Moving to Toronto..Mind Says NO..but Heart Says YES..what to do?

Hi MickSahni and welcome to Expat.com!

Do not hesitate to browse through the forum, it may help.

Hope that other members will share their experience with you soon.

Harmonie.

Hello Mr. MickSahni,

I am Sajith kumar from India. I also face the same problem described by you and not able to take a decision since last one year.

Hi Sajith,

The fact that so many people of Non Canadian Origin have not been able  to find Jobs is a Huge Turn off.....

...highly skilled and educated professionals are working as Taxi Drivers, Courier delivery, Pizza chefs and Cleaners.....

Really, I would rather go back to India than clean toilets in Canada...

But in the end, I do empathise with Canadians as well, they were there first, so its their right give jobs to Canadian Born Residents...But why would Canadian Goverment import Three Hundred Thousand People every year if there are no "real" jobs in the economy...


Wait and See Approach...

Hi MickSahni,

You are right. Even after sound educational qualification and work experience, not getting suitable job is disappointing. That had caused me to shelve my ambition to procure Canadian PR, since it requires huge investment & time.

I was born and raised in Toronto, and have a home in Toronto.

While Toronto is always rated in the Top 10 cities to live and work; moving/relocating here from anywhere is serious business.

The stories you may have heard about foreign qualifications not being recognized and strict professional certification rules (for everyone, not just foreign professionals) is true.  Now, having said this, this is the result of politics and an accreditaion  system (for many professions)that is based on a core system that has not been updated for decades (before Canada's liberalized immigration system).  While it would be easy to call this discrimination, and many do, this is not the case, as Canada as a whole has given up a great deal culturally to accomodate people from all over the world in pursuing its vision as a multicultural country.  This is just an old system and needs to be updated in light of Canada's immigration policies, and while it a priority with the government, it is not a top priority.

As an aside note, for the record, there are a large percentage of Canadian citizens (non-immigrant) who are unemployed, who cannot get work as teachers, engineers and other professionals, etc. because of certification criteria, and largely government and corporate cut backs and downsizing.

From what I see, there are people that immigrate and make it here because of the access they have to more opportunity/options than where they came from, and they come with perserverance and a plan.  However, there are also just as many people who fail and return home.  This is the reality.  Just like anywhere, you have to do the research, realize it is going to be a lot of hard work getting re-established, and realize that the competition for foreign trained professionals and trades will be firece in cities such as Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, etc. because this is where the majority of newcomers want to go. 

Just as in America, you can make money in Canada but you will find that the quality of life is less than other places (where there is limited money making possibilities)but at least you can tuck your kids in at night. Anywhere you go will have its tradeoffs and issues.  The important thing is to have a realistic plan, with a realistic plan 'B' as well. 

I am proud to be a Canadian, born and raised but like you have seen many changes, not all for the best perhaps (compared to what I have known) and look to make a departure to 'greener pastures.'

I wish you all the best.

Robert

Thanks for that response Robert.

You have very much summarized what might be in the minds of many Canadians...

But the fundamental issue still remains the same, Why is Canadian Government issuing Residence Visas and Work Permits like Pamphlets when they know well that there are hardly any jobs in the economy and Millions of Canadian Born Residents are Unemployed !

Because Canada has such a wonderful image of a Prosperous, Happy, Peaceful, Safe, and somewhat "Perfect" Country, Educated Professionals from Third World leave everything and take the Gamble of moving to Canada....sometimes loosing their lifesavings and a professional career, end up driving taxis and cleaning toilets...

The Government Knows this is happening but they are still keeping the floodgates open.....Again, you might present an argument "nobody asked you to come here"....but the fact that there are legal options avaible to immigrate is an OPEN Invitation from the Canadian Government....

If I am not careful, I would come to Canada and find myself in a very difficult position...Yes I would like to come to Canada, I loved the place during my visits,  but I would like to ensure that Price I pay for my adventure does cost me my Career...

