The good side of life in Vietnam?

VN s a binary country, by which I mean you either love it or hate it. Even the VN governments are complaining about all the one-time tourists who never return.

The VK (Vuiet Kieu) have made their reputation quite unaided by the loxals. They come back here, having escaped the rigours of the past 35 years, flashing their money and buying up nice areas of the country.

Every one is suffering from the 'local pay' syndrome with fewer and fewer companies importing staff at high salaries with hardship bonuses and allowances for health, schooling, etc.

The 'shine' has come off employing Foreigners, not that VK are Foreigners in the real sense, so that has helped change minds, the VN realise that Foreigners are no one special.

VN companies are OK to work for, just their management practices are different - especially in government. Their might be resentment by fellow workers but that is the case in other countries.

As far as teaching is concerned, VN typically want (alphabetically) Canadian, United Kingdom and United States accented people. They do not want strongly accented people from any country. They also want value for their education dollar/Dong. Education is often one of the largest items in a VN families budget and not helped by recent increases in the schooling fees imposed by government.

The VN Labour Code means well, but employers tend to ignore it. It stipulates many things such as hire and fire policies, collecting and paying taxes and social benefits, employer responsibilities, etc.

Employers find it easier to pay cash based on the hours worked, pick up health costs, and let the rest slide. Some Foreign employers (TaiWan and Korea) have simply flown away when times get tough abandoning buildings, workers and debts. The VN government has stomped on this by tying employers, managers, directors more tightly to their travel habits.

Several have been 'detained' when trying to leave.

Living within the VN community I am amazed just how 'clean' clean is. Watching washing lines can be very revealing. My neighbour in DakLak seems to change her children's night clothing as often as she does their day clothing. Both are daily.

Where hygiene falls down is that 96%, according to a 2009 survey, don't wash their hands after attending toilet needs. You can see waitresses standing around drilling away at their ears, scratching their hair or seeing how far they can stick their fingers up their noses immediately before using the same hands and fingers to serve your food.

Street vendors wash utensils in cold, minimally soaped water. Few restaurants use hot water for washing dishes (and killing germs). I even know one restaurant that has a gleaming new industrial dishwasher machine that they use only on cold water!

In TP HCM we are lucky to have a government who cares. We have food inspectors everywhere; they shut down restaurants and food processors without hesitation.

Public utilitoes are a problem. We have suffered through two-three years of road digging as they installed new, inadequate, sewers. The city knows they are not fit for purpose but they sail on regardless. New sewer systems are already on the drawing boards.

What I enjoy about VietNam is that the population doesn't let much that comes their way slow them down. It's a bit like the Wild West hereabouts, which makes for an interesting life.

The VN population has an abhorrence to paying taxes. I sometimes wonder how government finances it's operations. I have never been asked, except in VN, if I wanted to pay VAT!

The government is learning. It has tied hotel occupancy to taxes and continued prompt payment of VAT to the operating licence. In other areas they fail. They recently closed several gas stations in TP HCM for watering the fuel, diddling the meters, etc. yet they were surprised when they found them still operating months after they were 'closed'.

Have they never heard of padlocks, or removing the guts of the metering system?

We now have over 200 supermarkets in TP HCM, plus many, many more over-priced 'convenience stores' (up to 50% higher than supermarkets). The VN shopper is getting used to fixed prices. In fact the VN shopper is extremely well versed in Best Before dates and knows all the dodgy name brands (especially from China).

VK have advantages. On reclaiming citizenship (dual nationality is now permitted) you have all the rights, and duties, of a citizen. You have access to their schooling and universities (some of these are accepting Foreign students as they are recognised as leaders in certain fields).

In reality VN is doing better than many overseas countries including Canada (whose passport I hold). The politicians generally don't interfere in daily life, sure they look after themselves well but generally - at least in the south - they are very much like other governments with the same problems.

Safety is good, despite what you might read here, and is rated higher than Canada and the USA by Interpol. They even allow 'demonstrations' outside City Hall and strikers are allowed to have picket lines.

