his Hungarian citizenship. Again, I don't know just when this provision of the law was removed.

My gut reaction is that you've got a long row to hoe. Remember, the burden is on you to provide the proof you're a Hungarian citizen by descent.

(As to the comments above about apostilles and such for U.S. documents, remember that the apostille exemption only applies to documents submitted for Simplified Naturalization. For recognizing your citizenship by descent, your U.S. birth and marriage certificates need appostilles.)

Hi SSSnoopz,

I'm very surprised the Germans told you that you don't qualify. I know a lot of people who've gotten German citizenship as descendants of Jewish refugees and I thought at least some of them did it through a grandmother. I agree you're right that the law doesn't care about the gender of the refugee.  I'm wondering if the person you spoke to was misinformed. They might have been thinking about regular German citizenship, instead of the special rules that apply to Jewish refugees. The Hungarians tell me wrong information pretty consistently. I would expect the Germans to be more accurate, but maybe that one person wasn't.

I'd try asking the German consulate again, or better yet writing to the German embassy, since they presumably would know what they're doing. If you can do it through Germany, that's a lot quicker and easier than going through the process for Hungarian citizenship.

I don't know about Hungarian citizenship law around Nazi-era refugees, I didn't look into it because that doesn't apply in my line. I thought I'd heard some mention of it recently, and was surprised they were doing it. It's worth asking them about. But you may have to ask a few times. Like I said, pretty much every time I ask the consulate a question, I get the wrong answer the first time or two. That's why I've had to spend so much time learning the rules myself.

I wouldn't assume that just because the website doesn't say you have to submit proof that they maintained citizenship that you don't. I got a lot of curve balls from the consulate requiring things the website never mentioned. The website information is pretty spotty and not very accurate or comprehensive. Zif makes a good point that the burden of proof is on you.

I think it would be a good idea to find out if your grandfather naturalized and when. If  you find out it would void your application I understand you wouldn't want to mention it, but they may ask and better for you to know the answer beforehand. I know I've seen a requirement that you get a certificate from the country they lived in to the effect that they never naturalized, or that you provide the naturalization papers to show the date. But I don't recall if that requirement was for the Hungarians or for some of the other countries I'm familiar with. But I wouldn't presume you could slide that by them. Besides, a lawyer would probably need to know. I think Zif is right that this is probably trickier than it sounds on the website.

Lawyers can get expensive for this because it's so complex and you have no control over how many hours they say they're working for you. And your situation is even more complex than usual. I'd suggest going through the consulate first, and asking them what you need to apply. If they're willing to accept an application from you, you can at least get it started and let Budapest come back and ask for naturalization papers. You could just try going to the consulate with your papers and see what they say.

Let us know what you hear from the Germans if you ask again, and about a similar program for Hungarian Jewish refugees. I'm very curious.

Hi SSSnoopz,

I was so surprised that the Germans said you don't qualify that I googled the German rules, and figured out what the issue is:

Under article 116, paragraph 2 of Germany's basic law, descendants of people persecuted by the Nazis are eligible for German citizenship (for those born before 1 April 1953, the persecuted parent must be the father, and there are other restrictions depending on the German citizenship law in force at the time of the descendant's birth).

Turns out that yes, you can get German citizenship through a grandmother. Like I said, I know people who've done it. But it depends on when the grandmother gave birth to your parent. If it was before 1 April 1953, the grandchild doesn't qualify. So the question is: Was your parent born before 1953? If so, it sounds like you're out of luck. But if not, maybe the person at the German consulate was confused about the rules and you do qualify.

Thanks again for the wisdom!

Trust me, if my father was born after 1953 I would've got my second passport long ago and I wouldn't be posting here. German citizenship law does provide room for exceptions with "gender discrimination" being one of the possibilities, but based on everything I've read, they won't budge on the pre-1953 patriarchal law. Perhaps I can contact and attorney and see if they can pull any strings but I think I'm out of luck here.

Yes an attorney can be pricey, but I wouldn't want to spend hours and hours digging up documents and researching legal history, wait a year or two for Budapest to process my application, only to be rejected because I failed to include proof of XXX or because my father was born before XXX law was passed. I'd much rather spend a few grand if it means I can be assured everything is done properly. Would it be best if I did this back home in the USA or elsewhere? I am currently living in Europe so even going to Budapest and doing everything there wouldn't be a challenge. Also what does it mean to get documents apostilled?