To address your question, based on my own experience and perception as a Canadian born citizen who has lived in Canada through several decades: 

Canada, despite the size of its inhabitable landmass has an ageing population and being that it is a democratic socialist country, has a need to repopulate its workforce with young(er) people (less than 40 years old) who will be able to support the infrastructure through taxes, consumerism and business start-ups.  This will ensure that the government can maintain its revenue base (for social/infrastructure programs and its own salaries) and increase/maintain some form of Canadian economy in general.  With foreign exchange rates and international monetary markets being what they are, the government is well aware of the critical need to maintain its GNP in the competitive world market, and in order to do this it must have an “intelligent” unskilled labour force that will work at minimum wage in return for maximum ROI.  “Intelligent” unskilled labourers are hard to find but put in an immigration program for foreign trained professionals and this solves both the problems I have outlined.  The foreign trained professional will be the “intelligent” unskilled labourer while awaiting/studying for  his/her professional accreditation (typically 3 years) and will be a good taxpayer/consumer, then should they obtain their professional status they will continue to be good taxpayer/consumers.  However, if they become disenchanted and decide not to pursue their profession, the possibility is high that they will remain in Canada as an “intelligent” unskilled worker for the rest of their life.  Either way, for the government it is a win-win situation.

Now, to be totally fair, there are professions in Canada where there is a scarcity, for example medical doctors in rural (northern) regions of Canada, but the problem is that the majority (not all) foreign trained physicians want to work in the major cities (like everyone else). 

The purpose of my responses to you and for anyone else reading these responses is to give a REALISTIC view of the situation, based on what I see everyday. 

Canada is a beautiful place, the people (born here and who have immigrated) are pleasant and we do all get along for the most part.  However, like everywhere else, we do have our problems – economic, employment, crime, politicians and government with their own agenda.  No matter where you go and no doubt where you live right now, you have the same issues; and life is not easy but it is manageable.  The only difference between where you are and where I am right now is that the problems/situation percentages of “this,” “that,” and “the other” are different but in the end they all still equal 100%!  No matter where you go, there will always be tradeoffs, so in the end it comes down to how well you have planned and ultimately despite everything around you, how content you are personally.

If you want a life of adventure, you have to trade security – if you want a life of security, you have to trade adventure.  No matter what life you choose, you must resign yourself to two facts; there are never any guarantees, and you must always have a realistic plan.

Thanks Robert,Couldn't Agree with you more.....all comes down to Trade offs and a Realistic Plan...

No place is perfect, but in the end some are more imperfect than others....

I think, in the end I might end up staying where I am....until the world economy improves drastically.

Thank you Mr. Robert. Your explanation clarified most of the questions in my mind, whose answers I was trying to find out.

I was wondering,about the necessity of professional accreditation again after providing us PR under skilled worker category, which is issued after verifying our qualifications & experience.

Thank you for your article.

Sajith kumar

Hi all

I work in the UK in the IT sector too. Contemplating on moving to Canada but I am glad to have found this site/forum and this specific thread. I am still at the early stages of research(started last week). I did not realize that it is that difficult for professionals to find a job !!!

However , I must admit that our move is more to provide good oppurtunities to kids .  Apart form life being better than in UK  , The Health care professionals' salaries are much higher, the profession is more respected and hopefully, Canada also will give oppurtunities for further graduate eduacation in Healthcare (medicine/Dentistry). With Uni fees going up from this year, the difference in cost will be marginal as well.

I still need to do a lot of research on the follwoing but any help from the members is hugely appreciated:

1. Can the children get admission in canadian universities on landing in canada with PR or should they spend an year before qualifying?

2. Can I set up my own company and work in USA on contract positions with Canadian PR or  a H1B for USA is required ? Unlikely I guess. Example : Live in Windsor and work in Detroit

3.Can I work in USA after I become Canadian citizen and travel freely back and forth between US-CA , like we can do in Europe ?

