Did you hear the true story of a Vietnamese man, woman, child & door?

Well, by now the whole world knows it.  Because it's all over the media worldwide.  This is because it happens to an airplane that this is easier for the media to jumped on it.  Being inconsiderate to others around is nothing new all over Vietnam.  There are so many things happen in VN that belong to this category of in-consideration to others and rules for the sake of the whole community.  Have you thought that the whole country is a trash can?  Traffic lights don't matter to 99% of the motorists on the roads except when traffic policemen are present at the street corner.  If you are too polite standing in line (if there is ever a line), at the bank or supermarket or airport, you will keep standing there with every single locals cutting you off as if you don't exist or you stand there for some other purpose.  Even government sponsored street sweeping people (usually people just got out of jail and on parole) keeps sweeping trash to the drainage opening.  There are people urinating on the side walls off an alley over convenience mostly in the evening or day time in a quiet alley.  I swam at a beach in Vung Tau one day and found some harmless human solid waste floating around 2 feet in front of my face that I acted like it was a harmful shark and raced back to shore as quickly as I could and never went back there again.  Lots of "Accidents" could have been avoided had there not been attitudes of being carefree or careless.  The rest of these things don't get media attention, but what happens at an international airport certainly get lots of attention.  The big guys have to set good example and start some kind of educational campaign about everyone just chips in a little can do good as a whole.  I have seen pictures circulating on the internet about VN Policemen urinating in public.  VN is a definately a place for adventure.

When I was first in VN in 1968, it was not unusual to see women squat on the side of a road to urinate.

in 4 years time being here, i saw twice an old lady urinate by the road side. shocking.

It seems that women coming from the countryside have no problem squatting in public.  I witnessed a woman squat right in the middle of the median lawn on Nguyen Hue Boulevard.  She practically mooned the public.  This is supposed to be an upscale area in Saigon.  She was wearing black pajamas like outfit.  This looks like one of the street vendors from the country side.  Sometimes I can't blame them because there aren't convenient facilities around.  All the restaurants and shops have bathrooms for customers only.  The nearest PAID public toilet is inside the Ben Thanh Market (10 minutes walking distance from Nguyen Hue Boulevard).  Besides, the city is way way over crowded.  HCMC has a population of more than 10 million (not including people coming from the country side to make livings and tourist and expats etc...  The City of Toronto in Canada is more than twice the size of HCMC but only has 6 million people.  The HCMC population keeps going up every year but public services have not kept pace with population growth.  Recently, I read an article in Thanhniennews.com about HCMC hospitals are way way over crowded.  Many people from the countrysides, have to come to the city for medical services due to lack of adequate medical services in their own regions.  A few years ago I personally talked to a man coming from Pleku (Central Highland) at the Cho Ray Hospital in Cho Lon (HCMC) because he had a motorbike accident in his hometown.  VN's population is now over 90 million and counting.  10 years ago it had 80 million people.  2 thirds of them are under 35 years old therefore, the population growth runs up much faster.  There were a couple of newly built private hospitals that came up in the last few years but they are mostly too expensive for most people, so most patients jam the Cho Ray Hospital, Hung Vuong Hospital and Tu Du Hospital.  So growth should not be just more high rise buildings and cars and new clothes, but social growth has to be up to speed as well.  It doesn't help if ordinary folks are not allow to lead anything.

kryptonite123 wrote:

in 4 years time being here, i saw twice an old lady urinate by the road side. shocking.

I saw a woman using a piece of plastic piping the other day on the way to DakLak, looked just like a guy except the wrong shaped figure.

Still, what the VN do is little different from what happens in France, in the countryside

Docwood....... http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p … definately

Jaitch........ keep it up, you're a great source of useless information. Your imagination takes some beating too.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is Vietnam, live with it!

Thanks for the correction Halfway.  Well I believe what Jaitch's comment about plastic piping is true.  I have never seen it but based on my experience with VN, it's most likely true.  Back in those old days of being a university student in NY, one of the girls had us guys stand around her within 3 feet to cover her urination in the public some where at night on Long Island's Long Beach.  Well If you really got to go, nothing will stop you.  This is just human nature.  Going back to Jaitch's original story, actually the whole world knows it by now, but what's interesting is you can not find it in any local media.  I talked to locals via Skype and no one knows about this story.  It's in the English version of the Thanhniennews.com and TuoiTrenews.vn, but all Vietnamese sites don't have this news.  I saw it in the Washingtonpost.com and MSN as well.  I have been comparing both languages in these 2 Vietnamese origin sites, and they seem very different.  The English sites seem to target foreigners and the Vietnamese sites tend to target locals.  I always find one news article in one but not the other.  For Locals, it pays to learn English doesn't it?  I think these 2 sites are available in internet Cafes throughout VN. 