TP HCM uses it's 'compulsory purchase' powers very sparingly. They could simply toss people out and then forget about them but they make sure the majority are rehoused before the hammers and bulldozers come in.

There is an apartment block, on Tran Hung Dao, where there are 4 or 5 families holding out for more money. They are doing OK, as well, since the government keeps on coming back with increased offers - which they reject!

The other question you have to ask is why so many Foreigners, without ties to VN, make the choice to move here? It's not the money, for sure, and they face difficulties every day be it language or even sourcing things.

It is because, in several cases that I know, that they think VN is a better place than their own countries. One active poster in this forum even said he feels 'more free' in VN than the USA (paraphrasing). The VN government doesn't track your credit card usage on-line in real time, it doesn't tap everyone's telephone.

Sure it censors the TV (all Western channels are 10 minutes delayed - if something happens it's 10 minutes later in VN) but how many countries are filtering the InterNet. Britain will lock you up for 4 years if you refuse to give police, et al, the password to a hard drive.

If I was faced with the choice such as you are I would say move ONLY leave your money in overseas accounts - banking in VN is too much determined by the whims of the State Bank of VietNam.

Health resources are good, only you have to pay for them which is different for Canadians. All foreigner wards have excellent money collection systems be it in cash or plastic.

Another indicator is the Vietnamese. 15 years ago there were few smiles on peoples faces, everything was where the next Dong is coming from. If you observe VN from a discrete distance you will realise they are happy. None of this Russian or Chinese down-at-mouth attitude.

Another thing, ten years ago a VND100,000 note in VN hands was a rarity, now even VND500,000 are common place.

Of course, Ha Noi and the north are different!

Man, I really had to pick my brain, hard, to come up with something positive to say .

As the one who wrote the original thread about the VK having problems at work place, I may be a bit biased .

Concerning the positive side you are asking, here are some points on the top of my head:

-    Cost of living is certainly lower: In the west, when I pay the checks, they are normally 3-5+ times higher (depending on the countries of course). Similarly with supermarket bills.
-    Blending in: despite having a different thinking process and lifestyle, it is still relatively easy for you to live quite integrated in the society. Having worked in several countries in environments where I was the only foreigner around, it is a bit more relaxing to be able to, say, walk on the streets without being self-conscious about the fact that you are sticking out physically like a sore thumb. Depending also how old you were when you left Vietnam, it can also be easy for you to read (some of) the social/cultural cues. You still have to deal with the Vietnamese mentality, bad habits and suspicion, but it is another issue.
-    Service: don't like to clean your house, your clothes or do shopping, you can hire someone else to do it for cheap money. It is even customary (if not socially obligatory) to have ball boy to pick your tennis balls when renting tennis court.
-       Food: unless you live in Southern Cal, San Jose or cities with large Vietnamese communities, you'll love it here. Having said so, I find the Vietnamese food abroad both is of higher quality and tastes much better as well. Having read so much about how the food is grown/treated/cooked here, I am quite selective about what and where I eat.
-    Lastly, for me who is keen to play sports, I love the Vietnamese habits of getting up early. In other countries, especially the colder countries, I struggle to find organized sport activities early enough. Here, you can join, say, tennis groups at as early as 5AM. At 6AM, the parks are full of people running, playing football, training taichi, aerobics,…

Hello guys,

I love the pace of life here, slow and easy, just as I like it.

I like the lower cost of living. 

I appreciate the numerous services available.  Things do literally come at the tips of your fingers here.

I like the lower rate of violence.

And I love the warmth of the people.

Oooh, I forgot.  I also love the opportunities for personal and professional development.  After only about 3 years here, my skin is twice as thick, my Vietnamese is three times as good, and my patience is four times better than what it used to be.

Howie

Anatta,

If the people in North America serve food the way some of the folks here do, they would all go to prison.

Wild_1 wrote:

Anatta,

If the people in North America serve food the way some of the folks here do, they would all go to prison.

Ha ha. The prisons would be full also because of the way people drive, do business, buy, sell,...

Remind me the time one of the top country leaders blurting to the press in a moment of unintended candor: 'If you all want honest civil servants, how/where do I people to work with?'