I haven't been able to find anything official on Hungarian policy of welcoming descendent of persecuted Jews, although I've found a few Jewish genealogical organizations offering services to dig up old Hungarian birth certificates for those looking to get HU citizenship, so there must be others who've done this.

HI SSSnoopz,

Glad to help when I can, and thanks for clarification. I knew people could regain citizenship through their grandmothers, so saying the problem was that it was your grandmother didn't make sense to me. Now the issue is clear. You're right, I don't think they'll budge about that.

For the Hungarian consulates, I don't have any idea about what places might be most helpful for you to apply. But I can clarify one other misunderstanding. If you apply and Budapest wants more documentation, they don't reject you for an insufficient application, they come back and ask you for the additional information they need. That's why I've suggested just trying and seeing what happens. If you can pull together enough information for them to accept the application, and somebody in the consulate or in Budapest decides they need more detail about x issue, they'll go back to you and ask you to submit y document about x issue. As difficult as this process is in many ways, they're pretty flexible about that.

That's why I've been suggesting that not to bother with lawyers, but to submit what you've got and have the rest of the information ready in case they ask for it.

Especially in case they ask about naturalization. I've been involved in tracing several naturalizations in the US, and it can take a long time to get the papers. The website says the time lag is much shorter than the reality of getting the files. I've had instances where it took almost a year because of all the steps in the process. Which is why I suggested having that paperwork handy in case Budapest comes back to you and asks for it once they start analyzing your case.

But if you do hire a lawyer, let us know what they say about the law and how to apply and all the various requirements, especially for documents. That would be very helpful, thanks.

Good luck!

Hi fupar.  Thanks for all of your help with these issues, you seem to have bounds of knowledge in this process.  Do you think it might be best to apply for the simplified naturalization even w/o passing the language test?  Then they will reject and tell you exactly  why they rejected the  dossier?  Maybe they will list what needs changing so I could have a clearer view of my options?

Hi Hun,

My pleasure to help. I have spent way too much time and money on this and don't want other people to waste their time and money, either. It's so hard to find good information about this. I could have saved years and thousands of USD if I had gotten the right information the first time.

Unfortunately, the consulate won't accept your application until you pass the language test. They do it all at once. Applying first and then learning the language if they approve your papers isn't possible. I had the same worry and specifically tried to do that, and asked several different people at different consulates and embassies to make sure I was getting good information. They won't do it. I think that's unreasonable, Hungarian is difficult to learn and it's unfair to have someone spend years learning it and then deny their citizenship on a paperwork issue, but that's how they do it.

What you could do is go to the consulate and show them your papers and ask if they're in order or if you need anything else. I went to the consulate and embassy several times to find out why I couldn't apply for naturalization through verification like SSSnoopz is trying to do (because the website looked like I could like SSSnoopz said), and to ask what papers they needed from me for simplified naturalization. Every time I went I got additions about what else they needed from me even though I thought I had my papers in order. They eventually gave me an actual list of other things they required before they'd accept my application and told me to come back when I had them. (And some things they had told me they required it turns out they didn't.)

I'm pretty sure they would look at your papers if you asked them to. Ideally you could ask to see an official who actually approves the application and does the language interview and see what they say. You could even ask them what level of language they require and if they have any suggestions about how to learn it. But definitely have your papers in order before you go.

The good news about simplified naturalization is that the genealogy requirements are lot easier to meet than citizenship by birth. You don't have to prove a chain of citizenship, you just have to prove descent from a Hungarian citizen. If you can prove your ancestor's birth in Hungary and your chain of descent with formal, certified documents (officially issued birth/marriage/death certificates, no Xeroxes except for Hungarian church records before 1895) I wouldn't worry too much about the documentation requirements. They're simple if you have official documents. The problem is when people can't get official documents.

(And for everyone fwiw, don't bother sending to Hungary for Hungarian birth/death records before 1895. I spent hundreds of USD and waited a year for them, assuming that official government church records would have some official seal on them certifying them as correct. But they sent me the same Xeroxes I had already gotten online from the LDS church for free. I could have just printed them off the internet.

Some they never even sent, and I've been waiting six years so far.)

Hope that helps.

futpar wrote:

(And for everyone fwiw, don't bother sending to Hungary for Hungarian birth/death records before 1895. I spent hundreds of USD and waited a year for them, assuming that official government church records would have some official seal on them certifying them as correct. But they sent me the same Xeroxes I had already gotten online from the LDS church for free. I could have just printed them off the internet.

Some they never even sent, and I've been waiting six years so far.)

Not true.

i've requested a birth certificate from 1880 through a consulate and they gave me an official sealed copy.