4. How is canada for retirement ? I know it is not sunny and cheap like florida but I still want to explore teh option for a semi-retirement if not reirement

Thanks in advance for your replies
Best regards

My experiences so far have been incredibly depressing. I came to Canada last April on an open work permit and worked at a fishing lodge in Ontario last summer. Since then, I have been applying for (and failing) to get many interviews in Toronto. 

Recruitment agencies have been useless, even for temporary contracts doing simple data entry. I have now been given PR status through the spousal route, yet applying for roles with a tailored 'Canada friendly' resume has yielded very little response. 

The amount of jobs where I meet every single requirement based on my skills and experiences but do not hear from is plentiful. I have even passed telephone interviews, but not been invited for second interviews due to lack of Canadian experience. 

Qualifications is not the issue for me, I have them from back home but the jobs I apply for don't require them. With legal status, a tailored resume, and meeting all set criteria, I'm getting nowhere.  I feel the simple reason is because I don't have the famed Canadian experience.

I feel like packing my bags and leaving, calling it quits here and admitting defeat. I have tried so hard to make it work, built up my networks, but there is few people willing to even invite me for an interview. The only reason I am staying is because I don't want to be viewed as a failure back home.

I'm English, have incredible experience in my field and can contribute to Canadian business, and I really, really, really did not move here to work in Starbucks or Tim Hortons. I want to be successful in Business but that's hard when you are not invited to the party.

hi covhat,

i'm not sure if this has crossed your mind already, but have you solicited intern positions with cdn firms? i think if your skills are demonstrated and your performance is observed, then the likelihood of an employer taking you on would improve.

there are also government programs to help new comers but i have to confess, they may only be available to new cdn citizens...nevertheless, it may help to go to a service canada office near you and inquire.

here's a link to their website:
servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/home.shtml

and here's a link to the page relating to cdn experience:
credentials.gc.ca/jobs/challenges/work-experience.asp

and one on skills & development:
hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/corporate/priorities/jobs_training.shtml

wish you luck.

Thanks for the reply and the links, both very useful.

I can understand the 'try before you buy' philosophy of Canadian firms to some extent, but an effective interview screening process, plus a skills test, is all that is really needed in my opinion. Many jobs here have three interview stages, so would that really not be good enough to determine if someone's experience from outside of Canada makes them suitable for the role?!

I get that there are hundreds applying for the one role, but is shortlisting the best candidates regardless of Canadian experience such a hard thing to do? Rather than ruling out (discriminating) against people who haven't been to a Canadian university / worked in industry here. The experience they have gained from other countries (even USA) may make them an even better candidate for a role! 

Ultimately, it is discrimination and protectionism where it seems the only way to get a role is to work for free and hope a budget to give you paid employment appears down the line. Not how I had envisioned Canada when I arrived...

Sorry for the rant, I'm just incredibly frustrated. I want to enjoy being here, the lifestyle is great, Toronto is fun, the people very friendly, but I need paid employment to benefit from living here

i'm not at all put off by your frustration...in fact, i think it's entirely fair. and considering our population is so small, birth rate next to nothing and aging baby boomers, it boggles my mind why our government isn't doing more to facilitate newcomers entry into the market place. i know there are less than optimistic theories regarding why this is the case, but it just doesn't make sense.

i really do feel for you. who can afford to live without income?? even cdns feel the need to earn a living so it shouldn't surprise any of us when newcomers want to work too.

i have experience in recruiting...i worked for a large investment bank which utilized psychometric testing and relied heavily on its results (in relation to suitability), however that said, i put forward arguments for a few candidates i felt could learn on the job or acquire the social skills as they gained familiarity with the environment etc. one candidate did adapt however one did not. so i can see where suitability does factor in. nevertheless, employers can bring you aboard on a contract if they still have reservations.

can you join any local business associations like the board of trade? i wonder if that would help you with networking. there's a chapter in downtown toronto in the first cdn place complex.

have you tried incorporating and pursuing independent contracts? that may also be a route to try.

i'm not re-inventing the wheel i know, but please don't give up. my ancestors were irish and came over during the potato famiine so i know they struggled and faced prejudice too.

i really do wish you luck. and if it helps, keep venting! better to get the energy out of you than carrying it around.