Canadian2828, another 'positive' side: in all yin things you find also yang, and vice versa: all the negative things can be seen as positive, if you are willing to see them in a different perspective. You can either enjoy more freedom (a positive if you see it that way) by 'joining the dark side by practicing the same art' or appreciate more the few people who still share your values or see them as opportunities for personal test/development.

Hi everyone:

Very thankful for your posts and feedback...they were fun to read and very informative.

I will be traveling to Saigon in a couple of weeks to see in person how I feel about the city.  I plan to hire a tour guide.  Would you say that it's a necessary/preferable?  My VN is very limited. I figured I'd take the headache out of negotiating for cabs and everything else and just try to enjoy the city.

I've visited Hanoi a couple of times and could not see myself living there.  How would you compare Hanoi to Saigon?

Last but not least, I am a 'Vietnamese Hoa Kieu' originally from Haiphong.  Given that the VK are not necessarily beloved by locals, am I done for with my very heavy baggage and Northern VN accent? :-)

Many thanks to all.  Looking forward to your replies.

Canadian2828

Don't see why you need a tour guide, esp if you want to visit to see whether you like to settle down here.
Besides, there are many Vietnamese frequenting this board who would volunteer to show you around to have a chance to practice their English.

Cabs here are quite safe and plenty, if you stick with Mai Linh and Vina Sun. The city is 'small' in the sense that it is not much to see as a tourist. Two days and you've seen all the key tourist places.

If you speak little Vietnamese and are Chinese VN, people tend to see you more as a Chinese.

Once you have settled down, it does not matter much if you find a group of like-minded friends. They'll treat you as you, not VK, not Chinese. Chinese VN tend to find friends quite easily with other Chinese VN in Cho Lon.

The big question is what you want to do here for a living.

Canadian2828,

That Anatta guy is ...  out in leftfield somewhere.  Can you believe that guy, he has his own logo now??? 

But, that "Funnyman" has a point:  if you are going to need a tour guide to learn about Vietnam, perhaps, this might not be a right place for you.  Man...  One thing about tour guides here, they don't always paint the right picture.

Do what you think is right and what you are confident with...  That is the best way to go about here.  We can sit here and tell you how rosey things are, but for you, none of it might even come close to what you expect to see and smell.

But, if your mind is open and your heart is light, I don't see why you can't just find your ways here.  The things that kept me going, in the first place, were these; "There are over 80 million people who are living in this...  Why can't I do it?  Am I just too good for all of this?"

Ha ha. Howie is getting logo envy. There are writers and there are Writers with capital W. Know where you belong, young man

Canadian2828
Concerning Saigon vs. Hanoi, search for an older thread talking about this. Again, my position is biased: I would never consider living in Hanoi.

I burst out laughing when I read your comments about me needing a tour guide. lol.  I call it controlling my environment!  But you make a good point and I will seriously think about not being a control freak.  Now...what do I want to be in Saigon for?  To develop a thicker skin, learn to be more patient, improve my Vietnamese.  Am I plagiarizing from somebody's post?  Is it Wild1 who said that?  It explains exactly why I am considering a move. I just didn't know it until I read somebody else write it out.  ;-)

Thanks all.

Canadian2828 wrote:

Now...what do I want to be in Saigon for?  To develop a thicker skin, learn to be more patient, improve my Vietnamese. 

Thanks all.

You'll be bored out of your mind if you don't have sth to do.

Canadian2828,

When I first landed in Vietnam, fall of 1999, I knew nothing about this place.  I couldn't even cross the street by myself.  But, short thereafter, I learned how to ride a motorbike and biked the length of the country, with no map. 

My family and friends thought that I was nuts.  But, I learned a great deal from that trip alone.  The most important things were how much I could personally take and what I needed to work on.

At the same time, many of the friends that came here surrounded by their friends and relatives, even the ones that made a similar trek, could never come close to matching my wits and wisdoms.

Now, you have the benefit of this and many other forums.  Take advantage of it.  Then, if needed, go out and verify some of the stuffs yourself.  You don't need to be in a bubble, bro.

Howie