I suppose it depends on where the church records come from. Sometimes state archives now hold them, in which case you'll probably get a stamp, and sometimes the church may still hold them, in which case you probably won't. In some cases, copies might be kept in both places.

Hi Jesperss & Zif,

That's very interesting. What I got for church records from the 1860s-1890s were ordinary xeroxes that were completely indistinguishable from what I had already printed off from the LDS records. Not even an official stamp on the back of the page. It really surprised me that they didn't even do that. The reason I sent to Budapest for the "official records" was I assumed they'd have some sort of official stamp or raised seal. But all they did was run a yellow highlighter along the record I had applied for, to show which one it was on the page.

I know those records were on file in the National Archives in Budapest, because I ultimately had to go there myself twice to find various documents. The records I got must have come from the National Archives, because the churches are in ruins.

After I went to the National Archives and saw that they have everything online in their system, I realized they wouldn't need certified copies of their own church records because they can just look them up and confirm the accuracy themselves. So I figured they didn't need to "certify" them anymore now that they can be verified online.

Maybe that's the difference. Are your documents older, before they had the records online, and could only tell if they were legit by certifying the copies? (When did you get your documents, Jess?)

What's an official sealed copy like? What distinguishes that from the ordinary xeroxes they sent me as the "official birth record" for various ancestors?

Or maybe your documents are stamped/sealed by the consulate itself? My documents weren't forwarded by the consulate, they came in the mail from Budapest. Is that the difference? Did your consulate stamp them as they passed through their office?

Very weird.

In my case, the church record comes not from modern Hungary but from the state archives of a neighboring country. It's a plain Xerox from the record book, but it does have a "State Archives" rubber stamp in purple ink. There's also a signed letter from the archives identifying the volume and page that was copied.

It did cost several hundred U.S. dollars to hire a genealogist to get this (together with an official translation into Hungarian).

Zif, that's very interesting. That definitely explains why you have a stamp from the archive on yours and there's nothing on mine, different archives. Especially interesting that they attached a letter specifying the page. Very formal. Thanks for clarifying that.

Jess, did yours come from a Hungarian archive, a different country archive, or direct from the church?

The header:

https://imgur.com/IwVUn3a


This was stamped at the end:

https://imgur.com/GxT9n3e



Not a waste of money.

Thanks fupar for getting back to me and your in depth response.  Thanks for helping us all out in saving time and money.

I have been to the NY Hungarian Consulate twice they told me that i just need to learn Hungarian in oder to finish the trail.  I have  the entire trail from my g-grandmother to me  although I just have a scan of the original document as my aunt cant find it (I will find it eventually).  In order to gain Hungarian and European Citizenship I am willing to spend as much time as needed.  I just cant imagine taking a year to learn Hungarian and not be able to use it towards our Citizenship.  I think there are a lot of American and Canadian citizens here that are trying to reach out to their Eastern European roots.  My family are Hungarian/Slovak and Ethnically they are pretty much equal.  The Magyar roots (true Siberian roots) are actually Asian so to be truly Magyar from the Ural Mountains would mean that you would truly be Asian and have Asian features, the Uralic area that are the roots from our language are mainly from an Asian part of Russia.  If you saw my grandma with her cheekbones (major cheekbones)!!!

I have been to the Hungarian consulate multiple times.  They referred me to a translator to translate all the documents.  I met with her and gave her a deposit.  she told me  that she would not take my money  unless she knew that  she was 100% sure that it would work.  I just need to fulfill the  Hungarian language aspect of the application/ I would be ok.  I am just worried that maybe they are not sure.  I don't want to spend 1 year learning the most difficult european language to be denied. 

My family name is Beseda/ Beszeda.  Which is Hungarian for speech.  The issue is that her birth certificate is from the Austrian part of Austria/ Hungary.  I have the documents when she  renounced her fidelity  from “Apostolic King of Hungary”.  There is a lot about Austria and all documents are in German.

Jess, thanks for posting that. You got exactly what I was expecting for the several hundred USD I sent them, which is of course not at all what I got.

Is the content of your letter an actual xerox, or is it a statement of what the document said? I've gotten things like yours from churches when they didn't want to xerox the page for privacy reasons and instead wrote out the contents and attested to them. Is that what they did on yours, or is the content of your letter a xerox of the actual record?