Did you ask yourself why you want to move in Toronto? Because if you have the same type of job, earnings etc in London why moving to another country if you're gonna left your wife in London. Not unless if she will be coming with you.

adrianacyrus,

If you question was for me then here is the Answer. London is a Great City, one of the best on the planet, but has its fair share of problems. London is a Very Stressful place with Grey Clouds all year round and very little sunshine. It is very conjusted and Cost of Living had already gone through the Roof. Comparible properties cost more than twice in London when compared to Toronto. London does offer prosperity to educated professionals but does take away peace of mind.

In my visits to Toronto I was impressed how spacious and relaxed this city is when compared to London, I could breath in Toronto. Also people seemed less stressed and worried when compared to London. As percapita incomes are same in these two cities, Toronto is a much better deal if I can find a Job in my occupation.

Toronto is not the most affordable city in Canada. But if you are well off go for it!

Hi MickSahni,

As a native born Canadian I must agree that all of Robert549s observations are bang on. The greatest obstacle without a doubt is Canada's excellence in education and in order to preserve that the acreditation process for those coming to Canada with diplomas from foreign educational institutions is extremely rigorous; and rightly so in order to protect that worldwide reputation. Trust me, I've lived in Brazil for eleven years now and it's a thousand times easier for foreigners to have their academic achievements recognized in Canada than it is here in Brazil.

Another factor that has a very negative impact on a foreigner's ability to obtain work has absolutely nothing to do with discrimination or "narrow mindedness" on the part of employers as you ask is the economic crisis that took place in the USA and its effect on the Canadian economy and unemployment rates. Obviously when it is now difficult for Canadian citizens with diplomas to find employment it stands to reason it's going to be much more difficult still for foreigners. That's just an unfortunate fact of life. You can imagine in a country where in excess of 80% of the population lives within a 300 Km. ribbon of territory stretching along the Canada/USA border at least in terms of the economy when the USA sneezes Canada catches a cold too.

As Robert points out, and I am extremely proud of as well, Canadians have gone the extra distance to make everyone coming to our shores from foreign lands feel welcome. We've done so by design, to embrace them and celebrate their differences and their culture. We have even sacrificed many parts of our own culture and traditions, especially religious ones in order to accomplish this noble goal.

Yes, it is hard for foreigners to find work... sad but true. However if you do succeed to overcome the difficulties everything else about the country makes all the hardships worthwhile. You couldn't be living in a better place.

Cheers,
William James Woodward - Brazil Animator, Expat-Blog Team

As President of Canada's premier business networking organization (MetroActive: Where People & Opportunity Meet - metroactive.org) and a Toronto-based realty with experience helping professionals relocate to Toronto I can offer some insight that maybe useful.

Firstly, yes Toronto is a great city and having traveled throughout the world (Italy, Germany, London, China, Japan, Venezuela, Austria, Mexico, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Switzerland, Monaco/Monte Carlo, France, United States of America, Dubai, and in Canada - Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, and many more) on business and pleasure I choose to live in this city. For someone with even basic skills the life is safe and provides lots of business opportunities for both acquiring existing businesses or starting your own.

Secondly, yes there are individuals, mostly professionals who have difficulty finding employment. I can tell you from what I've seen the reason these people have problems finding jobs is usually one of the following:
- they have a sense of entitlement with the belief that their credentials alone will get them the job
- they don't have basic skills like speaking or writing English
- they don't make the effort to learn the culture and business environment
- they don't develop relationships with people who can help them
- they don't promote/market themselves effectively
I can also tell you that the individuals I've seen succeed have done one or more of the following and the more they do the quicker they find a job and the better the job they find:
- continuously improve on their English language skills
- meet as many people as possible at targeted networking events
- join business organizations that can help them in their goal
- learn how to communicate with and develop relationships with other more established Canadians
- learn the culture so they can effectively relate to others
- have a plan of action they develop with the input from those that know
- promote themselves according to what is acceptable in the Canadian culture
- understand that they have to compete with others for the job and that it isn't something that they are just entitled to.