Hey Jaitch, I read your other comments about plumbing and electrical wiring techniques in VN.  This is very interesting and great learning.  Keep it up!
Thanks to all that take time to write!

Docwood

Not true. It is reported at least in one of the most widely read news site with names and all.

http://vnexpress.net/gl/kinh-doanh/2012 … rieu-dong/

Concerning the media, I have to give credit to the Vietnamese gov for being consistent. You may be read an article in the English version being a literate translation of the original Vietnamese version.

Other countries, say Thailand, may have different angles on the same events, one for the foreigners and one for the locals.

Also, unless it concerns politics, and interests of the higher ups/the powerful, I find the Vietnamese news are quite open about the smaller vices and irritations: traffic, prostitution, unethical business practices of the small business. Sometime may be too much so: read an article about, say, prostitution may read like a "complete idiot guide how to" with address, common fees, expert client's need, modus operandi of those "workers", the works .

Ya Anetta thats one of my favorite online Viet newspapper also:

http://tuoitrenews.vn//

Anatta, http://vnexpress.net is an overseas site although in Vietnamese.  There are hundreds of sites in VN language but they are registered outside of VN.  Only .vn is registered in VN.  I am sure there are many more translation of of this news article in Vietnamese in many sites with VN language.  I challenge you to find the related news registered locally.  Vietnemese Language BBC News is extremely resourceful.

docwood wrote:

Anatta, http://vnexpress.net is an overseas site although in Vietnamese.  There are hundreds of sites in VN language but they are registered outside of VN.  Only .vn is registered in VN.  I am sure there are many more translation of of this news article in Vietnamese in many sites with VN language.  I challenge you to find the related news registered locally.  Vietnemese Language BBC News is extremely resourceful.

Docwood

Ha ha. This is akin to claiming that The Gray Lady is controlled by the al-Qaeda. Everyone knows vnexpress.net is a website controlled by the government.

Go click on the contact us link at the bottom of the site, you'll see (in Vietnamese)

Tờ báo có nhiều độc giả nhất Việt Nam
Cơ quan chủ quản: Bộ Khoa học Công nghệ.
Giấy phép: Số 511/GP - BVHTT ngày 25/11/2002.
Tổng biên tập: Thang Đức Thắng

Tòa soạn: Tầng 5, Tòa nhà FPT Cầu Giấy, phố Duy Tân, Phường Dịch Vọng Hậu, Quận Cầu Giấy, Hà Nội.


Roughly translated:
The most widely read news website in Vietnam.
The publisher is the Ministry of Technology and Science, with government permit 511/GP – BVHTT and office in Hanoi.

If you had just bothered to go to the site instead of just judging by its domain name before posting your reply, you'll see immediately their Vietnamese hotline in Hanoi and SGN prominently displayed on the top.

Apropos the vnexpress.net, it just celebrated its 11th anniversary last Sunday.
It claims 17 millions unique visitors and 34 millions pageviews everyday, 250 journalists and various awards from the government. Its newsroom in Hanoi is 1000 m2 as pictured in the below link.

http://vnexpress.net/gl/xa-hoi/2012/02/ … n-11-tuoi/

For those who want to understand more of the Vietnamese press dynamics, here is an account from the founder of Vietnamnet, one of newsites known for pushing the political envelop. It

Not the first time this has happened and wont be the last and not unique to VN either this is from May last year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-13460163

laidbackfreak, Thanks for the story.  I guess reckless do happen every where. 