I also notice yours came from the BAZ regional archive in Sátoraljaújhely. I wonder if the difference is what archive holds the documents, since the xeroxes I got weren't from a regional archive, they were from Budapest. But that shouldn't make much difference because the person who signed yours is the Director General of the Hungarian National Archive, which I think is the Budapest head-of-everything job, not the local director in Sátoraljaújhely. (Anyone know that for sure?)

It's especially strange since a lot of my family documents come from BAZ megye, and the originals are presumably in the Sátoraljaújhely archive. I even wrote to the Sátoraljaújhely archive several times to trace documents. But I never got anything that looks like what you got.

Now I'm feeling doubly cheated.

Very weird.

Anyone else get "official records" that were just ordinary xeroxes, like I did? Or am I the only one on the planet who got xerox copies instead of certified documents?

The marriage certificates I received were just black and white photocopies from a book ( old registrar)  with a stamp.  Cost a fortune.

Thanks fupar for getting back to me and your in depth response.  Thanks for helping us all out in saving time and money.

I have been to the NY Hungarian Consulate twice they told me that i just need to learn Hungarian in oder to finish the trail.  I have  the entire trail from my g-grandmother to me  although I just have a scan of the original document as my aunt cant find it (I will find it eventually).  In order to gain Hungarian and European Citizenship I am willing to spend as much time as needed.  I just cant imagine taking a year to learn Hungarian and not be able to use it towards our Citizenship.  I think there are a lot of American and Canadian citizens here that are trying to reach out to their Eastern European roots.  My family are Hungarian/Slovak and Ethnically they are pretty much equal.  The Magyar roots (true Siberian roots) are actually Asian so to be truly Magyar from the Ural Mountains would mean that you would truly be Asian and have Asian features, the Uralic area that are the roots from our language are mainly from an Asian part of Russia.  If you saw my grandma with her cheekbones (major cheekbones)!!!

I have been to the Hungarian consulate multiple times.  They referred me to a translator to translate all the documents.  I met with her and gave her a deposit.  she told me  that she would not take my money  unless she knew that  she was 100% sure that it would work.  I just need to fulfill the  Hungarian language aspect of the application/ I would be ok.  I am just worried that maybe they are not sure.  I don't want to spend 1 year learning the most difficult european language to be denied. 

My family name is Beseda/ Beszeda.  Which is Hungarian for speech.  The issue is that her birth certificate is from the Austrian part of Austria/ Hungary.  I have the documents when she  renounced her fidelity  from “Apostolic King of Hungary”.  There is a lot about Austria and all documents are in German.

Did you make clear you wanted the equivalent of a certified copy? My recollection is that the archives I used had alternatives in their pricing: one for just a copy from the records, another for a more formal document. I'm going to make a reasoned guess you could get a more formal copy by specifically ordering one.

Hun, I hear you. I've worried about exactly the same thing, which is why I wanted to do the "approve the paperwork first" approach. Jesperss has given me a lot of advice about the language requirement, which has been mostly reassuring. But I'm not going to relax until I have the passport in my hand.

I don't know what kind of issues your grandmother's original document might raise, but if the consulate says you're good, and they've told you several times, I'd assume you're OK. If you have a good approach to learning Hungarian, please let us know.

Hi Zif, I definitely ordered formal, certified copies and specified on the application it was for citizenship purposes. I spent about 100 USD each on them.

For several hundred dollars, and a year of waiting, all I got was 2 xeroxed pages. I never even got a notice that the other records I ordered couldn't be found. They sent me the same xeroxes that I got from the LDS church for free, and less information than I was able to look up myself in one of their genealogy centers. (Working in the LDS center is how i was able to trace that the other records I asked for were missing from the original books because the pages were destroyed. The Hungarian archives still haven't told me that, they just never responded and never refunded my money.) That's why I'm not happy about this.

I'm very surprised that you and Jesperss got such formalized documents, and I just got a 5-cent copy. But of course your documents both came from different archives. That may be why.

Sounds like you and Jesperss are getting better responsiveness from the Hungarian government than I've gotten, in a lot of ways.

HunRyan80 wrote:

The marriage certificates I received were just black and white photocopies from a book ( old registrar)  with a stamp.  Cost a fortune.

Interesting, Hun. That sounds like exactly what I got, except mine weren't even stamped. I'm starting to wonder if somebody just forgot to stamp mine before they put them in the envelope.

"Sounds like you and Jesperss are getting better responsiveness from the Hungarian government than I've gotten, in a lot of ways."

No, mine came from a neighboring country, not Hungary. And I hired someone in-country to get the document and get it done the way I needed. Who knows what I would have gotten if I'd just sent a letter off to the archives myself.