Thirdly, understand that Toronto is perhaps the hottest city for business opportunity in the world. We are attracting people from all over the world who come here to study in the hope of landing jobs when they graduate. We also are attracting individuals looking for a better quality of life. Consequently, the number of applicants far exceeds the rate at which job opportunities for these individuals arises. Therefore, in order to compete against these for the jobs you have to be better at them at identifying the right opportunity, positioning and promoting yourself. As President of MetroActive I have helped many people through this process.

Most individuals coming to Toronto in search of opportunity stay permanently. If it wasn't worth it then they would not be staying - right? As in any situation, there are always some individuals who don't do what it takes and then blame the system or someone else for not getting what they want. Don't let that  happen to you! Don't let someone squash your dreams whatever they maybe for fear of failure. I have  never regretted trying to achieve a goal, but I regret deeply a couple of dreams I didn't pursue because of the discouraging words from others.

Baldo Minaudo, M.B.A.
Sales Representative,
Real Estate Homeward, Brokerage
1858 Queen St. E. , Toronto, ON
Tel: 416-698-2090
skype: baldominaudo

I should also mention that nursing is a very good way into Canada. It is also a great way to learn the culture and build meaningful and prosperous relationships. I grew up living  next to a nurse from India and her husband who did very well for themselves. She retired and still  lives in the area, her husband passed away and her son married an American and is living in the U.S. now because that is where her family is. Toronto is such an international city that you can develop relationships with all sorts of people from just about any country.

Hi Micksahni,

Iv'e read your post about moving to Canada from the UK. I've researched It for the last 3 years, and was ready to take the plunge. Like you my head says no but my heart says yes. My only concern is finding work within 2 months of arriving. I am a property renovator, I do plastering, dry wall lining, tiling, basically everything to with home renovations. I speak 6 languages, and a retired gourmet chef.....

I know i will have to struggle, I did struggle when I moved to Scandinavia but managed really well. I do realise you have to take the kicks and beatings and still keep moving forward.

Hope to speak to you soon.

Dude this post is so old. Read the date first.

minaudo,
Just because I like you, I am going to throw a "bone",in this and say, "Guys, you don't have to pick Toronto as your choice and make it the only city of choice to land in Canada".

Canada is freaking big and there's more cities to choose from.... I am not going to tell which one. minaudo, is going to tell you Toronto because he's from there and of course, I am not sure how altruistic his messages is. But yeah, you get my drift.

Chow.

All......just an update that I didn't listen to my heart and remained in London......You can tell I am a risk averse person.......Yes ! I do sometimes regret as our lifestyle could have been better if we were in Canada...but at the end of the day there is a scarcity of well paid jobs everywhere....and I just couldn't find the courage to resign, then ask my wife to resign, sell the house in London, and start packing for a country notorious for very high unemployment amongst migrants. I will surely be visiting Canada as a tourist again.....and this time it would be the west coast and Vancouver Island.

I wish you all the best whereever you end up......Good Luck!

Phillip, thanks for the bone.

For everyone else, let me throw some perspective on that bone. Toronto isn't the only place to move to. I myself have stayed in many cities around the world and am from a small town. So, yes my perspective is based on my experience as yours is on yours. At the end of the day, where you should live and how happy you will be there primarily depends on the people in your life around you and the lifestyle you live. Unless you want total isolation, I doubt that you won't find whatever you desire within the Greater Toronto Area. But, if you move to a smaller city, I doubt that you will find all that you desire, yes perhaps one or two items and they will be at the expense of the other items on your list.