Anatta,  Thanks for the great research.  You got me indeed.  I owe you a steak dinner, if I ever get to meet you personally.  This looks like some improvement from the old fashion censorship.  I am hoping that they will have more site like this one in the future.  Dot Net sites are registered in the US, which rarely censors anything.  I still see differences in news between English and VN in TuoiTreNews.vn and Thanhniennews.com

This type of news (Plane Door Incident) is really good and nothing more than just to educate the general public about being careful and there are consequences for being careless.  Therefore it should be in most of the other local news (paper and digital), Bao Cong An, Bao Nhan Dan etc . . .  Things are not always as it seems.  My guess is that it depends on who's in charge at the right time and place.  In other words, the rule of laws don't always apply in many situations like, some guys being told it's illegal to do something, but others can do the same without a problem.  Confused??  A few times, I was told at the airport while returning to the US that my DVDs must be reviewed through the cultural inspection process, but If I just paid something, it's okay.  I don't want to say how much was asked but I was glad to negotiate and settle for a 90% discount. . .

Docwood
No problem.

There is difference between publications in Vietnam, even though they all are official. Just like in the US you have newsgroups like the NYT, Washington Post, NPR who tend to be more liberal and groups like Fox, the WSJ who are more conservative, you have similar grouping in Vietnam.
The same goes for op-ed writers in Vietnam, just like you have both conservative (like David Brooks) and liberal (like Paul Krugman) op-ed writers in the NYT.


Here is the link I intended to post yesterday for those who want a more insider account

http://www.hks.harvard.edu/presspol/pub … nguyen.pdf

Thanks very much Anatta for the article.  This is truly a success story.  I was the eyewitness to this development.  I was working for a MNC in the 90's in Saigon.  It was costing lots of money to dial an international number to replicate our Lotus Notes local email server.  Then by May 1998, vnn.vn started providing limited email service to businesses that saved a lot of money in international phone dialing, but we still had to dial the Lotus Notes international number to replicate our worldwide email communications through Lotus Notes in our European HGs., but with less frequency and therefore saved lots of money.  In the 90's a minute of international call cost almost $3.00 calling from Saigon.  Then in October 1998, I read an article in the VN Economic Times that Internet Access would be available by December 1998 in Saigon.  I was very excited and went all over Saigon looking and asking different people about where the internet service being available.  It took a few days, and finally I found the very first one available in the entire HCM city was located at 64 Ly Chinh Thang Street near by the Democracy Traffic Circle.  I was extremely excited at the time and went over to take a look.    It was a small private residence with 2 IBM AT PCs for rent.  The guy that let me used it had light green uniform on.  He looked either a policeman or some government official having 2 private PC to rent in his new private business.  The PC ran pretty slow at the time using a telephone modem.  The guy told me this is the only internet shop available in the Country.  Also in the Summer of 1998, there was the very first PC store that began to open for business selling PCs.  It was called Vi Tinh Saigon located on Nam Ky Khoi Nghia Street near by Le Loi Street in Saigon.  It was a slow but good start.  Getting proper equipment to implement Y2K was a big challenge for me, because the Intel Pentium PCs were not really available in VN until the last 2 months of 1999 and there were many Y2K standards and procedures from the headquarters that could not be applied to VN at the time.  Since there was no body around knowing any PCs at the time, IT management became my additional responsibility on top of my other management responsibilities that I had to work on Saturdays and occasional Sundays while working in VN., but I enjoyed those wonderful memories of working there with many wonderful staffs always willing to learn.

Well, I read the first few pages so far . . .  What a remarkable Success Story.  I will have to read the rest over the weekend. . .  Thanks again Anatta.  You are a really sport.

The vnexpress.com  domain name was bought by a Korean tech consulting company and the web site is hosted in the Bahamas. And it's run by the gov? The world is flat.
whois.domaintools.com/vnexpress.com

Thanks very much for the research, lucasjans.  My observation is that the site is using proxy servers hosted by FPT Vietnam, another national internet service provider.  It looks like they use dot net to make it look like it's from the US and therefore cutting down on reader's prejudice.  Since the government has a heavy grip on media, people tend to distrust the content, that's why they use dot net. . .

I have read this interesting press publication sent by Anatta (Thanks again), about how innovation and technological development tend to force changes that the government is reluctant to make due to fear of losing control of the Vietnamese people within the country.

http://www.hks.harvard.edu/presspol/pub … nguyen.pdf

Here are my comments . . .

Page 15 – Typo as follows . . . The historic visit to the US of PM Khai meeting President Bush at the White House was 2005 and not 1995.