Let me clarify, Zif. The "sending a letter off to the archives" is not how I requested these xeroxed documents. I requested them through the official channels via the relevant consulate and the appropriate forms. The reason I got xeroxes is not how I requested them.

The letters to the archives were to research other documents that weren't available through the usual channels. I had to correspond with the regional archive because I knew the documents originated in that region of Hungary and needed to determine which archive held them.

When I needed professional expertise, I worked personally with the chief archivist at the Hungarian National Archives in Budapest. There is no one more expert at this in the world.

I know you said that your documents are from a different government. I wasn't referring to your experience with the Hungarian government specifically about these documents, but rather the entire thread of things you've said on this board.

I hope that clarifies the confusion.

But if you mean to say that you haven't received effective service from the Hungarian government, then that's your call.

As to Hungary, like most people here I've had to take a sceptical attitude to what the consul says, and recognize that diplomats are not citizenship experts. What finally matters is what Budapest says, and nothing else.

That's why I'm cautious about Ryan's situation. That birth record he has from Austria doesn't prove his ancestor's Hungarian citizenship. Her father was presumably Hungarian, so she was in fact presumably a Hungarian citizen by blood, but where's the evidence of her father's Hungarian citizenship? That is, looking solely at the four corners of the documents he has in hand and the law, how do they demonstrate she had Hungarian citizenship? For bureaucrats, it's that paperwork that counts.

(Offhand I can't find a reference to it, but I thought there was a procedure by which a consul could refer a difficult question to Budapest for advice before an application was actually filed. For a variety of reasons I suspect most consuls would not be eager to do this and won't volunteer the option, but it might be worth looking into.)

Futpar, you mentioned earlier how if Budapest isn't satisfied with your documentation, they'll simply ask for more documents rather than just throwing away your application. Is that true? This thread seems cluttered with people who had their applications chucked due to some bureaucratic bullshit. Also why were you unable to go straight to claiming your citizenship through descent? How did you first find out you had to do simp nat?

Duolingo is a good place to start, they just added hungarian.  It's a good interface and teaches the basics and it's fun.  In New york they offer lessons through skype  but I think they are rather expensive.  Right now I am willing to take 2 months off and air bnb in Budapest and take an intensive  course there.  Only way to  learn a language is by being in the country in my opinion.  I know that from living in France.



here is a link to a grammar book (so you dont have to spend money on Amazon).
It's pretty good
 
http://www.readersstuffz.com/downloads/ … rammar.pdf

These offices are very good at keeping files on all submitted papers.
Sometimes though they ask for yet more papers so that is a hold up time wise.
I do not think they throw away any documents over here, files are kept forever.
If anything was ever filed here, it still should be around somewhere, a bit of digging in the right offices is what needs to happen.
Good luck.

Given this thread is already pretty unmanageable at over 500 posts, I've set up a new thread specifically for discussing language issues. Let's continue any discussion about Hungarian the language over there, and keep this thread limited to Simplified Naturalization procedures.

Embassy of Hungary, Ottawa, Canada

ABOUT HUNGARIAN CITIZENSHIP

How do I become a Hungarian citizen if...

http://ottawa.kkmsite.info/eng/page/a-m … lgarsagrol

STATEMENT ON THE ACQUISITION OF CITIZENSHIP

How to acquire or reacquire Hungarian citizenship by a statement?

http://ottawa.kkmsite.info/eng/page/all … atkozattal

Embassy of Hungary, Washington D.C. USA

Hungarian Citizenship Information

http://washington.kormany.hu/hungarian- … ip-general

Simplified Naturalization

http://washington.kormany.hu/simplified-naturalization

Map of former Kingdom of Hungary.

http://www.zonu.com/fullsize-en/2011-06 … -1919.html

Only if your ancestors were born in pink area of the map BEFORE July 26th, 1921. you are eligible for simplified naturalization.

Hope this will help you.

If you want to know whether your ancestor's town or village was in Hungarian territory prior to Trianon, the official Gazeteer is definitive.

Here's a link to the 1907 edition:

A Magyar Szent Korona Országainak Helységnévtára (1907)

Note that modern place names may be different, especially in the case of places no longer part of Hungary.

Thanks for the post Zif, I am sure this will be very helpful to many people.
I'll check it out too, I will need my husband to read it though since it is in Hungarian.
Think "maybe" my grandmother and perhaps my father too were born in former Hungarian lands...
Gorlice area of Poland? I'll have to go over your link, thanks again.