Some people want to live in the mountains among the trees, other in the desert away from people, others in small towns where they aren't overwhelmed with opportunities and choices. MetroActive has an excellent selector tool to help you find where you should live - metroactive.org/wordpress/where-to-live-in-toronto-new-neighbourhood-selector-tool-helps-you-find-your-next-home/ . Though its is used for Toronto, it will also help you find the city you should be in.

Toronto has its pros and cons. For some reason millions of people and over 100,000 new migrants from outside Canada, from across Canada and from small towns come to Toronto every year. There are reasons why they move to Toronto. No, it's not for everyone and yet its the number one destination for immigrants to Canada. Wouldn't you rather be in a city that is equipped to help you settle in and build your new life?

Finally, please understand that just as a leader among people, Toronto (being a leader among cities) is either really liked or hated by those that aren't able to live here. Many people in small towns are envious and try to justify why people shouldn't migrate to the city...and yet they continue to do so.

Phillip, no hard feelings...we just have different preferences for the type of city we would like to live in. But, I'm sure we desire a lot of the same elements in our lifestyle - opportunity, leisure, entertainment, nature, friends, etc.

minaudo,

You don't have to live in the mountains. Smaller cities aren't isolated. While bigger cities have all the stuff you can get, there's things there that you loose that can't be measured in $$... Unfortunately, not many people have the opportunity to find work in smaller to medium sized cities because most of the jobs are in larger ones. I on the other have the good fortune (in my own personal view) to live here. I could have easily found jobs in any of the larger cities - but I made that conscious decision to come out here instead.

That's the beauty of it - diversity doesn't have to be just in Toronto - its all around in Canada. There will always be people like you and and small bunch people like me. That's why I love this country.

p.s. Btw, stop advertising your services for your site metroactive.org. If you continue, I'll let the admin know. Cheers.

For those wondering what city to move to in Canada, here is some interesting information & statistics published in May 2014 through - canadianbusiness.com/economy/young-people-leaving-halifax/. There are reasons why people are leaving Halifax. Here is a quote from the article:

"This chart, from the newly released 2014 Halifax Index, shows a sliver of the problem facing many mid-size cities in Canada — the exodus of young and working-age people. The Halifax Index, produced annually for Nova Scotia's capital, benchmarks the city against five peer cities on a number of important measurements: population growth, education levels, the confidence of the business sector, and more.

The worrisome number that the report highlights is Halifax's population growth, the slowest in its competitive set at just 0.4%. The problem, the report concludes, is that people are leaving the city for other parts of Canada..."

For those considering moving to Toronto, InterNations (http://www.internations.org/toronto-exp … onto-15619) has published the following: "Toronto is probably among the top three destinations for expats interested in living in Canada. And with good reason: Expats and immigrants have chosen to relocate to Toronto for decades, making it one of the most diverse cities in the world." Please note, I have no affiliation with InterNations nor as of yet am I a subscriber to their website or newsletter.

Though Canada is an extremely safe country to live, there are differences in the crime rate between regions and cities. Maclean's magazine (among the most respected in the country) published an article in 2010 (It's a bit dated but crime rates don't change over night) where they summarize the crime rates. You can see as a general rule the most dangerous cities are in Alberta and B.C. (7 out of Canada's 10 most dangerous) and the safest are in Ontario (6 out of Canada's 10 safest cities - 4 of these safest cities are part of the Greater Toronto Region) followed by Quebec (4 out of Canada's 10 safest). You can read the article at - macleans.ca/news/canada/national-crime-rankings-2010/ . Please note, I am not affiliated in any way with Maclean's magazine or their website.

Micksahni,
You sound very qualified and if you're a retired chef that's a great bonus you an fall back on. Yes, 2 months may not be enough time to find your ideal job, but there is plenty of work for people that can help with renovations. Lots of that happening in Toronto. Have you considered passing your resume' around to home flippers and rental  property investors. There are plenty in the Toronto region and they do hire contractors to help with things like painting, reflooring, shingling, drywalling, etc. Most of the contractors themselves turn around and hire others to do different parts of the jobs.