Page 19 – 20% of the Vietnamese population is on-line today.  It's true in terms of physical usage of the internet or computer mostly in internet cafes or internet shops throughout the country.  However, what's not being mentioned is that most of these internet users at the cafes and shops are children (preteens and teens) playing video games only.  To me, this should not be counted as so called “on-line”.  Most English sites were not blocked perhaps due to not having capabilities to do so.  Unlike China which has their own firewall capabilities to block English based media, However, quite often, when I used the internet cafe to check on news back home, there was usually a guy coming out from the back asking me not to use the site any more.  He was obviously watching in the back (was he not understanding English content?).  I usually paid the money and moved on to a better cafe that did not harrass me.  For some reason, Yahoo.com was okay but Excite.com was not okay to look at if I type in the URL for excite.com, it was blocked.  But If I got to excite.com through Yahoo.com, it was not blocked.  I guess Yahoo must have been using their proxy DNS at some point. 

Page 20 – Again this chart is mostly skewed badly because most users at the internet cafe are teens and preteens playing video games.

docwood wrote:

Page 19 – 20% of the Vietnamese population is on-line today.  It's true in terms of physical usage of the internet or computer mostly in internet cafes or internet shops throughout the country.  However, what's not being mentioned is that most of these internet users at the cafes and shops are children (preteens and teens) playing video games only.  To me, this should not be counted as so called “on-line”.  Most English sites were not blocked perhaps due to not having capabilities to do so.  Unlike China which has their own firewall capabilities to block English based media, However, quite often, when I used the internet cafe to check on news back home, there was usually a guy coming out from the back asking me not to use the site any more.  He was obviously watching in the back (was he not understanding English content?).  I usually paid the money and moved on to a better cafe that did not harrass me.  For some reason, Yahoo.com was okay but Excite.com was not okay to look at if I type in the URL for excite.com, it was blocked.  But If I got to excite.com through Yahoo.com, it was not blocked.  I guess Yahoo must have been using their proxy DNS at some point. 

Page 20 – Again this chart is mostly skewed badly because most users at the internet cafe are teens and preteens playing video games.

Docwood
You are certainly welcome. Your observations may be correct a few years back, but no longer correct. Internet usage is certainly prevalent in Vietnam, at least in SGN.

Found this more professional report which claims "Internet user penetration was estimated at an impressive 33% in early 2011." which is somewhat consistent with the 20% penetration back in Oct 2007 (corresponding to a compounding annual growth of roughly 18%)

http://www.budde.com.au/Research/Vietna … casts.html

According to below link, Vietnamese internet users are certainly as sophisticated as other South East Asian countries. It also pledges Vietnam internet penetration of over 30%. (VnExpress, according to them, is the second most popular website).

http://www.digitalbuzzblog.com/infograp … ats-facts/

My observations of internet usage in SGN and Thailand (BKK, Chiangmai,..) are quite consistent of those reports: People in SGN are very adept in using internet, on par with (or even more) than the Thai users. I have not seen much government intervention (apart from their partial success blocking facebook). In fact, I get more blockage from the US websites themselves not wanting users to to watch US content from abroad because of copyrights (e.g., Hulu, Netflix, Amazon,...)

Also, in case you have not heard about the new McKinsey report about Vietnam coming out last week, here is an article from the same authors in the Foreign Policy, citing strong Internet usage being one of the 10 things outsiders don't know about Vietnam.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 … r?page=0,6

"7. Vietnam's young generation is going online.
Vietnam's population is young, well-educated, and increasingly online. Mobile subscriptions in Vietnam grew nearly 70 percent per year between 2000 and 2010 compared with less than 10 percent per year in the United States in the same decade. By the end of 2010, Vietnam had 170 million telephone subscribers, of which 154 million had mobile subscriptions.

At 31 percent, Internet penetration in Vietnam is much lower than in other Asian states such as Malaysia (55 percent) and Taiwan (72 percent). But this is changing rapidly. Broadband subscriptions in Vietnam increased from 0.5 million in 2006 to around 3.8 million in 2010, the same year that 3G subscriptions hit 7.7 million. Once the telecom infrastructure catches up, mobile and Internet use is likely to explode. Already, 94 percent of Vietnam's Internet users access news online. More than 40 percent of users access the web every day."

The full McK report can be read here

http://www.mckinsey.com/Insights/MGI/Re … in_Vietnam